managing editor, fergus, she'll joins me now from washington, d. c. thank you so much reg server. joining us just before we get into the tip of the iceberg of these complex and voluminous revelations, just for the sake of the poorest people watching this, the significance of them in what it tells us about elite and the very idea of democracy around the world. war we know about the ocean world is it drains trillions of dollars from the economies of countries around the world and the consequences. so these are poorer how schools, poorer schools for universities. and it's a recognized problem. it's a problem that governments around the world have said that they intend to tackle. and what we're showing now is that any efforts to tackling have failed. now, there has been some publicity about individuals, obviously listed, and there are so many, i mean, you can tell me how much data there is. obviously there's been immediate reaction

from some saying where the names of the richest people in the world is it because they just use tax avoidance. in plain sight, we know of the big oligarch, silicon valley, billionaires who do use tax avoidance. as a matter of course, when we're, we're in the fortunate position, you're saying that some of those names are in the pandora papers. we have the names of more than a 100 billionaires from and scores of countries. and we also have the names of more than $330.00 our tissues and high level public officials from scores of countries. so the pen or paper is have shown for a friend way in an unprecedented way, the entanglement of power and uber wealth with the offshore world. well, let's get to the politicians in a 2nd, but i mean, are you going to make this database really available to be searched like wiki league or because i can't seem to be able to get a link at the moment. so the i,

j has as a database called the offshore leaks database in which the public, anybody can access information about our past projects. some information from this, the pandora, this will be produced in the offshore next database. we don't produce at all because firstly, because there's 2 vonsha, it's 12000000 documents, but also because we only publish in the public interest. and so the names that will appear in the offshore next database has those that are public interest, right? so it's redacted in some way, because obviously some of the billionaires that people might know of jeff bezos, i don't know, just thinking over random they, they haven't been revealed in the pandora babies at all. i can tell you that jeff s c is not in there. we looked hard. he doesn't, doesn't feature. oh, but no. the reason me we, we don't republish everything is because there are legitimate reasons for using the offshore world. what we try to focus on is secrecy. and my secrecy is

a problem and what we know from past projects and from this one is secrecy is a massive problem when it comes to politicians. secrecy is a massive pop up problem when it comes to oligarchs. ok, but how is it different then from the paradise babies in the panama papers? it's very good question and i think the significant differences are the 2. the 1st one is the number of politicians. so it's fast, it's $300.00 more than $330.00. and it's more than an m $35.00 world leaders and they're only the ones we have found. it's really difficult to find them so that because the, the, the system is so opaque and the documents themselves are. so our covert that it's hard. so that's the 1st one said, says that it shows the political, global, political in town, entanglement. they are sure of which a shoot. and the 2nd one, which is really significant, is it shows the involvement of the u. s. in the offshore world as an ever before. yeah. biden's home state of delaware, south dakota, who had,

who would have thought, let's get on to morris johnson, says the speaking at this conference in register today, i should say i raised some of the names that you reveal here on a, on the b b. c. question time program, how much a russian money is sloshing around the conservative party, say in the documents and that that the majority of them, the largest number of people in the documents are russian. i came, those are particular reason why they're russian. one of the reasons is that trying to get the money out of the country because they're concerned about vladimir putin and his regimes. but what it shows at the same time is a lot of this money is ending up in london. and some of it is ending up in from middle a man's in the tory party coffers. and so the question lat raises. it's weird. there's the money that goes to detroit arctic. com tron and this is the question that the baby see yourself are raising. now, you say afraid of vladimir putin,

i presume you mean like people like her. what can you can, who is wanted in russia, and these people are wanted on charges of corruption back in russia, yet they come over here apparently, and well. well, they admit no wrong doing then bankroll, i mean the names are dominant. rab richie soon act morris johnson. these people have benefited from money that can be extrapolated back to, well, as was the russian government might say stolen. who knows? to work with a problem in secrecy. it's a serious problem for politics and word. so in the same way that russian money adds up in the u. k, venezuelan money ends up in spain. and the money from venezuela has clearly been misappropriated because it's in hundreds of millions and it ends up in spain and

