and for our here is in the u. k. the kaiser reporting with can continue the internet, censorship and freedom of speech co exist. this all important question is being tested. how should miss information be defined? who should be allowed to make this determination? today it's about vaccines. will it stop there? ah mm hm. with

my mansion or dancing, we're going underground, coming up with the show as british prime minister bars johnson addresses his party conference. how much of his party is bankrolled through corruption. we speak to the managing editor of the i, c i. j, behind the pandora papers, the reputed, largest ever league of offshore data to shed light on the shadowy world of capitalists deletes and corruption. and after the european union responds to the pandora papers by proclaiming probity, the lawyer of cattle and lead a call, please to more tells us why sardinia set him free this week and what it means for democracy from edinburgh to barcelona. as they fight london and madrid, all this more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st today, british prime minister bars johnson addresses his conservative body conference in manchester. but while he refuses to stop a key cut in welfare for the poorest families, new revelations, from the reputed,

biggest ever off shore day to leak alleged corruption. at the heart of his party, the so called pandora papers were leaked to the international consortium of investigative journalists. they shed light on the dark money world of elite capitalism, the ikea jays, managing energy, fergus, she'll joins me now from washington, dc. thank you so much. register for joining us just before we get into the tip of the iceberg of these a complex and voluminous revelations. just for the sake of the poorest people watching this, the signal against all of them in what it tells us about the elite. and the very idea of democracy around the world war we know about the ocean world is it drains trillions of dollars from the economies of countries around the world. and the consequences of these are poorer how schools, poorer schools per universities. and it's a recognized problem. it's a problem that governments around the world have said that they intend to tackle.

and what we're showing now is that any efforts to tackle us have failed. now there's been some publicity about individuals, obviously listed, and there are so many, i mean, you can tell me how much data there is. obviously there's been immediate reaction from some saying where the names of the richest people in the world is it because they just use tax avoidance. in plain sight, we know of the big oligarch, silicon valley, billionaires who will use tax avoidance. as a matter of course, when we're more in the fortunate position, he's saying that some of those names are in the pandora papers. we have the names of more than a 100 billionaires from and scores of countries. and we also have the names of more than $330.00 our tissues on the high level public officials from scores of countries. so the parent or papers have shown for a profound way in an unprecedented way, the entanglement of power and uber wealth with the offshore world. well,

let's get to the politicians in a 2nd, but i mean, are you going to make this database really available to be searched like wiki leaks or because i can't seem to be able to get a link at the moment. so the i, j has as a database called the offshore leaks database in which is the public. anybody can access information about our past projects. some information from this, the pandora, this will be produced in the offshore next database. we don't produce at all, it was precedent because as to vonsha, it's 12000000 documents. but also because we only publish in the public interest. and so the names that will appear in the offshore next database has those that are public interest. right. so it's redacted in some way, because obviously some of the believe there's that people might know of jeff as well. so i don't know, just thinking over random they, they haven't been revealed in the band or a baby at all. i can tell you that jeff s city is not in there. we look tart. he

doesn't. he doesn't feature. but no, the reason me we, we don't republish everything is because there are legitimate reasons for using the offshore world. what we try to focus on is secrecy. and my secrecy is a problem and what we know from past projects and from this one is secrecy is a massive problem when it comes to politicians. secrecy is a massive pop up problem when it comes to oligarchs. okay, but how is it different men from the paradise papers in the panama papers? it's very good question and i think the significant differences are the 2. the 1st one is the number of politicians. so it's fast, it's $300.00 more than $3.30 and as more than and $35.00 world leaders and they're only the ones we have found. it's really difficult to find them so that because the, the, the system is so opaque and the documents themselves are so are covert that it's

