melissa more coming up in today's going underground, but 1st this week, nay. donation media has been all over the revelations from the so called pandora papers that revealed large scale dodgy dealings, and alleged corruption by the global elite. but aside from the islands that are becoming synonymous with tax havens, there was largest economy the united states is arguably been put center stages, the tax haven for the rich and powerful johnny now from battle bra, in vermont. as jack collins, director of the program of inequality and the common good at the institute for policy studies. thank struck for her coming on. yeah, i mean, there are, the usa is suddenly central. not all these caribbean countries are that we're used to knowing about am no mad land was about the poor vagabonds of the united states won an oscar, south dakota. and what was, what are these states got to do with it? and why they globally infamous for a hiding money? yes, well i think that is at the time when the united states lectures, other countries about corruption, we have, we have nothing to stand on now because,

and here's what's interesting, south dakota, it's secret sauce is that it wealthy. people can create a trust in south dakota, that is anonymous, that is untaxed and will exist forever. so if you're trying to build dynastic wealth, south dakota is your place. they've changed their laws to attract what we call dynasty trusts. and none of that money is seen by, i mean, south dakota isn't the richest dave in the union. no, not at all. i mean, there's some, there's a very small wealth management sector that's probably paid quite well. but to be honest, very little of that money touches down in south dakota and the benefits people who live in south dakota now you know, you talking about then as well. slow boy jack, the villanova was on this show. he was quoting oscar wilde and saying that you know, oscar wilde saying charity is not the answer. individual philanthropy is not the

answer you gave out. money that you inherited from the great oscar meyer. fortunate people in the states watching this will know what's going on. why didn't you put that money in? i'm in a magazine about income inequality or create a i mean obviously you are part of this institute now, why give it away? well, you know, i was a young fellow 40 years ago, but, but i just didn't want to benefit from a system of dynastic inheritance where some families, wealth grew and others were struggling. i did give it to several foundations that made good decisions about where to invest it and where to give it to him, you know, make the united states a more equal society. i have no regrets looking back on that. and in fact, that gave me some insight into this hidden well system, because wealthy families are so rounded by what i call the wealth defense industry . lawyers, accountants, wealth managers, who really why you to, to horde your wealth forever. so yeah,

i want to get on to the wells managers and their, their ro influence on us politics in the mood. but i know that you are concerned about what the usa, you call the usaa pre existing condition of extreme wealth and equality. but in recent years, we've heard bernie sanders use the word socialism on prime time. us tv. we've heard joe biden, all the, it's a, is a capitalist talking about the stimulus. and there he is talking about inequality again and again in the game. do you detect a huge see change in the civil discourse of the united states where inequality is now center stage? absolutely, i mean i know to me and eric, but you know, well no i, i as somebody who, you know, i mean i co edit a website called inequality dot org. i've been following these issues for decades. this is a really powerful moment because people are waking up to the ways in which these grotesque concentrations of wealth and power are really wrecking our society and wrecking our lives and wrecking our economy. so, as you know, for the 1st time in

a long time, a majority of people, 6070 percent of people want to tax the very wealthy and sure the wealthy pay their fair share. so these are positive trends. and yet when this, i mean obviously we're hearing rhetoric from by going and the so called squad and so on. when there was a valid socialist like bernie sanders on the ballot. as we know from wiki leaks, there was a deliberate sabotaged campaign from the clinton side of the dnc against him. so when it comes to real power and fundamental power, and i'm sure you've been watching all the negotiations, the book barrel politics is they've been gold. is it? is it all words about the quality rather than actual attacks on wealth foundations, on investment banks and investment income? well, the kinds of things that really need to be tackled well, clearly the, i mean, the us political system has been captured by these wealthy interests by the

corporate interests. and so they, within what happens in washington, d. c is highly constrained by that. the good news is, the popular base and opinion of people is changing and ultimately that'll shift the politics the public is way more where bernie sanders is than they are. where most centrist democrats are, they want to reduce inequality. they want the rich to pay their share, they want to abolish student debt. you know, they want to live in a more equal and healthy society. and yet, we obviously have the coven pandemic, killing hundreds of thousands of americans. do you think the us all i got, i mean, actually incentivized by cove if they've made a lot of money from it, haven't they? you've been talking about how much money they have made, just as only god made money out, the opioid crisis goes, which killed. so many yeah, no, i mean, i think one of the powerful juxtapositions right now is u. s. billionaires have