the crash and, and this in, in, in the u. k. some of the biggest party down as for the tory parties and for the tory parking are russians. and some of those have, gosh, are questions hanging over and, but it's, this is a matter for your tower. she is in u. k. to investigate and it's a matter for the british citizens to ask message appropriate for people who are from another country, frankly, to, to finance your politics. well, the british citizens, if you are, you know, you go me dumb for racism for that venezuelan president, maduro. and he has a problem with the bank of england, it apparently stealing venezuelan golden certainly once the money that has been exploded abroad. you know, that while the european union responded quickly to the release of these papers, or as johnson said, at all these donations are vetted in the normal way in accordance with rules, the was set up under labor government. so we've at them the whole time she selected

say h m r c will probe the information that your question is, who is vetting the offshore? we're out. and the answer is hardly anyone. so what we know about the offshore world is that it is growing exponentially in bows, trillions of dollars shifting and his shadow economy that you and i are north park you to that most of your viewers hang on archie too. and it involves the richest, the most powerful, and some of the most corrupt on the planet. it involves fraudsters, pedophile murderers. it involves some of the most julius people on times and we know this because we've seen them in our documents facing people that have been involved in the biggest ponzi schemes in history. we have seen people that are involved in v a t scans. and this is the problem to when boris johnson says that we are very whoever it is damaging to them. that may be the case, but who is a very the trillions of dollars that are in the shadow economy. a trillions of

dollars that are shifting spirited from place. displace wrangler from london to divide, fronted by to belize. this is the issue that is, or us johnson needs to address. well, what have you thought about these rebuttals from, or the, or the russians as, as they are always the russians that the, some of whom are wonderful questioning in, in russia. what did you make of their rebuttal saying? all of this is above board and you know that they're there, they're british citizens just like everyone else, giving money to a party. they support. we know from past investigations, we know from the current investigation that some of the russians in the documents, not all of the russians, because there are very many been, but some of them are questionable characters. there is no danger pages they wanted for prosecute they what be this is this, some of them are accused,

some of them are convicted, some of them are fugitives. i don't want it. i'm not trying to dance around. there is no danger. danger that some of the russians in the documents are people that ought not be at welcomed to donation to political projects. i mean, i think when you do you think we get extrapolate and say, the given that some of these people are enemies of putin or as johnson's and he, russia, policies may have been the result of these donations to the conservative party. that's why the conservative body has been keen to support the russia gate, conspiracies in the united states and all manner of conspiracy theories about russia, lexus, so we can, we can talk, there's bad russian money, money leaving russia. there's reasons for some of the reasons i go with them. people are moving their money because they're afraid of vladimir putin or their hide of other things. and they're afraid of organized crime in russia a little bit why they do they did it, did boards job, why?

but i think it's fairly obvious for their genetic devoris, johnson, they're donating ours johnson so to cement their position in favourably, in the eyes of the u. k government because they are on the run from russia many times. and just very briefly on zalinski, the nato back ukrainian. i mean, surely understandable that as a comedian, an actor before he became leader of you great. that he'd have a film company based in an offshore area. and that's what a lot of film people do, isn't it? yeah, i mean, that's kind of a reasonable assumption. i've done data, but the question is, is the film company begins? so this is that the offshore warranty cannot believe your own eyes because it's a film company doesn't mean it makes films because it's a baked bean company doesn't make it mean mean it makes beings a problem with the old world use. it's completely secret. are you to not know what it's up to mole comedy, but you don't see how that lee could be used, say,

