ah, and i make no sense, no borders line to nationalities and you various as a merge, we don't have with the we don't on the back seat. the whole world leads to take action to be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better. we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with ah,

i ah, i'm ashan returns here. we're going underground. coming up in the show, widens delaware and nomad land, south dakota, forget the came and o british virgin islands. we ask and add to the oscar meyer food company, fortune, why he's calling the united states. the tax even after this week's pandora's box of greed and g dealings. and should the billing is escaping to the british virgin islands and space really been the ones in control of our future amongst the stars in world space week sponsored by lockheed martin. and we ask one of the world's greatest science. communicated to professor jim kelley. melissa, more coming up in today's going underground. but 1st,

this week ne donation meteors been all over the revelations from the so called pandora papers that revealed large scale dodgy dealings, and alleged corruption by the global elite. but aside from the islands, did it become at synonymous with tax havens? there was largest economy, the united states is arguably been put center stages, the tax haven for the rich and powerful. joining me now from battle bra in vermont is chuck collins, director of the program of inequality and the common good at the institute for policy studies. thank struck for coming on. yeah, i mean that the usa is suddenly central. not all these caribbean countries are that we're used to knowing about am no mad land was about the poor vagabonds of the united states. won an oscar, south dakota. what, what are these states got to do with it and why they globally infamous for a hiding money? yes, well i think that that the time when the united states lectures, other countries about corruption, we have, we have nothing to stand on now because,

and here's what's interesting, south dakota, it's secret sauce is that it wealthy. people can create a trust in south dakota, that is anonymous that is on taxed and will exist forever. so if you're trying to build dynastic wealth, south dakota is your place. they've changed their laws to attract what we call dynasty trusts. and none of that money is seen by, i mean, south dakota isn't the richest state in the union. no, not at all. i mean, there's some, there's a very small, a wealth management sector that's probably paid quite well. but to be honest, very little of that money touches down in south dakota and benefits people who live in south dakota. now, you know you're talking about then as well. slow boy jack, the philosopher was on this show. he was quoting oscar wilde and saying that you know, oscar wilde saying charity is not the answer. individual philanthropy is not the,

i'd say you gave up money that you inherited from the great oscar meyer, fortune people in the states watching this will know what's going on. why didn't you put that money in, in a magazine about income inequality or create a i mean, obviously you are part of this institute now, why give it away? well, you know, i was a young fellow 40 years ago, but, but i just didn't want to benefit from a system of dynastic inheritance where some families, wealth grew and others were struggling. i didn't give it to several foundations that make good decisions about where to invest it and where to give it to him, you know, make the united states a more equal society. i have no regrets looking back on that. and in fact, it gave me some insights into this hidden well system, because wealthy families are surrounded by what i call the wealth defense industry . lawyers, accountants, wealth managers, who really want you to, to hoard your wealth forever. so yeah,

i want to get on to the wealth managers and their, their influence on us politics in the mood. but i know that you are concerned about what the usa, you call the usa pre existing condition of extreme wealth and equality. but in recent years, we've heard bernie sanders use the word socialism on prime time. us tv. we've heard joe biden all be, it's a, is a capitalist talking about the stimulus. and there he is talking about inequality again and again. and again, do you detect a huge see change in the civil discourse of the united states in equality is not center stage? absolutely, i mean, i know to be nice to me here, but you know, well no i, as somebody who, you know, i mean i co added a website called inequality dot org. i've been following these issues for decades. this is a really powerful moment because people are waking up to the ways in which these grotesque concentrations of wealth and power are really wrecking our society and wrecking our lives and wrecking our economy. so, as you know, for the 1st time in

a long time, a majority of people, 6070 percent of people want to tax the very wealthy and ensure that the wealthy pay their fair share. so these are positive trends. and yet when this, i mean, obviously we're hearing rhetoric from biden and the so called squad and so on. when there was a valid socialist like bernie sanders on the ballot. as we know from wiki leaks, there was a deliberate sabotaged campaign from the clinton side of the dnc against him. so when it comes to real power and fundamental power, and i'm sure you've been watching all the negotiations, the book barrel politics is they've been gold. is it? is it all words about the quality rather than actual attacks on wealth foundations, on investment banks, on investment income? well, the kinds of things that really need to be tackled well. well, clearly the, i mean, the u. s. political system has been captured by these wealthy interests by the