seen their wealth, go up almost 2 trillion dollars during the pandemic. this is an embarrassment, and this is, and you know, juxtaposed with the loss of life and the loss of livelihood for so many people, that's where some of the popular stagger about inequality is coming from. and there's a tiny segment, i think, of the oligarchy who, who understand this is a risk or that actually genuinely like more, more spur. there's believe that they should speak out for a more fair society. so i think, you know, you know, i think we're, we're, we're seeing a disruption to the normal politics. that doesn't mean that the rich aren't going to be able to block meaningful change right now. but i do think the pressure is building for real change. you don't think, i mean, here in britain of the british prime minister, very, a very, you know, full of expressions about the importance of the free market and for small and medium sized businesses to do the work in increasing wage levels to avoid their

work is falling into poverty, and is it different there? i know that we in china it's famously different because they cracking down on inequality that similarly and biden's america, you know, to some actual difference. what do you think that people wandering around the have turns people wondering around the tory body conference here in britain, they basically say things are things, you know, they're not going to be pitch folks anytime soon. right. well, let's clear. the united states has a very high tolerance for inequality, and that's been true for decades. i think what's changed is more people understand that the rules have been rigged to benefit the wealthy. you know, i think of most people, if you stop people know, nighted states they'd be like, i don't resent that wealthy person over there, especially if they invented something useful. but if they're using their wealth and power to get more wealth and power, they're using our wealth and power to cut their own taxes. could concentrate

monopoly power over segments of the industries squeeze out of businesses, push people aside, then they get mad. and that's clearly the case. and so i think different about it from say, well, my wall street years ago, which was obviously that reaction to the massive top runs and bailouts of the wall street banking system. what's different, why i would say with what's, what's different is said sort of like the cumulative understanding, you know, there's always going to be a segment people in the united states who are hardcore kind of libertarian. magical thinking, you know, about inequality. but i think that growing, you know, people who care about, you know, opportunity for their children, see that the rules are rig that phrase the rules are rigged. both the trumpeters and the bernie sanders, people will all agree. the rules, the economy have been rig to benefit the very wealthy. and then the question is, what do you do about it? and people have different solutions,

but that from visceral gut analysis is broadening. that's what i see changing. ok. well, putting my oligarch hat on, i'd say to you, look at the pandora papers, no one the l. a u s. a wealth advisory firm is on that. if you look at the map of the world, the tool, russia, there's nothing, nothing wrong going on in the united states at all. so the other countries, well, you know, here's the problem. all the leaks came from officer services companies outside the united states, and that's not the place where u. s. oligarchy are going to go for their, you know, wealth defense services. we, we need a couple of good leaks from some of these trust companies. and if anyone's listening and they want to contact me, i can help you, you know, disclose your information confidentially. because that will actually help shift the u. s. dynamic. the fact that the u. s. oligarchy are not name doesn't mean they're not using the same si, procedures, sticks and shell companies opaque trust. they're using all the same tools. they

just haven't been named in the store yet. but you've been investigating inequality for years. and, you know, say the big accounting firms for some of the biggest banks, how is it that they are so able to stuff whistle blowing within their organization? so, i mean, it's better than the u. s. army clearly. yeah, i mean, clearly there are big financial incentives to just keep your mouth quiet and stay. but you know, the fact is the system is cracking. there are people within that, well, defense industry who know what they're doing is harmful, that it's contributing to kind of the got rock of the political system and our economic system. and you know, there are younger people who are working in those companies who are right now, copying information on the thumb drives and not sure what to do with it yet. i believe that. so i think we're going to see this is just the beginning of revelations and i hope from someone from the united states who cares about this. i

