ah mm hm. mm. mm. a welcome to all of our, the most international players formulating that reaction to use withdrawal from a gas that is quite a challenge to many profit cons to tightly intertwined. they are huge notable exceptions. while the india decry as the worst possible outcome of bending before terrorists, pakistani celebrated as an indication of that on strategy and a recognition of the reality on the ground. last week we brought you from the valley. so let's now room 2 is about to speak to a that my child re,

director general of the institute of strategic status is a former foreign secretary of pakistan and the former ambassador to the united states. and that's, it is great privilege to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time. thank you for having me. now, you know, last week i spoke to your colleague from n, predictably, he's reaction to what's going on in afghanistan was very, very bitter. but as far as i can gather on your side, it's quite the opposite. you wrote based on b a, the last 20 years has been proven accurate. what makes you believe that? because focused on always indicated that there should be a political solution. because we talk military ripley was not possible, not desirable for 17 and a half years. you know, just it did not believe until we decided to engage in docs with the taliban and her

there will it was. we actually want that even the of gone come into the factions would also be associated because an inclusive piece is something that we were we were interested because boxed on had been so severely impacted by the staple. if you know that, i'm glad that finally, the political process started. but unfortunately, the rush of benny did not engage in enough gone talk seriously. and the rest is history. but even now our message to the thought about should be that distribute inclusive gum and disappeared. everybody along was that we need it peaceful effects then let us as a far as they type in afghanistan and by, sorry, you know, isn't controversial subjects. we all know from historic experience that the athens are fiercely independent than they do not submit easily to avert foreign fashion. but i think it's also well known that there is some degree of understanding between

pakistan and the taliban. how big is that understanding or influence in your estimation and how can one talk to the taliban so that they would listen rather than resist the taliban and bulk of the african balaban gander is and has been in afghanistan all alone. and we have been maintaining that there are team 1000000 refugees and sometimes of on valuable. don't visit bogus. and that's the only leverage we had on them. unfortunately, the united states government and the afghan is than government kept on de beacon this monta, their daily bond have shaped trees in pakistan, which was not the fact she's her. and her as it is, are there will using this to justify did lack of success or their failure in a fight on of their military strategy. and my son was consistently saying that no

go back to earth, look inside of plan is done, or all the solutions and not in by august that bank a son actually would not like to have any proxy or any previous in of including a. so with all due respect, ambassador, is that really politically honest, because i know all of the countries that have security interests in afghanistan, they do have certain proxy forces there. i mean, and that, that makes sense from the point of view of both intelligence and security. so how can you claim, or argue that pakistan who have none or would want to have known when your basic security so tightly lead to that country? i think it's important at this point in time for every country, all, most, all the region countries of, of man is on the neighbors of man is done to start respecting of, understand as an independent sovereign country. we have seen that interventions

postway, soviet union than by united states. every man is than i think we should give to people who understand it big or so. my sense is that there should be no proxies enough done by any country. and i know that india didn't use of swale against august on, but i am saying that no can look montoya or any strategic objectives. any technical that's the best treatment and respect we can give to the people that i want to tell them came to power on 25 years ago. pakistan. it was one of the very few countries to officially recognize that government. the thing history i will repeat itself and if so, how quickly? i hope it does not because i think the taliban offer yesterday. is there a way to do ology and this time around this seem to be more market. they have made certain commitments. there made a commitment that there will be amnesty for all they have made a commitment that women will be allowed to work and study. and then they will not

allow a dentist entities to make good to use a full on soil against anyone. and they have also a sort of committed that we have an inclusive company. now, all these for them to me it. and if they honor that i, you can see it very positive response from all countries, especially the regional countries and international community. but if the door any follow on board or commitments i, i think that they will not be doing any service 2 of them. i think the issue of a international recognition is a very thorny and very fast. the one not only for the taliban but also for the so called international community, because everybody has very strong reasons to do that. and not to do that. as long as the taliban is listed as a terrorist organization by the united nations. we have to recognize that any contacts with formally speaking is a violation of international law. so my question to you is,