by letting me a putin and a russians who are against his country to say you sees, groped, or you know, an action medley for the russian knows we're directing on election battling for anyone. we're publishing in the public interest as well. busy you know, so i guess you, i'll stop you there more in the pandora papers from the managing editor of the i c i, j after this break. ah, what happened? i make notes that you know borderline to tease and you parish as a merge, we don't have with the we don't on the back seat. whole world needs to be ready. people are judgment. come

with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with can continue the internet, censorship and freedom of speech co exist. this all important question is being tested. how should miss information be define? who should be allowed to make this determination? today it's about vaccines. will it stop there? ah,

welcome back. i'm still here talking about one of the reputed biggest ever off shore data leaks, the pandora papers with icy i. j managing editor, fergus. she'll sheree black. why fall? the alleged rule criminal tony. bla has been on this show. in fact, we went to the offices that i think, our ownership of which is involved in the band or a papers, tell me what you found about the bless. so they bought a property in london, true and all shore company and true purchasing, true the offshore company, and they were able to reduce the tax they had to pay on the property. so the question there is when tony tony blair is an advocate for global equality and the question is, why did tony blair and his wife do this? why did they do it when they knew that it was gone to reduce their tax? but they argue that they did so because they wanted to bring the property back into the u. k. tax sphere. you know, once again, it's 8 the,

is she in secrecy? or it happens to be secret, as you know, her, the blair's spokesman said we were aware the land tax is not able to respect to the purchase of shares, and that the seller requested to structure the transaction. and this way, i think, to re blair's people said they didn't want ownership of a opaque british virgin island company. i mean, you know, for your viewers, you, for your viewers, here's the thing. you go to work, you pay your tax, you buy a house, you're paying your tax for the global, a lease. that is not the case. it's that there's a whole parallel economy, a whole shadow economy that privileges, the wealthiest, that privilege is the politically connected and their privileges, the powerful and some of those powerful, are corrupt and will, and a lot of them, according to your papers, allegedly, i've been the lebanon i mean, there been flights this week, or is really war planes, israel on by britain of the united states lebanon being used as

a key area for blades to bomb syria. your rebel revelations about lebanon. how have they gone down with the people of liberal entry with her 80 percent? one estimate of people in poverty at the moment? premise to mccarty, lebanon is next task trophy. you know, it is a absolute catastrophe. there are people there who can't feed themselves. people who can't turn on the lights, people who don't have why fi to connect, don't have tv anymore. people here are literally cooking on coals because the economy has collapsed. and at the same time, we are witnessing is hundreds of millions of dollars shifting out of lebanon, true seekers. true the secret offshore world, and amongst those in lebanon, are political key, political figures, and also the central bank governor. so 11 on is a case study, hawaii,

the all show world is a travesty for equity, a travesty for poverty, a travesty for anti corruption excess. you don't think that we are the humans which were up to her and coercive measures because of the horrific as he appeared to be hanging sanctions regime of major countries of the united states against countries whose foreign policy, they don't like. these sorts of tax havens offer a vital support line for humanitarian food, energy, and so on to countries not liked by nato countries. this is an argument that's put forward many times and it does have some, some validity. it, it's, it's, it's essentially the holocaust argument which towards that are after world war 2, jewish people at need and, and others for who are victims of the horror of the, of the world war 2 had moved their money to safe havens. but what we're seeing here

is not that what we are seeing is money, flea corrupt regimes, and the people that are fully averaged shifting money are often the ones alleged to be corrupt. so there are instances where people have to shift their money to avoid a repression. there are instances where people have to shift their money because the government in, at, at, in that particular country is awful. but i washington sanctions, but the shorter no i, i understand i understand the bed, sanctions, i honest and that sanctions can cause additional over t and, and that their arguments that some times for 1000000 dead in iraq. of course i go to as he ones we've question and we can do justice to these are leagues given they had pakistan, india, jordan, chile. i mean it's just that the list goes on. i want, i want that database. i think every journalist does, i've got to ask you just finely about the funding of isaiah j. obviously appear on

