the former ambassador to the united states, and as it is great privilege to talk to you, thank you very much for finding the time. thank you for having me. now, you know, last week i spoke to your colleague from india and predictably his reaction to what's going on in afghanistan was very, very bitter. but as far as i can gather on your side, it's quite the opposite. you wrote recently that pakistan and afghanistan for the last 20 years has been proven accurate. what makes you believe that? because by this, than all of is indicated that there should be a political solution. because we talk military ripley was not possible, not desirable for 17 and a half years. you know, just it did not believe until it decided to engage in box with the taliban and her there. well it was we actually want and that even the afghan government,

under the factions would also be associated because an inclusive piece is something that we would be what invested because bucks on had been so severely impacted by the people. if you know that, i'm glad that finally, the political process started. but unfortunately, the rush of benny did not engage in enough gone talk seriously. and the rest is history. but even now on message, because he thought it on should be that distributed to some additional big everybody along was that we need it. peaceful son. let us touch a far as they type it then and chemist uninvited. sorry, you know, he's a controversial subject. we all know from historic experience that the athens are fiercely independent than they do not submit easily to a foreign fashion. but i think it's also well known that there is some degree of understanding between pakistan and the taliban. how big is that understanding or influence in your estimation and how can one talk to the taliban

so that they would listen rather than resist the taliban and bulk of the african balaban gander is and has been in afghanistan all alone. and we have been maintaining that there are team 1000000 refugees and sometimes on valuable, don't visit bogus and that's the only leverage we had on them. unfortunately, the united states government and the afghan is done. government kept on do pekin this month era. their daily bonham shaped trees in pakistan which was not the fact . and as a result, they were using this to justify their lack of success or failure in afghanistan of their military strategy. and my son was consistently saying that no back to earth look inside afghanistan or all the solutions and not in pakistan,

bancwest on actually would not like to have any proxy or any previous in effect on including oh, with all due respect, ambassador in that really am geopolitically on is because i know all of the countries that have security interest in afghanistan, they do have certain proxy forces there. i mean, and that makes sense from the point of view of both intelligence and security. so how can you claim, or argue that pakistan would have none, or would want to have known when your basic security so tightly lead to that country? i think it's important at this point in time for every country or more. so the legion look on piece of man is standing neighbors of badness than to start respecting of, understand as an independent sovereign country. where we have seen that interventions most why a soviet union than by united states. every man is man, i think we should give the people who understand it big or so. my sense is that

there should be no proxies enough but fun by any country. and i know that india didn't use of swale against pakistan, but i am saying that no gun, montoya, or any strategic objectives, any technical, that's the best treatment and respect we can give to the people that i want to tell them came to power some 25 years ago, pakistan was one of the very few countries officially recognized that government. do you think history? i will repeat this out. and if so, how quickly? i hope it does not because i think the taliban offer yesterday. is there a way to do ology, and this time around this seem to be more market. they have made certain commitments. there made a commitment that there will be amnesty for all they have made a commitment that women will be allowed to work and study. and then they will not allow a dentist entities to, to make good to use

a full on soil against anyone. and there also are sort of committed that we have an inclusive company. now all these for them to me, it, it, if they honor that i, you can see it very positive response from all countries, especially the regional countries and international community. but if the door any follow on those for commitments i, i think that they will not be doing any service 2 of them. i think the issue of our international recognition is a very thorny and a very fast one, not only for the taliban but also for the so called international community. because everybody has very strong reasons to do that. and not to do that, as long as the taliban is listed as a terrorist organization by the united nations. we have to recognize that any context with formally speaking is a violation of international law. so my question to you is, would you rather see all those countries?

russia, pakistan, india, china, the united states. again, everyone who is in asia perform is involved in the region. i'm attaining certain contacts with the talent, and would you rather continue seeing them do that covertly? or rather come into compliance with the international law that they themselves created a few years ago. yeah, you see the united states was the 1st one to, while it's that the brother 67 un security council sanctions regime. and this started talking to the 31st over 3 then all honestly. so that was kind of recognition dog the taliban, as a political intern, go to entity, i don't tank now. people can turn around and asked by august on these are the other, why are you talking to them? they all have to talk to them because we're we needed the end of the days. he's full of granny's thought and that can happen until you talk to doctor the taliban.