hope they do expose some of the abuses here more and more of the abuses here in the us. now you've chatted spiraling inequality and you said it's cumulative since the $20.00 oh $8.00 crisis. i mean, the obvious, quote, those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable if there are not john f. kennedy, if they're not. if the stimulus isn't of the required amount to be able to help the poorest communities in the united states, i was soon before we see violence in the united states, given this is cumulative, and the poor are getting poorer. and boy, are we talking sub saharan africa levels in certain communities as regards poverty, inequality and life expectancy? i don't know the answer to that question except i think the pressure is building. and if the political system fails to respond, then people will go outside the political system, you know, and unfortunately in the us it could go different directions. it could go,

you know, right wing fascism or it could go progressive, bernie sanders populace. right? you know, you know, our, our system and our society is very divided and volatile right now. and there's so much misinformation about what are the real harms and causes of those harms that, that people are confused. so, you know, people like me, our job is to try to explain, you know, how this is happening and who is responsible for people like the people who work in the wealth defense industry. and the politicians who enable them are responsible shot guns, obviously going on the ground once that nature, as much as, as you do at the institute, that maybe people can send it to both of us. it was in the public interest. chuck college. thank you. thanks for having me. after the break, i had the cop $26.00 conferencing draws go enjoying the lockheed martin's wanted. we'll space we. we ask one of the world's greatest science communicators. professor

jim kelley lee of billionaires blasting off into space is just what the world means . all of them all coming up about to have going on the ground. with now and the 21st century, we have a, a panic buying spree and commodities. commodities have had a new all time high, higher than 20 lot higher than at any time in history. and yet what's lagging horribly, gold and silver. this commodities boom is being spurred really by oil. oil is to really the new goal is the global goal is to global currencies to petro dollars, whether since 1971, when the u. s. white from gold to oil, to back its currency. and so j girl, the fear alive today, he would be cornering the oil market to try to support our commodities panic, trying to get offload as we can

imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century. what are the chapters cold, gun violence, school shootings, homelessness? first, it was my job and then it was my family. didn't was my savings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs. i look for everything i can to make this pass. and i end up doing, passing time, the road to the american dream paved with dead refugees at this very idealized image. all this older america makes americans look past the deaths that happen every single day. this is a modem history of the usa. my america. no naughty ah welcome back. in part one, we investigated the billionaires escaping taxes by moving their money to the

british virgin islands and south dakota. but what about those escaping the planet itself? this week's world space week has been dominated by news stories about billionaires whose forays into the upper atmosphere as seen by many as the successor to a state funded space travel. but with the planet tracing capitalism catalyzed climate catastrophe. should we be worried about the potentially billionaire dominated future in space? joining me now is one of this planets. most popular science communicate is jim l. kelly. thanks so much jim. for coming on world space. we go, we have the pandora papers, it's great, isn't it all the billionaires? are they gonna leave us to it back on earth? well, maybe hopefully if let, let, let me pay the taxes and they can go where they like will next tuesday, william shatner, captain kirk, who does a show here on the ortiz and he's calling in a way that launching into space. how important is it that popular culture learn science, communication of the kind that you practice in making people understand why science

is not something to be terrified about? i think, i mean that there were different aspects to it is that you write the science as part of popular culture. one of the things i've always tried to do over the years is, is to embed science within that sort of public conversation that we would talk about . things like spice, travel law, all black holes or genetics. in the same breath that we will talk about sports also, latricia politics, music is part of should be part of the conversation. doesn't mean everyone has to be a scientist. doesn't mean everyone has to be an expert. but there's another aspect to it, which is, i think, increasingly important. and we've certainly seen it in the, over the course of the pandemic. which is that people need to understand the process of science. because in order to trust science to trust scientists, people need to understand how science works. you know this idea about repeatability . the importance of certainty, the gathering of evidence, consensus, be prepared to change your mind to say i was wrong about that because i didn't have enough dates. now i know more, i've changed my mind that seen as

a weakness in politics. that's a you turn in politics in science, it's the way we do it and i think it's vital as well as just the fascinating, sexy stuff about science that we communicate. we should also communicate how we do science. yeah, i mean, scientifically, i can tell that your headphone is rubbing against that microphone, but no will post a severe. i mean, i'm not, i'm not blaming you, but since the grade science communicators, richard fineman up to you, arguably it's got worse than you mentioned cove it misinformation. why is it getting worse? the more prevalent better science communication is getting? well, i mean, to some extent we can blame social media in a public dialogue in all arenas has become so i'm not blaming the printing press. surely i know i know is amplified a problem that is very true, but also is because we are increasingly being deluged by more and more information