hard. so that's the 1st one said system. it shows the political and global political in town entanglement neosha world, which is huge. and the 2nd one, which is really significant, is it shows the involvement of the us in the offshore world as never before. yeah, biden's, home, state of delaware, south dakota, who would, who would have thought, let's get on to morris johnson says the speaking at this conference in majesty today, i should say i raised some of the names that you reveal here on a, on a, b, b, c, question time program, how much a russian money is sloshing around the conservative party, say in the documents, and that that the majority of them, the largest number of people in the documents are russian. cameras have particular reason why they're russian. one of the reasons is that trying to get the money out of the country because they're concerned about vladimir putin and his regime took. but what it shows at the same time is a lot of this money is ending up in london. and some of it is ending up in from

medieval, a man's inventory party coffers. and so the question lat raises is, where does the money that goes to detroit artic come from? and this is the question that the baby see and yourself are raising. now, you say afraid of vladimir putin, i presume you mean like people like her. what can you can, who is wanted in russia and these people are wanted on charges of corruption back in russia, yet they come over here apparently, and well. well, they admit no wrong doing then bankroll, i mean the names are dominick rab richie soon act boris johnson. these people have benefited from money that can be extrapolated back to well, as it was, the russian government might say stolen. who knows? so well, with the problem in secrecy, it's

a serious problem for politics rather weren't. so in the same way that russian money ends up in the u. k. venezuelan money ends up in spain and the money from bass while it has clearly been misappropriated because it's in hundreds of millions and it ends up in spain and the crash and, and this in, in, in the u. k. some of the biggest party dornan's for the tory parties and for the tory party are russians. and some of those have gosh, questions hanging over and, but it's, this is a matter for your tower. she is in you k, to investigate and it's a matter for the british citizens to ask, is it appropriate for people who are from another country, frankly, to, to finance your politics? well, the british citizens, if you are, you know, you go me dumb for racism for that venezuelan president, maduro. i mean, he has a problem with the bank of england. it apparently stealing venezuelan golden

certainly wants the money that has been explored abroad. you know, that while the european union responded quickly to the release of these papers, whereas johnson said, all these donations are vetted in the normal way in accordance with rules that were set up under labor government. so we've at them the whole time. she said, i did say h m r c will probe the information. the bigger question is, who is batting the offshore? we're out. and the answer is hardly anyone saw that we know about the offshore else is that it is growing exponentially in both trillions of dollars shifting and his shadow economy. that you and i are now partially to that most of your viewers hang on archie too. and it involves the richest, the most powerful, and some of the most corrupt on the planet. in emboss fraudsters, pedophile, murderers. it involves some of the most julius people on times and we know this because we've seen them in our documents facing people that have been involved in the biggest ponzi schemes in history. we have seen people that are involved in v a

t scans. and this is the problem to when boris johnson says that we are very whoever it is damaging to them. that may be the case, but who is a very the trillions of dollars that are in the shadow economy. trillions of dollars that are shifting spirited from place this place and, and we're from london to buy from to buy to belize. this is the issue that is, or as johnson needs to address. well, what have you thought about these rebuttals from the, the, the russians as, as they are always eager russians that the, some of the room, wonderful questioning in, in russia. what did you make of their rebuttal saying, all of this is above board. and you know, the terror, they're there, british citizens, just like everyone else giving money to a party. they support, we know from past investigations,

we know from the current investigation that some of the russians in the documents, not all of the russians, because there are very many been, but some of them are questionable characters. there is no danger pages they wanted for prosecute. they what be this, is this, some of them are accused, some of them are convicted, some of them are fugitives. i don't want it. i'm not trying to dance around as there is no danger. danger that some of the russians in the documents are people that ought not be at welcomed to donation to political projects. i mean, i think when you get it, do you think we can extrapolate and say the, given that some of these people are enemies of putin or as johnson's and he, russia, policies may have been the result of these donations to the conservative party. that's why the conservative body has been keen to support the russia gate, conspiracies in the united states and all manner of conspiracy theories about russia, lexus, so we can, we can talk clara's bad russian,