and of course, other african infections. i fully understand the logic from the real politic perspective, but i'm asking you about the respect of international lawyers. it's not about the americans. i mean, unless you treat them as a sort of a little guardian of that law. but if we, as international community, russia, pakistan, and other countries, if we read that international law, should we deal with that moment? not from reality, reality perspective. but from the, from the legal perspective and the perspective and absolutely legally speaking, if taliban i'm now involved in a gun is done. and they have given certain commitments and a bid on of those commitments. and i think there should be an, a mentor counterpart commitment from the actual community interest them from that that the sanctions regime. and i think that that would probably be a necessity. now there were just like pakistan in northern india were part of the

one states. i think you would recognize that that country has deep connections to india and security interest. as you rush and security interest to pakistan, security interest. i'm pretty much everyone who is in the region has say in afghanistan, do you think all these varied and sometimes very opposite? think your hinge as could be well aligned with some semblance of harmony. i mean, the only alignment that he'll bring be store every one blue being diary janisa for that is that if offline is done, is we are seeing that there's been military action that have been spin on whatever else was going on. we have seen that it has led well that in step son bo, for i believe that every country, every country should respect the sovereignty of,

of an understand alert to let this piece be a full on lead and a plan on. however, that said, i think the legion has a responsibility to facilitate that these who assist the land for ministry cruise, who government, and done bit affairs as a normal country. now speaking about regions responsibility, a few weeks ago, indian prime minister there under motor was addressing one of the big russian conferences. and he specifically mentioned the situation in afghanistan and mentioned this indian concept of sun gamma. we can sanskrit means the confines of several big rivers. do you think? you think that's just a beautiful rhetorical tool or is it something that has strategic necessity or perhaps strategic conditions to be realized for the benefit of your age as a hall, b. m, a national point of august on law make board of con is done is harder for

a sure that if your heart is weak, the entire continent will be weak. so there have been different phrases to describe the importance of punishment. there's no doubt about that one is done as a religion connecting the sub regions of south asia, recitation, central asia. there's no doubt about color with that said, i think i'm on my saying, but we did not see india playing in it, playing a positive role. there been use of forgotten intelligence to sponsor and be bugs on elements like that. he get to live on august on like blue, just on liberation, army and others to create in standard inbox. and we were constantly saying that the non government must not give up space to india, who is using the land soil to create a double squeeze against bux, i'm from east and west it from situation. been for, i don't know what mr. m. what he had in mind when he said that he did a some them, but probably it is important that we realize that we need this sunday to be more

useful now because it is one of my son can ensure more stability knowledge. now thinking about stability as civil governments and the world for the most part has now assumed wait and see attitude towards the talent of each. i know that some in pakistan have criticized and dangerous. i wonder what do you think would work better? sort of waiting as being the talent to prove itself as a legitimate government. and only that for them funds an expertise to rebuild the country or on the country. offer assistance now and by that sort of pay to wait for the town to grow into a legitimate government. i think humanitarian assistance should be extended to regardless because the people must not be there must not be allowed to land in gal desperate situation. i think that international community and the region countries for do anyway and ask for technical assistance to run the government and do and to

financial assistance at mice. it is my sense that all countries of the region are already talking to each other. they're coordinating because they want to coordinate and response. i think there is an expectation in amongst the regional countries that lead now that united states has moved away. and it is their responsibility to assist manage, thought, establish conditions of nice well in the been in the country are the same time i think been for austin, demands all united states to not to abandon of sunday responsibility. they were here for 20 years. they need to support a condition of peace in afghanistan, and i wrote them to stay engaged. and henceforth, silva for in a denison has been a recipient or for an assistance for more than 4 days. and i think it's fair to say that it has never been efficiently used or even appreciated. and i, her,

i heard you say recently in the one of his species that garrison has everything it needs to make its own living and handsomely so. and preserves independence and sovereignty in that way. can you speak more about that? yes, certainly, i think so because the amazon is an inch country in many ways. no one is there, you know, 2 august on it is. it has access to box on the ports. are it furnishing by trade with bugs on and also be lead on and others? and one is on is regina mendo saw that if the conditions of peace can be established, i'm sure china and others would like to invest. the ne, also know that a plan is done can earn a lot from the transit fees if it allows the energy central issue to send it. and as you flows to south asia grande, stump b, b, i gas pipeline does be name i did as you from a plan is from budget on and get

a get this done. so i see that if this initial free is, can be offered and thought about, are able to use the condition that expectations from the regional candy. i see that it will be an inch going to be it can be a rich content or both of our short short break on these very positive. and now we'll be back to the discussion in just a few moments station. ah, no one, no, no, no. hon. who joke, luna? what goal? morse?