would you rather see all those countries, russia, pakistan, india, china, the united states. again, everyone who is in any shape or form is involved in the region, i'm attaining certain contacts and when they tell them, would you rather continue seeing them do that covertly, or rather come into compliance with the international law that they themselves created a few years ago. yeah, you see the united states was the 1st one to, while it's that the brother 67 un security council sanctions regime. and this started talking to the 31st over 3, then all monthly. so that was kind of recognition doggy dollar bond as a political intern, go to entity, i don't tank now. people can turn around and asked by august on these are the other,

why are you talking to them? they're all have to do to them because we're, we needed the end of the days. he's full of renaissance and that can't happen until you brought to the doctor, the dial one and of course, other african factions. i fully understand the logic from the real politic perspective. but i'm asking you about the respect of international lawyers. it's not about the americans. i mean, unless you treat them as a sort of little guardian of that law. but if we, as international community, russia, pakistan, and other countries, if we read that international law, should we deal with that moment, not from reality, reality perspective, but from the, from the legal perspective and the perspective and absolutely legally speaking. and i'm now involved in a for gun is done and they have given certain commitments and it did on of those commitments. and i think this would be an, a recommend a counterpart commitment from the international community to be honest them from

that, that the sanctions regime. and i think that that would probably be a necessity. now there were just like pakistan in northern india were part of one states. i think you would recognize that that country has deep connections to india and security interest as you rush and security interest to pakistan, security interest, and pretty much everyone who is in the region has say, in afghanistan, do you think all these varied and sometimes very opposite security interest could be well aligned with some semblance of harmony. i mean the only alignment that he'll bring be store. everyone will be in diary janisa for that is that if offline is done, is we are seeing that there's been military action that i've been spin on. whatever else was going on. we have seen that it has led well the instant before i believe

that every country, every country a should respect the sovereignty of an understand alert to let this piece be a full on lead and a plan on hollywood that said, i think the legion has a responsibility to facilitate that these who assist the land foreman is mcgrooves, have gone and done bit affairs as a normal country. now speaking about regency responsibility, a few weeks ago, indian prime minister there under monday was addressing one of the big russian conferences. and he specifically mentioned the situation in afghanistan and mentioned this indian concept of sun gamma vision. sanskrit means the confluence of several big rivers. do you think? do you think that's just a beautiful rhetorical tool or is it something that has strategic necessity or perhaps strategic conditions to be realized for the benefit of your age as a hall?

the m. m. national void of august on the la make by gord of con, is done, is hard to fish here. that if your heart is weak, the entire continent will be weak. so there have been different phrases to describe the importance of money on. there's no doubt about it that a plan is done as a religion connecting the sub regions of south asia, recitation central asia, is no doubt about hollywood. that said, i think i'm on my saying, but we did not see india playing in it, playing a positive role there. they intend to use a foot on intelligence to sponsor and be boxed on elements like that. he get element august on like blue, just on liberation, army and others to create in standard inbox. and we were constantly saying that the of non government must not give up space to india, who is using the launch coil to create a double squeeze against bux, i'm from east and west it from situation. been for,

i don't know what mr. m. worthy had in mind when he said that he did a some them, but probably it is important that we realize that we need this sunday to be more peaceful now because it is one of 9 is done, can ensure more stability knowledge. now thinking about stability as civil governments and the world for the most part has now assumed wait and see attitude towards the talent which i know that some in pakistan have criticized and dangerous . i wonder what do you think would work better? sort of waiting and seeing the talon to prove itself as a legitimate government and only that for them funds and expertise to rebuild the country or on the country. offer assistance now and by and i sort of pay to wait for the talent to grow into a legitimate government. i think humanitarian assistance should be extended regardless because the people must not be there must not be allowed to land into

desperate situation. i think that the international community and the regional countries for 2 anyway, and ask for technical assistance to run the government and do and to financial assistance at mice. it is my sense that all countries of the region are already talked to each other, the coordinating, because they want to coordinate and response. i think there is an expectation in amongst the regional countries that led now that united has moved away and it is their responsibility to assist of man is done establish conditions of peace. well, in the been in the country are the same time i think been for austin, demands all united states, not to abandon of sunday responsibility. they were here for 20 years. they need to support a condition of peace enough. got his son and i wrote them to stay engaged, and henceforth, silva for an a dentist and have been a recipient or for an assistance for more than for the kids. and i think it's fair