corporate interests. and so they, within what happens in washington, d. c is highly constrained by that. the good news is the popular base and opinion of people is changing. and ultimately that will shift the politics, the public is way more where bernie sanders is than they are. where most centrist democrats are, they want to reduce inequality. they want the rich to pay their share, they want to abolish student debt. you know, they want to live in a more equal and healthy society. and yes, well, we obviously have the coven pandemic killing hundreds of thousands of, of americans. and you think the u. s. oligarchs being actually incentivized by covey. they made a lot of money from it. haven't they, you've been talking about how, how much money they have made, just as oligarchs made money at the opioid crisis, of course, which killed so many. yeah, no, i mean, i think one of the powerful juxtapositions right now is u. s. billionaires have

seen their wealth, go up almost 2 trillion dollars during the pandemic. this is an embarrassment, and this is, and you know, just to post with the loss of life and the loss of livelihoods for so many people. that's where some of the populace anger about inequality is coming from. and there's a tiny segment, i think, of the oligarchs who, who understand this is a risk or that actually genuinely like more, more spur bears believe that they should speak out for a more fair society. so i think, you know, you know, i think we're, we're, we're seeing a disruption to the normal politics. that doesn't mean that the rich aren't going to be able to block meaningful change right now. but i do think the pressure is building for real change. you don't think, i mean, here in britain, the british prime minister, very, a very, you know, full of expressions about the importance of the free market and for small and medium sized businesses to do the work in increasing wage levels to avoid their

work is falling into poverty, is it different there? i know that in china it's famously different because they are cracking down on inequality that. similarly in biden's, america, you know, to some actual difference. what do you think that people wondering around the have tens people wondering around the tory body conference here in britain. they basically say things are things, you know, they don't going to be pitch folks anytime soon. right. well, it's clear the united states has a very high tolerance for inequality, and that's been true for decades. i think what's changed is more people understand that the rules have been rigged to benefit the wealthy. you know, i think of most people, if you stop people know, nighted states they'd be like, i don't resent that wealthy person over there, especially if they invented something useful. but if they're using their wealth and power to get more wealth and power, there use their wealth and power to cut their own taxes. could concentrate monopoly power over segments of the industry. squeeze out businesses, push people aside,

then they get mad. and that's clearly the case. and so i think it about it from say, well give i will street years ago, which was obviously that reaction to the massive top funds and bailouts of the wall street banking system. what's different, i would say what, what's, what's different is that sort of like the cumulative understanding, you know, there's always going to be a segment people in the united states who are hard core, kind of libertarian. magical thinking, you know, about inequality. but i think that growing, you know, people who care about, you know, opportunity for their children, see that the rules are rig that phrase the rules are rigged. both the trump ers and the bernie sanders, people will all agree. the rules, the economy have been rig to benefit the very wealthy. and then the question is, what do you do about it? and people have different solutions, but that from visceral gut analysis is broadening. that's what i see changing. ok.

well, putting my oligarch hat on, i'd say to you, look at the pandora papers, no one the l. a u. s. a wealth advisory firm is on that. if you look at the map of the world until russia, there's nothing, nothing wrong going on in the united states at all. the other countries? well, you know, here's the problem. all the leaks came from officer services companies outside the united states, and that's not the place where u. s. oligarchy are going to go for their, you know, wealth defense services. we, we need a couple of good leaks from some of these trust companies. and if anyone's listening and they want to contact me, i can help you, you know, disclose your information confidentially. because that will actually help shift the u. s. dynamic. the fact that the u. s. oligarchy are not name doesn't mean they're not using the same secrecy jurisdiction, shell companies opaque trust. they're using all the same tools. they just haven't