. most people, they don't have the attention span to, to understand something in that sort of debt that they may have done in the past. and b, everyone feels they know something about everything, you know, we didn't, in the past before the internet, we didn't have access to all this information. now we have so much there is this tendency to feel that we know more than we do intensity value opinion over evidence . and so it's a struggle while, while at the same time that people are exposed to more thought, good science communication, learning more about science becoming more sensitive, illiterate. on the flip side, there are no the growth of conspiracy theories, the growth of ideas that are anti scientific due to this information. so i don't blame social media and just say it's amplifying a problem. that is part of our society today is just the way it is and we need to find solutions to it. but in fan is away from those who think the vaccination has

microchips are real gates. this space week is sponsored by lockheed martin. i mean, the surely people have reason to worry about how science is built into the military industrial complex. i mean, it is literally because i mean britain is a new space force. trump famously inaugurated by them is continuing a space force was in space, space week is about war. science has always been intimately connected with the military and with security, you know, going all the way back to, you know, the manhattan project and before that in fact. so asked of was ations. science inevitably, unfortunately, has progressed more rapidly at a time when nations need it, particularly, you know, when it comes to things like defense and security. but that's not normal. science is about funding. think science, we like to say science is value free. of course it's not. and scientist certainly

on value free, but it's what we do with that science. what we do with the technology, which is up for debate, for, for good or for evil. one can always argue that even if that space trammel wasn't sponsored by defense, the defense industry, if it was just sponsored by millionaire millionaire philanthropist because they want to know the richard branson's of the law must because they want to go to space . one could also argue, is that the best place to spend our money? why are we spending it more on tackling disease, all curing cancer? and that's an age old problem, but science is broader than that. some of it is, is, is probably unsavory in terms of how it's applied. other science is purely because as humans, we are curious about the world and we want to understand world. yeah, but i mean, i mean on monday we're talking to the nobel prize winner of a physics a century of drives i'm wanted, obviously that's about climate change research. that's always he doing something

good. but on balance like won't be with the nazis or rose shermer vietnam, iraq, when britain was selling chemical weapons do is that i was saying, i mean, science has been, is it worth it on balance in terms of the numbers of dead versus the number saved. but absolutely, because without science, there will be many more people dead science has also cure disease. science has made our lives easier. science has led to enlightenment. we can always pick those examples where science has been useful for bad purposes. but orders of magnitude more science has made our world better. it's given us the technology to, to do everything is given us. the medicine has given us things that make our lives so much easier. we can't say we want to go back to the dark ages because we can pick individual examples of where science has been used in the wrong way on the whole, enlightenment is better than ignorance and science helps us get enlightenment dark

ages. there's a, there's a term, you know, british prime minister barak johnson said the muslim world is literally centuries behind thanks of islam. he wrote an essay, then came the muslims talking about the medieval dark ages and how the christians kept the candle of a learning a light. how can re writing the history of science be used for colonialism and misinformation about the history of science? certainly there is ignorance, about science as ignorance, about how science developed. i mean, i would, i would hope that the prime minister could have read my book part find as well. i will. i explain exactly when we talk about the dark ages. we mean, you were in the dark pages, we don't mean the world in the dark ages. that's such a simple mistake that could be rectified to say that there was enlightenment in the stomach world the,

the baton of enlightenment and science and knowledge passed from europe after the fall of rome to the east. that's not propaganda. that's not, you know, sort of a new version of history that's just putting things right. and it's such a tragedy that in the west there is still this narrative. that science stopped after the, the, the ancient greeks and then suddenly popped into existence with galileo and copernicus, and newton is long since. i mean, i'm glad he's a very explicit here saying it's precisely because of islam and it was the room and design times that kept the candle of learning a light. and they didn't, that printing presses it's tangible until the 18 fifty's. i wouldn't know where to start to, to, to, to militia. that ridiculous argument. people watch your stuff on the sides of islam. i don't know whether you mention some aspects of this in your new series