mindy or, or where you get your money from yourself, or is he in the latest? pandora pays. no, he's not. but i, i believe that one of our offenders was in the panama papers and we reveal which, what does he think about you? you, he is in your offshore leaks day to mays. what does he, what does he think about it? i mean, obviously he's associated very closely with powerful nato agencies. i. i am not kidding. i do not show our funders. i've never met her from years. we are from years have no involvement in the newsroom. i see j, this is a tiny organization that needs funding. so if anyone like to donate to us, please do that. and there's only about 40 of us out. we work across the world and we never, ever hear from our foreigners, not ones that have never met them. don't know them. don't even know the age reduce new or big. i don't think you'll be able to open a little of sure to exit a fergus hill. thank you. well,

ah, well, in one of the pandora papers revelations had spain talking about alleged corruption involving former spanish king. one call us the 1st, madrid is not ceased and tried to capture cattle and leader and former president co weezer more for seeking a democratic referendum on catalonia, in independence. in the past 72 hours regional walked free from a sardinian court. and joining me from sardinia now is his lawyer, gonzalez. boy, thank you so much. gonzales for coming on. we had former president wisdom on the program in march since then in july, the european court of justice said that other member states may not have to arrest him. under the european arrest warrant only spain all a bit confusing, but they detained him in sardinia. and now he's free. what happened this week? the encourage of spain who has no competence on this case in cesta, in he said rest, and she's extra mission just being

a he activated the european ali system and these are d, m a r s him. but on the next day he was free. i'm waiting for next or the show hearing. it was quite clear that there was nothing to do with traditional because according to the european law, she keeps his immunity. and also the things to discuss this case is to go ahead but this case seems to go nowhere. but technically he's not, he doesn't have immunity. and now that this happened with the side in the police, does that not mean that they a, c, j, j will have to reevaluate their, for their initial finding that, that doesn't necessarily mean they can be arrested anywhere. he walks around in your, well, the new she judgment of the, of the european court. a 3rd of july was

based on a wrong information given based. i mean, the spain misled the court saying that this disorder was not active, which was untrue. so, and that now the, the coordinator will have to reevaluate, as you say, and we will have a resolution within the next $1530.00 days because it's quite clear that they gave him the precautionary measures. they lifted because there was no risk and the risk was existing. pedo sanchez, spanish prime minister says, why doesn't he just come back faced the music in madrid. he's part 9 in prison, catalan's in june. why can't, for president bridge, the more just go back because you don't trust him? well, he doesn't trust him. you know, in the spanish judicial system, every time that person and put him on was summoned by a european court. he appears in court as a matter of fact, he left at dinner last week and he came back on sunday to face this trial on monday . he has no problem with the marketing justice system. the portal is with just not

acting as a democratic state. but as i said, betters and just pardoned imprisoned catalan's there. why do you not think he will be pardoned in spain if he goes to madrid as a matter of fact, to keep on the other, the other capital ambrey sinners because of the 5 that president put the money sustained in europe. other ways without the activity of the child that would have never been a part of the newspaper. and especially because it essentially has many good so many different positions to work together and conflict that who knows, which will be the next position. i mean, obviously this has repercussions here in britain because of scotland, morris johnson. speaking of the conference today, he's on the record back in 2017 saying he was worried about violence. but the referendum that your client reasonable goals for is not constitutional. wanting not

to be constitutional. i'm the one thing is to be a criminal offense. there are 2 different things and to be unconstitutional in spain is very easy because it's an all court with judge just that the are above everything in the idea that is, spain must remain as a one nation which is not spain, the set canter with many nations and they are not going to maxim the rights of the minorities, the national minorities. and this is why they have never made a referendum that like the one they made in the scotland or the one. but it will, it take place in scotland most brawling to and 2023. i mean, if the spain accept something late is that will be a major step out of the frank waste time into the more craddick time. so just to put this in context, i don't know that island is slightly different, but because of what happened inside india this week,