real to what the ship unit 731 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever. no real good. you know to push it with you or should i go to that they're not eligible? no new son, new rochelle, he moved monica to new motor thought is meant new to move one of up on there and i got all my sale coming up. i go on monday. i wish to know about julie. whoa, whoa, new a more or less than

a point to do as you want on this one. she my a new on on site is and more a lot. i'll put them out that they give us a welcome back to all the parts with my child to be directed general of the institute of strategic studies about and pakistan's form ambassador to the united states ambassador. before the break, we were talking about a unique position as a transit country, but you also mentioned that it's sitting on very large mineral beaches. it has

large deposits are precious and rare materials, particularly as we know that in the day and age china and the west are embroiled in that very, very big battle for the strategic control of those deposits. how do you see that playing out and the next few years and they can do that as a last name or as occurs as far as future development of i've got is concerned. i think it depends how it turns out. a united states sir competition with china, and i hope that it does not enter offline his son and his member. well, i believe a plan is done, and the people of afghanistan deserved her dad bare minerals, his exploited in a more systematic manner and the fluids off bag development. go to the directly to the people off of that country and in there should not be

a competition or rivalry between any countries. and it was 3 or more countries, or that i think people of afghanistan, at least we owe it to them because for 40 years they have suffered enormously. we owe it to them. and so if conditions of peace can be establish an honest abolition, it is my sense that they're not both china and branch united states to a corporate america would likely invest. and he's a big company. there are different areas where it can be invested. and i think those kind of investment and one more area, if i meant dimension extension all for a c back, dyna, pakistan economic. got it or both china and bugs that have given this indication that we would like to extend this to a funny sound. in fact, if you come from the other, the southern port in the indian ocean upward, the 1st pork plus your own point is a kind of city of cannot. if you just spend a rest a little bit. and if you keep going, and you can also, you know,

benefit the east of that is that my sense is that the, that did it a desire amongst the regional companies and hopefully amongst the restaurant is data for understand should be a place where we should invest and let the fruits descend to the people on amazon as well. well, if you also to handle the ability of the taliban to manage countries, enormous treasures people. and this leads me to my next question because we know the time as sale is by governing. even in accordance with serial law is a very different than a very tedious challenge. a town on fighting on foreign invaders versus a taliban running its own domestic affairs. do you think there will be different than i do? they have to be different. fighting in a buying force is one thing, but lending it countries is another thing. and that is why all these 4 conditions

and commitments that they had made them who made that most commitment and the international community. and that is including my country, have an expectation from about $1.00 to $1.00 of those commitments because we believe that if they don't, then you know, it would be difficult for them and they would need technical assistance, financial assistance, all the have to go in the country but for that, they have to show that they're ready for a national division surrounding of a hearing wars or before about growing internal strives. those taliban fighters that mean controlling the streets of capital and other african cities on, on this same talent functionaries negotiated a deal with the american c. doha. do you think the tower than later,

to spend the last 20 years and do you think they have enough authority to shave the van from the ground a we'll have to reconcile with because fighting force is one and a good thing force is another, a just transition so far in the last 20 years times prediction and of course one made by anyone on spring. but that did not happen. i think the leader continued to enjoy the authority or no better. no, he can keep the won't gather in go on. this is something that i will teach, i would not like to enter into speculation rather than this bill that i do hope that they are able to manage the country in a manner that it brings peace. otherwise they all. busy sent to and we all center.