that my money leaving russia. there's reasons for some of the reasons i go with them. people are moving their money because they're afraid of vladimir putin or their height of other things. and they're afraid of organized crime in russia a little bit why they do they did it, did boards job, why? but i think, i think it's fairly obvious for their genetic devoris, johnson, they're donating ours johnson so to cement their position in favorably, in the eyes of the u. k. government. because they are on the wrong from russia many times. and just very briefly, on zalinski, the nato back to ukrainian, i mean, surely understandable, that is a comedian actor before he became leader of you. great. that he'd have a film company based in an offshore area. and that's what a lot of film people do, isn't it? yeah, i'm in fact quite a reasonable assumption. i've done data, but the question is, is the film company being used for? so this is that the offshore who and you cannot believe your own eyes because it's

film company doesn't mean it makes films because it's a baked bean company. doesn't make it means mean it makes beings a problem with the or world use. it's completely secret or if you do not know what it's up to more comedy, but you don't see how that lee could be used, say by either me or bruton and russians who are against his country and to say you sees groped, or you know, an action meddling for the russian knows we're directing on election meddling for anyone. we're at publishing in the public interest as well. busy you know, so i guess you, i'll stop you there. more in the pandora papers from the managing editor of the i, c i, j, after this break with join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. and i'll be speaking together for the world politics sport. business. i'm

sure business. i'll see you then. mm. ah, welcome back. i'm still here talking about one of the reputed biggest ever off shore data leaks, the pandora papers with icy i. j managing editor, fergus hill. sheree blair. why for over alleged all criminal tony blair has been on this show. in fact, we went to the offices that i think are ownership of which is involved in the band or a papers. tell me what you found about the bless. so they bought a property in london, true in all shore company and true purchasing. true the offshore company and they were able to reduce the tax they had to pay on the property. so the question there is, when time you know, tony blair is an advocate for global equality. and the question is, why did tony blair and his wife do this? why did they do it? when they knew that it was going to reduce their taxes?

they argue that they did so because they wanted to bring the property back into the u. k. tax sphere. or, you know, once again, it's 8 the, is she in secrecy or it happens to be secret? as you know, her, the blair's spokesman said we were aware the land tax is not able to respect to the purchase of shares. and that the seller requested to structure the transaction. at this way, i think to re blair's people said they didn't want ownership of a opaque british virgin island company. i mean, the, you know, for your viewers, you, for your viewers, here's the thing. you good work. you pay your tax, you buy a house, you're paying your tax for the global, a lease. that is not the case. it's that there's a whole parallel economy, a whole shadow economy that privileges, the wealthiest, that privilege is the politically connected and their privileges. the powerful and some of those powerful are corrupt and well, and a lot of them,

according to your papers, allegedly have been the lebanon. i mean, there been flight this week where israeli war plains, israel, arm by britain of the united states, sir lebanon, being used as a key area for blades to bomb syria. your rebel revelations about lebanon. how have they gone down with the people of liberal entry with or 80 percent? one estimate of people in poverty at the moment. premise to mccarty, lebanon, as a task trophy, you know, it is a absolute catastrophe. there are people there who can't feed themselves. people who can't turn on the lights, people who don't have why fi to connect to the world don't have tv anymore. people here are literally cooking on, on coals because the economy has collapsed. and at the same time, we are witnessing is hundreds of millions of dollars shifting ad, lebanon, true seekers. true the secret offshore world. and amongst those in evident our

political key, political figures and also the central bank. so 11 on is a case study. hawaii all showed is a travesty for equity, a travesty for poverty, a travesty for anti corruption exercise. you don't think that we are the un, which were up to her and coercive measures because of the arithmetic, as he appeared to be. hang it, sanctions regime of major countries along the united states, against countries whose foreign policies they don't like. these sorts of tax havens offer a vital support line for humanitarian food, energy, and so on to countries not liked by nato countries. this is an argument that's put forward many times and it does have some, some validity. it, it's, it's, it's essentially the holocaust argument, which ones that are natural and watching jewish people at need and,