to say that it has never been efficiently used or even appreciated. and i, her, i heard you say a recently, in one of his speech, his dad garrison has everything. it needs to make its own living and handsomely so and preserve its independence and sovereignty in that way. can you speak more about that? yes, certainly, i think so because a lot of fun is a rich country. in many ways, no one is going on to pakistan. it has access to box on the porch, a flourishing bilateral trade with bogus on and also be lead on and others. and everyone is on his regina window so that if the conditions of peace can be established, i'm sure china and, and, and others would like to invest. the ne, also know that a plan is duncan and a lot from the transit fees. if it allows these energy central is here to send

b b, i guess pipeline does be name i did as you from, of the, from budget on and get this done. so i see that if this initial fears can be all what and thought about are able to use the condition that extra fissions from the regional candy. i see that it will be an inch going to be it can be a, it's a very short short break. on this very positive note will be back to the discussion in just a few moments station. ah, what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic development. only personally,

i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk with welcome back to all the parties with my child, read director general of the institute of strategic studies about on pakistan's form ambassador to the united states ambassador. before the break, we were talking about a sounds reaches unique position as a transit country, but you also mention that they are sitting on dairy. large min beaches has

large deposits of precious and rare earth materials, particularly as we know that in the day and age china and the west are embroiled in very, very big battles for the strategic control of those deposits. how do you see that playing out in the next few years and they can see that as a, as a blessing or a curse as far as the future development of garrison is concerned, i think it depends how it turns out. a united states sir competition with china, and i hope that it does not enter offline his son and his member. well, i believe a plan is done, and the people of afghanistan deserved her dad bare minerals, his exploit in, in a more systematic manner. and the fluids off bad development. go to the directly to the people off of that country and in there should not be

a competition on rivalry between any country and it to war 3 or more countries or bad. i think people of afghanistan, at least we owe it to them because for 40 years they have suffered enormously. we owe it to them. so if conditions of peace can be establish an honest abolition, it is my sense that they're both china and branch united states to be corporate america would likely invest and is a big company. there are different areas where it can be invested. and i think those kind of investment and one more area if i meant me mention extension all for a c pack, diana focused on economic got it or both china and bugs that have given this indication that we would like to extend this. do understand, in fact, if you come from the other, the southern port in the indian ocean upward, the 1st work of trust, your own point is a kind of city of cannot. if you just spend a rest

a little bit. and if you keep going, and you can also, you know, benefit the east of that is that my sense is that there, that there is a desire amongst the regional companies and hopefully amongst the restaurant, it's better for understand should be a place where we should invest and let the fruits descend to the people off of amazon as well. well, if you will also to handle the ability of the taliban to manage countries, enormous treasures afford it. people and this leads me to my next question because we know this fight is by governing. even in accordance with sure real law is very different than their tedious challenge. a towel bond fighting on foreign invaders versus a taliban running its own domestic affairs. do you think there will be different than i do? they have to be different fighting and i go buying force is one thing,

but plenty of countries is another thing. and that is why all these 4 conditions and commitments that they had made them who made that commitment and the international community. and that is including my country have an expectation from of about $1.00 to $1.00 of those commitments. because we believe that if they don't, then you know, it would be difficult for them and they would need technical assistance, financial assistance, all the help that they're going to be going to, or for that they have to show that they're ready for a national division surrounding a hearing wars or before about growing internal strives. those taliban fighters, that's me. patrolling the streets of capital and other and cities on, on this same talent functionaries negotiated the deal with the american c.

doha, do you think the tower than later to spend the last 20 years and do you think they have enough authority to shave the man from the ground? a will have to reconcile with because fighting force is one and a good thing force is another, a transition. so in the last 20 years times prediction and of course one made by anyone on spring. but that did not happen. i think the leader continued to enjoy the authority or no, no, he can keep the won't gather in go on. this is something that i will teach. i would not like to enter into speculation whether it be done this be on that. i do hope that they are able to manage the country in a manner that it brings peace otherwise they all. busy send to lou and we all stand