been named in the story yet. you know, you've been investigating equality for years and, you know, say the big accounting firms for some of the biggest banks. how is it that they are so able to stuff whistle blowing within their organization? so, i mean, it's better than the u. s. army clearly. yeah. i mean, clearly there are big financial incentives to just keep your mouth quiet and stay. but you know, the fact is the system is cracking. there are people within that wealth defense industry who know what they're doing is harmful, that it's contributing to kind of the got rot of the political system and our economic system. and you know, there are younger people who are working in those companies who are right now, copying information on the thumb drives and not sure what to do with it yet. i believe that. so i think we're going to see this is just the beginning of revelations and i hope from someone from the united states who cares about this. i

hope they do expose some of the abuses here more and more of the abuses here in the us. now you've chatted spiraling inequality and you said it's cumulative since the 20 or a crisis. i mean the obvious, quote, those who make peace will revolution and possible will make violent revolution inevitable if there are not john f. kennedy, if there are not, is the stimulus isn't of the required amount to be able to help the poorest communities in the united states. how soon before we see violence in the united states given this is cumulative, and the poor are getting poor and poor. are we doing sub saharan africa levels in certain communities as regards poverty, inequality and life expectancy? i don't know the answer to that question except i think the pressure is building and if the political system fails to respond, then people will go outside the political system. you know, and unfortunately in the u. s, it could go different directions. it could go, you know, right wing fascism or it could go progressive,

bernie sanders populace. right? you know, our, our system and our society is very divided in volatile right now. and there's so much misinformation about what are the real harms and causes of those harms that people are confused. so you know, people like me, our job is to try to explain, you know, how this is happening and who is responsible? and people like the people who work in the wealth defense industry and the politicians who enable them are responsible. chuck collins, obviously going on the ground once that nature, as much as, as you do at the institute, maybe people can send it to both of us. if it's in the public interest, chuck collins, thank you. thanks for having me. after the break. ahead of the cop 26 conference in glasgow, enjoying the lockheed martin's wanted world space. we, we ask one of the world's greatest science communicators. professor jim kelley lee

of billionaires blasting off into space is just what the world needs all this. i'm all coming up with. what do i have going on the ground? ah ah ah ah ah welcome back a pot one. we investigated the billionaires escaping taxes by moving their money to

the british virgin islands and south dakota. but what about those escaping the planet itself? this week's world space week has been dominated by news toys about billionaires whose forays into the upper atmosphere as seen by many as the successor to a state funded space travel. but with the planet facing a capitalism catalyzed climate catastrophe. should we be worried about the potentially billionaire dominated future in space? joining me now is one of this planets. most popular science communicate is jim l. kelly. thanks so much jim. for coming on world space. we have we have the pandora papers. it's greater than all the 1000000000 is, are they gonna leave us to it back on us? well, maybe, hopefully, if they let me pay the taxes and they can go where they lock will next. tuesday, william shatner, captain cook, who does a show here on the ortiz 8, calling in away it launching into space. how important is it that popular culture learn science, communication of the kind that you practice in making people understand why science

is not something to be terrified about? i think, i mean that there are different aspects to it. you're right. the science is part of popular culture. one of the things i've always tried to do over the years is, is to embed science within that sort of public conversation that we would talk about. things like spice, travel law, all black hole or genetics in the same breath that we would talk about sports also, literature, politics, music is part of should be part of the conversation. it doesn't mean everyone has to be a scientist. doesn't. everyone has to be an expert, but there's another aspect to which is i think, increasingly important. and we've certainly seen it in over the course of the pandemic. which is that people need to understand the process of science. because in order to trust science to trust scientists, people need to understand how science works. you know this idea about repeatability . the importance of uncertainty, the gathering of evidence, consensus, be prepared to change your mind to say i was wrong about that because i didn't have enough data. now i know more, i've changed my mind, that scene as

a weakness in politics. that's a you turn in politics in science, it's the way we do it and i think is vital as well as just the fascinating, sexy stuff about science that we communicate. we should also communicate how we do science. yeah, i mean, scientifically, i can tell that your headphone is rubbing against that microphone, but no will pass away. hm. yeah, i mean, i'm not, i'm not blaming you. but since the great science communicate is richard fineman up to, you know, obviously it's got worse than you mentioned. go with misinformation. why is it getting worse? the more prevalent better science communication is getting? yeah, well i mean, to some extent we, we can blame social media in a public dialogue in all arenas has become so i blaming the printing press. surely . i know, i know it's amplified a problem that is very true, but also is because we are increasingly being used by more and more information.