and others who are victims of the horror of the world war 2 had to move their money to say what we're seeing here is not the ash what we're seeing is money, flea corrupt regimes and the people that are fully averaged shifting money are often. busy the ones alleged to be corrupt. so there are instances where people have to ship their money to avoid or oppression. there are instances where people have to shift their money because the government at, in that particular country is awful. but i washington sanctions put the question i know i, i understand understand i the bed sanctions, i understand that sanctions can cause additional poverty and that their arguments that sometimes they owe for 1000000 dead in iraq. of course i go to as he ones we've question and we can do justice to these are leagues given they had

pakistan, india, jordan, chile. i mean it's just than the list goes on. i want, i want that database. i think every journalist does, i've got to ask you just finely about the funding of isaiah j. obviously appear on monday or away you get your money from yourself, or is he in the latest? pandora pays. no, it's not. but i, i believe that whenever funders i was in the panama paper, suddenly revealed what does he think about you? he is in your offshore leaks database. what does he, what does he think about it? i mean, obviously he's associated very closely with powerful nato agencies. i don't know. i'm not kidding you. i do not show our funders. i've never met her from years. we are from there's have no involvement in the newsroom. i. c j. this is a tiny organization that needs funding. so if anyone like to donate to us, please do ad. there's only about 40 of us out. we work across the world and we

never ever hear from our foreigners not ones that have never met them. don't know them, don't even know that age. so we just do our big, i don't think you'll be able to open a little of sure to exit kind of a focus. she'll thank you. well, ah, well in one of the pandora papers revelations had spain talking about the alleged corruption involving former spanish king one call us the 1st madrid is not ceased and tried to capture cattle and leader and former president co reasonable for seeking a democratic referendum on catalonia independence in the past 72 hours regional walk free from a sardinian court. and joining me from sardinia now is his lawyer. gonzalo boy, thank you so much. gonzalez for coming on, we had a former president wisdom on the program in march since then in july, the european court of justice said that other member states may not have to arrest him under the european arrest warrant only spain all a bit confusing,

but they detained him in sardinia, and now he's free. what happened this week? he's in court judge of spain, who has no competence on this case insisted in he said rest and she is extra mission just being a he activated the european police system. and these are d. m a on the next day he was free. i'm waiting for for next or the sure hearing. it was quite clear that there was nothing to do with traditional because according to european, your hero, she keeps his immunity. and also the things to discuss this case is to go ahead, but this case seems to go nowhere. but technically he's not, he doesn't have immunity. and now that this happened with the side in the police, does that not mean that they a, c, j, j will have to reevaluate their, for their initial finding that,

that doesn't necessarily mean they can be arrested anywhere. he walks around and you're, well, the new sure judgment of the, of the european court a 3rd of july was based on the wrong information given by. i mean, the bank misled the court saying that this, this order was not active, which wasn't true. so, and that now the, the coordinator will have to reevaluate, as you say, and we will have a resolution within the next $1530.00 days because it's quite clear that they gave him the precautionary measures. they lifted because there was no risk and the risk was existing. pedo sanchez, spanish prime minister says, why doesn't he just come back faced the music in madrid. he's pardon 9, imprison catalan's in june. why can't, for president bridge, the more just go back because you don't trust him. well, he doesn't know the spanish judicial system every time that person and put him on

was summoned by a european court. he appears in court. as a matter of fact, he left said in the last week and he came back on sunday to face this trial on monday. he has no problem with the marketing justice system. the portal is with the sponge justice system. we're just not acting as a democratic state, but as i said, betters and just pardoned imprisoned catalan's there. why do you not think he will be pardoned in spain if he goes to madrid? as a matter of fact, to keep ogden the other, the other capital ambitions because of the 5 that president put the money sustained in europe. other ways without the activity of the child that would have never been a part of the new spain. and especially because it essentially has many good so many different positions to work together and conflict, or who knows, which will be the next position. i mean, obviously this has repercussions here in britain because of scotland,