it could mean that nicholas sturgeon, after calling for a referendum on scottish independence, could travel around europe, but not to england. that's the kind of parallel. when it gets the kind of fall, i mean the spanish delicious system on the spanish government. i not respecting the decisions of the european union. it is as simple as that mister, put them on is free. on in $26.00 out of the $27.00 european countries, if you want to make a united european system and our democratic system than the law should be equal in all entries. and the spanish not respect in a, the institution or the need, the jurisprudence nor the law of the european union, or does the level of dirty tricks against your client and you, yourself, you're being, you're being prosecuted for money laundering. there are reports that you met with the russian mafia boss according to the us treasury vasily crystal for over in february 2020 a lot of stuff in the press, in

a donation media coming out about you personally. well, the last, the last few years they have been doing what's called a smear campaign. also they sold my office twice during the night when the camera is in function. also, i'm pretty sure that we have been on the political sky for the last 34 years, which is something that we will prove it very shortly. mentioned one case, but i have been, i have been receiving accusation of all sorts of wrong doing an illegal activity last 3 years. and there is no a single week in the last 3 years where the media's are not certain media seems strange. i'm not talking about me, not even publishing pictures in a restaurant or whatever. i have no private life. i have no security, nothing. why? because i am one of the closest person to put the money in the bank his lawyer. and they think that if they are back me,

they have that mr. put them on. we know now the apparent be 30 anonymous officials say the cia one did the kidnap julian assange from london. they would have gun battles in the streets of london. the plan is secret service. what do you think? could they kidnap your gland wisdom or, and take him to face trial in spain? somebody as a day in agency, we don't know the secret service or the guy just to be lord the national police. they have been building tracking devices under the car and put them on. they have been using the, the applications by all of us. they have been following president bush demona, myself on the other colleagues all around europe. i'm in the spring is spending a hell of a lot of money, public money, most of them european money in this accounting of president, put them on the can't be happy by the court decision. so i didn't hear this week.

what think is next? could they, could they, i mean, are you fearful of threats to your life or your client? go push double. we are discussing what's going to be the next movement, and that will be there to or again say all of us again, some of us screaming and understand what hardly democratic rules and president put them on has nothing has done nothing that's not within a democratic parameters she has called for a referendum that referendum could being constitutional. most countries will say that it is in constitutional to call a referendum to recognize the rights of the national minorities. but according to article 2 and 3 of the european treaty, the european union should protect the rights of the national minorities and he is exercising that right. and the reaction of the spanish dig state is going to be fears. a spanish government obviously says it's not constitutional gonzalez, boy,

thank you. thank you very much. that's it for the show will be back on saturday when jovan johnson wrangler merkel. lads in israel to me. prime minister natalia bennett is germany continues exporting weapons used against palestinians until then given joshua social media. and let us know if you have secret information off shore tax savings that should be revealed in the public interest with the way of life of reindeer herders leading a traditionally nomadic lifestyle in the tundra is similar to a parallel reality. while the men join women carry the weight of the household work on their shoulders rather than bear with. however,

in the vast expanse of russia, there is a spot where a housewife could secure regular employment. it's in the fall semester with ah, it's open also so much i think, but i feel that it's cool. we did. who bought? i bought a dial tomorrow, a couple of reviews on your quote, but i know from politicians to athletes and movies. does the musicals, does it seems every big name in the world has been here? let's see. okay, ms. you can work out this goes to school. ah. and when you get the call, when you finish with me, glover,

you spoke with them. said basil makes dreams come true the every one who falls in love with people like a breaking news on our t as gas prices. serge, 2 new highs in europe. some member states are seeing read over the use determination to go green silencing the san se marine faces potential trial for daring to criticize president biden's afghan pol logged the spike. another officer being healed a hero 2 years ago for tongue lashing from also from 0 to 0, facebook to cues by a whistleblower of weakening democracy a decade after it was readily praise for helping to bring up all the art of string

revolutions.