now you mentioned before, all these commitments that they found and made so far and a gave the international community, you know, the kind of phrases that community wanted to hear on women's visor. lucidity, although all those now say yes to be, you know, put into actual policies on catch phrase that i think is because the missing from all the statements is democracy or democratic transition. do you think the talent could and should be prior to you really fact and they kind of democratic procedure is that the previous governments maintain well, i am certainly know on in a position to dictate or i think it has to be a fun, critical order should be good because i believe that the,

even if the on the action would go in the democratic order, they will probably be been gone. 6 your special value. i have to say, no, i am. i am going to be more than this because if you are expecting the non government will be in the image. ok, a see, and i'm sorry, this is a wrong expectation. you will have to see if one is done. you won't be a big julie entities you've gone to you was the democratic system on both branch involved and the political order. that's my my sense. okay, let me know that i'm looking for a moment because earlier in the discussion we mentioned this wait and see approach as many countries have adopted. so it, is there anything in your view that will won't be able to see?

and i'm not coming from the taliban. i personally feel that if the dial a bond go back to their ways of 198990 s. when they were involved. i don't think they will be serving themselves any favor any. but they've got to be more inclusive, you've got to carry others along, and they want to honor those commitment. that's my sense. if the door i, i'm afraid there would be difficulties and i woke that they follow through their committee. and finally, if i'm a, let me draw on your experience as pakistan's ambassador to the united states and ask you specifically about a possible ties with the united states under the new m administration fee, or mr. jaime, who was pointed to the interior ministry just by being on the most want at least, and 5 credible before that he may still be holding an american hostage g thing,

washington. it will still want some sort of a relationship with the new or a capital. or do you think that that relationship may already have been established? the americans have been talking to with the taliban for the aust. 2 and a half years and nothing has really changed in that sense. and since the deal in february 2020, it was the same bond and they can go to their d n. now that they've been drawn, there has been in boston, the mon, the american association. from all these you can do that. you should stay engaged, that you all the people who understand what blood has been shed. so much destruction has happened. and you need to support a process, offer you peace and development in afghanistan. how will that happen in ship

if, if a gun, if united states actually disengages it from on completely, then i'm sure there will be problems because you're not sure. preeminent bought on the evidence sponsibility. so much of the but i think it will not be fair but the unites are say, oh, it's a regional problem. then these are countries 100. we have nothing to do with that. i don't think that's a good idea. i think i just need to stay engaged. i think that agent is going to need to play that part and all of that in service of the city, getting the scene of nissan. do you think the united states, after all the humiliation that it hasn't during the withdrawal, the, you know, those nasty and science risk seems from the airport. you be able to come to the regional table as one of many, certainly an important player and vital player player, but one of many are ready to consult and maybe engage with others. or do you think this on, you know, old american attitude and

a lot of them are going to send in the 1st place is still there. i think all countries and i can certainly speak for august on have been had been constantly telling the united states that we would expect is responsible for all i think the idea was. busy that if you draw them in his b, what happened? you know, but unfortunately, debate would doubt that it just ended up making a deep goal. and we saw that valuable board in just 11 days and all of their expectations and random and end up on national maybe or turned out to be false. now, united states should, i think in the division other countries awoke out a strategy. the government get us to see that there is a more stable political dispensation than the one they formed. and that's jeremy,

so much money and which was not sustained, even little pressure. and the guy, much not me, did not put on all any fight at all. so i do, you has a responsibility still to stay engaged with. well, i'm, after we have to leave it there. i hope you're the latest you will be, jack indicated just as much as back of those strategy. you know, guys on, over the last 20 years, i really hope that americans come to this region as somebody who wants to contribute rather than somebody who wants to control anyway, we have to live there. thank you very much for your very much. thank you. thank you . and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on wells apart. ah mm hm.

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crying about him dying? that's usually what it's about. it's just the sheer unfairness of at all. ah, top stories, this are not say at least 12 who reportedly killed more than 30 injured and a blasted cobbles. the 2nd biggest most today, the taliban saying it's detained. 3 people allegedly responsible it was an extraordinary disaster. if we didn't have a president that was so adult, you all would be fired. i don't think anyone controls anything. this president says about afghanistan on in top storage the week just gone, u. s. low mike has lombard president, bide not as top ross to of what some in congress cool washington's humiliating withdrawal from afghanistan. we asked though if the whole afghan campaign might be a big failure than just the pull out itself. a bombshell report, let.