most people don't have the attention span to, to understand something in that sort of, that they may have done in the past. and b, everyone feels they know something about everything. you know, we didn't, in the past before the internet, we didn't have access to all this information. now we have so much there is this tendency to feel that we know more than we do in 10 seats, it to value opinion over evidence. and so it's a struggle while, while at the same time that people are exposed to more thought, good science communication, learning more about science becoming more sensitive, illiterate. on the flip side, there are, you know, the growth of conspiracy theories, the growth of ideas that are anti scientific due to this information. so i don't blame social media and just say it's amplifying a problem. that is part of our society today is just the way it is and we need to find solutions to it. but in fan is away from those. we think the vaccination has

microchips are real gauge. this space week is sponsored by lockheed martin. i mean, the surely people have reason to worry about how science is built into the military industrial complex. i mean, it is literally, i mean britain is a new space force. trump famously inaugurated biden is continuing a space was, was in space space where it is about war science has always been intimately connected with the military and with security, you know, going all the way back to, you know, the manhattan project and, and before that, you know, in fact, so as of was ations, science inevitably unfortunately has progressed more rapidly at a time when nations needed typically, you know, when it comes to things like defense and security. but that's not normal. science is about funding. the science we like to say science is value free. of course it's

not and scientist certainly on value free, but it's what we do with that science. what we do with the technology, which is up for debate, for, for good or for evil. one can always argue that even if that space travel wasn't sponsored by defense, the defense industry, if it was just sponsored by millionaire millionaire philanthropists, because they want to know the rich branson's of the law must cuz they want to go to space. one could also argue, is that the best place to spend our money? why are we spending it more on tackling disease, all curing cancer? and that's an age old problem. but science is broader than that. some of it is, is, is probably unsavory in terms of how it's applied. other sciences purely because as humans, we are curious about the world and we want to understand the world. yeah, but i mean, i mean, on monday we're going to the nobel prize winner of a physics a century of drives. i'm one it obviously, that's about climate change research that's always doing something good. but on

balance zigler and be with the nazis, roger, vietnam, iraq, when britain was selling chemical weapons do, is that i was saying, i mean, science has been, is it worth it in terms of the numbers of dead versus the number say? well, absolutely, because without science, there will be many more people, date size has also cure disease. science has made our lives easier. science has led to enlightenment. we can always pick those examples where science has been useful for bad purposes. but orders of magnitude more science has made our world better. it's given us the technology to, to do everything has given us the medicine has given us things that make our lives so much easier. we say we want to go back to the dark ages because we can pick individual examples of where science has been used in the wrong way on the whole, enlightenment is better than ignorance. and science helps us get enlightenment dark

ages. there's a, there's a term, you know, british prime minister or johnson said the muslim world is literally centuries behind thanks of islam. he wrote an essay, then came the muslims talking about the medieval dark ages and how the christians kept the candle of a learning a light. how can re writing the history of science be used for colonialism and misinformation about the history of science? certainly there is ignorance, about science as ignorance, about how science develops. i mean, i would, i would hope the prime minister could have read my book. part find is where i, where i explain exactly what we talk about the dark ages. we mean, you were in the dark ages, we don't mean the world in the dark ages. such a simple mistake that could be rectified to say that there was enlightenment in the stomach. well, the, the,

the baton of enlightenment and science and knowledge passed from europe after the fall of rome to the east. that's not a gander. that's not, you know, so a new version of history that's just putting things right. and it's such a tragedy that in the west, there is still this narrative, that science stopped after the, the, the ancient greeks, and then suddenly popped into existence with galileo and copernicus, and newton. it's nonsense. i mean, i'm glad he's a very explicit chair saying it's precisely because of islam and it was the room and design times that kept the candle of learning a light and they didn't, that printing presses is tangible until the 18 fifty's. i wouldn't know where to start to see 2 ish that ridiculous argument. what your stuff on the sides of islam. i don't know whether you mention some aspects of this in your new series guide guide to life. i mean,