morris johnson. speaking of the conference, today's on the record back in 2017 saying he was worried about violence. but the referendum that your client reasonable goals for is not constitutional. one thing not to be constitutional. i'm the one thing is to be a criminal offense. there are 2 different things and to we, i'm constantly shown in the spain is very easy because it's an old court with judge just that the r i bought everything back in the idea that spain must remain as a one nation which is not spain. the said canter with many nations, and they unluckily from mason, the rights of the minorities, the national minorities. and this is why they have never made a referendum that like the one they made in the scotland or the one. but it will take place in scotland most brawling to and 10 to 23. i mean, if the spain accept something late is that will be

a major step out of the frank worst time in to do more traffic time. so just to put this in context, i don't know that island is slightly different, but because of what happened inside india this week, it could mean that nicholas sturgeon, after calling for a referendum on scottish independence, could travel around europe, but not to england. that's the kind of parallel one gets the kind of battle, i mean, the spanish judicial system on the spanish government. i'm not respecting do the sessions of the european union. it is as simple as that mr. benjamin is free on in $26.00 out of the $27.00 european countries. if you want to make a united european system and our democratic system, dandy law should be equal in all entries and the space not respecting the dns you shouldn't or the need. the jurisprudence nor the law of the european union, or does the level of dirty tricks against your client and you yourself, you're being,

you're being prosecuted for money laundering. there are reports that you met with the russian mafia boss according to the us treasury vasily. a crystal for over february 2020, a lot of stuff in the press. nato nation media coming out about you personally. well, the last, the last 3 years, they have been doing what's called a smear campaign. also, they sold my office twice during the night when the camera is in function also, i'm pretty sure that we have been on the political sky for the last 34 years, which is something that would prove it very shortly. you mentioned one case, but i have been i have been receiving accusation of all sorts of wrong doing. i'm illegal activities last 3 years and there is no a single week in the last 3 years where the media's are not certain media seems strange. i'm not talking about me, not even polish in pictures, in a restaurant or whatever. i have no private life. i have no security, nothing. why?

because i'm one of the closest person to put the money in the bank his lawyer. and they think that if they attack me, they have that mr. put them on we no, no. the apparent be 30 anonymous officials say the cia one did the kidnap julian assange from london. they would have gun battles in the streets of london. the plan is secret service. what do you think? could they kidnap or your gland wisdom or, and take him to face trial in spain? somebody as a day in agency, we don't know the secret service or the god guess he below the national police. they have been booting tracking devices under the president put them on they have been using the bathroom supplication by all of us. they have been following president bush demona, myself and the other colleagues

a all around europe. i'm in the spring, the spending a hill of a lot of money, public money, most of them european money in this accounting of president, put them on the come be happy by the court decision and said in your this week, what think is next could they could they, i mean, are you fearful of threats to your life or your client, gro, christabel, we are discussing what's going to be the next movement, and that we'd be dirty more again, say all of us again, some of us spin hassan, understand what hardly democratic rules. and president put them on has nothing has done nothing that is not within a democratic parameters. she has called for a referendum. that referendum could be in constitutional. most countries will say that it is constitutional to call a referendum to recognize the rights of the national minorities. but according to article 2 and 3 of the european treaty,

the european union should protect the rights of the national minorities and he is exercising that right. and the reaction of the spanish dig state is going to be fears. the spanish government obviously says it's not constitutional gonzalez, boy, thank you. thank you very much. that's over the show will be back on saturday when german johnson wrangler merkel lands in israel to me. prime minister natalia bennett is germany continues exporting weapons used against palestinians until then human judge, wireless social media. and let us know if you have secret information off shore tax havens that should be revealed in the public interest charges, financial survival guide. when customers go by your use of right now, well, reduce a lower that's undergrad and what's good for food market is not good for the global

economy with ah, elizabeth ethan says russia was still pumping gas to europe for ukraine. i think the use decision to teach long term contracts for the costly mistake. while within the year itself, for the lines, the managers, some member of faith, are increasingly seen where they would be easier determination for go green us parents are speaking out against things like critical race theory and mask wary could now be investigated by that. as leon, that's also the national school boards association claim. the threat is received on time to mount to domestic tara with.