. now you mentioned before, all the commitments that they found been made so far and a gave the international community, you know, the kind of phrases that community wanted to hear on women's rights and city. although, although that is a yes to be, you know, put into actual policies on catch phrase that i think it's because the missing from all the statements is democracy and democratic transition. do you think the talent could, should be prior to that? and the kind of democratic procedure is that the previous african governments maintain but i am certainly know on, in a position to dictate or i think it has to work on what it should be. because i believe that the,

even if the on the action would go in the democratic order, they will probably be been gone. 6 special value. i have to say, no, i am. i am going to be more than this. because if you are expecting the non government will be in the image, ok to live. and i'm sorry, this is a wrong expectation. you will have to see on a entities you've gone to you. what was the democratic system on both understand it evolved and the political order. that's my my sense. ok, let me be a demo that i'm looking for a moment because earlier in the discussion we mentioned this wait and see approach at many countries have adopted. so is there, is there anything in your view that they will won't be able to see and i'm not

coming from the taliban. i personally feel that if the tyler bond go back to their ways of 1990 s when they were involved, i don't think they're going to be serving themselves any favor any. but they've got to be more inclusive. they've got to carry others along. and they go to on those commitment, that's my sense. if the dog i am a fair would be difficulties and i will follow through their company. and finally, if i may let me draw on your experience as pakistan's ambassador to the united states and ask you specifically about a possible ties with the united states onto the new interior met ministration. a mr. honey, who was pointed to the interior ministry despite being on the most want at least, and is by credible before that he may still be holding an american hostage g thing

washington. it will still want some sort of a relationship with the new or a capital. or do you think that that relationship may already have been established? the americans have been talking to with the taliban for the auster 2 and a half years and nothing has really changed in that sense. and since the deal, in february 2020, it was the same bond and they can look at their b. m. now that they've been drawn, that has been in austin, the mon, the american association from all these countries that you should stay engaged, that you, all the people who understand what blood has been shed. so much destruction has happened. and you need to support the process, offer you peace and development in afghanistan. how will that happen in ship

if, if a gun, if united states actually disengages it says from a non completely, then i'm sure there will be problems because you're not sure that preeminent bought on the evidence sponsibility so much of the but, and so i think it will not be fair, but the answer say oh, it's a regional problem. then the regional countries 100 we have nothing to do with that . i don't think that's a good idea. i think i just need to stay engaged. i think the regional countries need to play that part and all of that in service of the city getting be seen of nissan. do you think the united states, after all the humiliation that it has endured during the withdrawal, the, you know, those nasty and science from rick seen from the airport getting you be able to come to the regional table as one of many, certainly an important player. and vital player player, but one of many are ready to consult and maybe can gauge with others. or do you

think this, you know, old american attitude that a lot of them are going to send in the 1st place is still there. i think all countries and i can certainly speak for august on have been had been constantly telling the united states that we would expect is responsible for all i think the idea of all. busy that if united golden in his it could be what happened? you know, but unfortunately, debate would doubt that it just ended up making a deeper goal. and we saw that on board in just 11 days and all did expectation that's gone. don't end up on national. maybe or turned out to be false . now, united states should, i think in the division of the countries awoke out a strategy, the government. but us to see the, did it a more stable when it goes dispensation than the one i mean,

they formed and shared a bit so much of money and which was not sustained, even little pressure. and the guy, much not me, did not put up at all any fight at all. so i do you have the responsibility still to stay engaged with? well, i'm, after we have to leave it there. i hope you're the latest you will be, jack indicated, just as much as back is the strategy, you know, guys done over the last 20 years. i really hope that americans come to this region as somebody who wants to contribute rather than somebody who wants to control anyway. we have to live there. thank you very much for your a much. thank you. thank you, and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on wells apart. ah mm

ah, what happened? i make no, certainly no borders to nationalities. and you guys as a merge, we don't have a therapy. we don't have a vaccine. the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be doing better. every one is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel

very proud that we are in it together. ah, the offshore assets of hundreds of the world's most powerful and richest people are revealed in the biggest ever league of the such data called the pandora papers. and while it confirms the us as a top will, will tax haven no well known american people or firms are mentioned dislike. president biden's pledge clamped down on tax evasion. also at least 12 people are reportedly killed in more than 30. would it in a plastic cobbles and the 2nd biggest mosque, taliban says it has detained 3 people, allegedly responsible and plus in our review of the week. extraordinary disaster.