why i don't know whether you talk about your own individual contributions. why did you choose nuclear physics rather than particle physics? and you're going to be talking about nuclear physics in this new show. i don't know . i mean, my, my path to new to physics as a, as a research academic with serendipity. it just happened that i chose to work with a particular professor of physics who was applying mathematical ideas to study the atomic nucleus. i've since then diversified. i'm my main focus now is, is more on more deeper foundational issues and quantum mechanics and then secondary applications in mechanics, in biology, there's a new field of quantum biology which i'm, i'm very active in at the moment what, what is going to biology? ok, so, physicists and chemist if you think about science that we learned schools, physics, chemistry, biology, physicists and chemist by the time they, they study the subject to university will learn about quantum mechanics. this is

the theory on the sub atomic world, how sub atomic particles interact to fit together. biology by and large doesn't have to deal with quantum mechanics. we had to have discount on the last decade or 2 that there are certain processes inside living cells that wouldn't work without help from the mysterious counter intuitive quantum world. and so we're looking at particular examples, mutations in dna. we've just written a paper that's been submitted a published soon, showing that quantum tunneling, the idea that sub atomic particles can jump from a to b. by passing through an energy, there's like a ghost walking through a wall. you don't see in everyday world, in the cold world all the time. that place is very important role in mutations in dna. and we, we know that mutations, we talk about the coven virus and verizon. so it's, it's a very important feature of molecular biology that we're only just waking up to now . and some of that forms part of my what i talk about in this new series will

magellan. a lot of it is more of a collection of the sort of a state of the union where we act more than physics where what do we know now about the nature of space and time in the universe. but every now and again in the program i, i feed in a bit of my own interest to my own research. yeah. you clear up so many minutes? i know you went to iran and talked about how biology, certainly, biological research seems to be jumping ahead. i had 2 countries with certain moral objections, maybe the deep south in the u. s, but no time to get in with it. all. i got to ask you as insights, turning 10 a series you do on the radio life scientific y a p to higgs, higgs, bows on frame. was your favorite interview kind of relevant to our ending this interview joel shortly? absolutely, well, i mean, yes, you're right. so the last time, civic on the b, b. c, radio force. it's the 10th anniversary next week. so i've interviewed 250 fellow

scientists speak to hayes. one of the great, what was lovely was that he showed that normal science because we try to communicate just to simplify, to make things understandable. thoughtful, why the society you don't have our background expertise. that's not always possible . i asked p takes in the interview, could he explain what the famous haze bows on was in 30 seconds and he shook his head and said, no, it's ok. what effect if you're minutes? had he said, noah, this interview is going very well. this will be all edited out. thankfully, it's not live, but he's going to explain this. he spent half a century trying to understand is very complex, hardly mathematical theory about building blocks of our universe. what right did, i have expecting him to be able to summarize it in a few sentences? sometimes we do need to think of it hard of something to more complicated and all of that, him say, no, i can't do. it made it into the final pro professor jim, i'll give it a thank you. my pleasure. and that's it for the show will be back on monday with

the actual albert einstein's nobel prize in physics, the 2021 co. when we can tell you why we don't know whether it will be sunny next week, but can be sure that unless we take action humans will be killed by climate change relatively soon until then, he would watch my social media and tell us whether you think henry kissinger america obama deserve the nobel prize. oh, camera driven by drink shaped bankers and things with dares sinks. we dare to ask

in with this, our is headline stories. the prime minister of molly accuse is french forces of treating terrorist groups in the north of the country. it is only approved by micky . so anthony there arms groups trained by french offices. we have evidence of that, and this is the situation we are currently witnessing molly, and we don't understand it and we can't tolerate. it. also had us lawmakers to mount sanctions on russia, north stream, to pipeline, blaming moscow for a price. sir john europe's gas market. that is despite the market retreating from an all time record after president putin's pledge to pay supplies.