guide guide to life. i mean, why i don't know whether you talk about your own individual contributions. why did you choose nuclear physics rather than particle physics? and you're going to be talking about nuclear physics in this new show. i don't know . i mean, my, my path to new to physics as a, as a research academic with serendipity. it just happened that i chose to work with a particular professor of physics who was applying mathematical ideas to study the atomic nucleus. i've since then diversified. i'm my main focus now is, is more on more deeper foundational issues and quantum mechanics and then secondary applications in mechanics, in biology, there's a new field of quantum biology which i'm, i'm very active in at the moment what, what is going to biology? ok, so, physicists and chemist if you think about science that we learned schools, physics, chemistry, biology, physicists and chemist by the time they, they study their subject to universal,

will learn about quantum mechanics. this is the theory on the sub atomic world, how sub atomic particles interact to fit together. biology by and large doesn't have to deal with quantum mechanics. we had to have discovered in the last decade or 2 that there are certain processes inside living cells that wouldn't work without help from the mysterious counter intuitive quantum world. and so we're looking at particular examples, mutations in dna. we've just written a paper that's been submitted a public soon showing this quantum tunneling that the idea that sub atomic particles can jump from a to b by passing through. and if you guys like it goes to walking through a wall, you don't see in everyday world, in the quantum world, it happens all the time. that plays a very important role in mutations in dna. and we, we know that mutations when we talk about the coven virus and verizon. so it's, it's a very important feature of molecular biology that we're only just waking up to now

. and some of that forms part of my what i talk about in this new series will magellan, a lot of it is more of a collection of the sort of a state of the union where we act in more than physics. where what do we know now about the nature of space and time in the universe, but every now and again in the program i, i feed in a bit of my own interest in my own research. yeah. you clear up so many minutes? i know you went to iran and talked about how biology, certainly, biological research seems to be jumping ahead. i had 2 countries with certain moral objections, maybe the deep south in the u. s, but no time to get in with it all. i got to ask you as insights, turning 10 a series you do on the radio life scientific y a p, the higgs, higgs both on frame was your favorite interview kind of relevant to our ending this interview short shortly. absolutely, well, i mean, yes, you're right. so the lifetime civic on the b, b. c radio 4th is the 10th anniversary next week. so i've interviewed 250 fellow

scientists. pizza hayes. one of the great, what was lovely was that he showed the normal science because we try to communicate, to simplify, to make things understandable. thoughtful, wider society. you don't have our background expertise. that's not always possible . i asked p takes in the interview. could he explain what the famous haze bows on was in 30 seconds? and he shook his head and said, no, i said, okay, what if like if you minutes had he said, never thought it is going very well. this will be all edited out. thankfully, it's not live, but he went to explain this. he spent half a century trying to understand is very complex, hardly mathematical theory about building blocks of our universe. what right did i have expecting him to be able to summarize it in a few sentences? sometimes we do need to think of it hard or something to more complicated and all of that, him say, no, i can't do it, made it into the final pro professor jim, i'll give you the thank you my pleasure and that's it for the show will be back on

monday with the air to albert, i'm sounds, nobel prize in physics in 2021 co winner. who can tell you why we don't know whether it will be sunny next week, but can be sure that unless we take action humans will be killed by climate change relatively soon until then, he will talk to y social media and tell us whether you think henry kissinger america obama deserve their nobel prize. ah, a better survival guide. a federal with when we get the rest the 7 years

a report. ah. ah, ah ah. ah. ah. a pool. ah, with these are the 4 people who pulled the trigger and survive something and survival. one another harness, things that i had to face was not having

a face at a low expectation or life. i accepted accept the fact that i may be out of work. we had no fears, general change pretty fast for shots. different stories behind the bullets falling on his sword. austrian chancellor, sebastian kurtz, quit submit allegations of embezzlement and bribery. plunged into darkness. the lights go out in lebanon after the 2 biggest power stations in the crisis hit country run out of fuel cause in the national grid to collapse with a u. s. law. make his demand sanctions on russia's node stream to pipeline. blaming moscow for a price search on europe's gas market. and despite the figures retreating from an all time record after president putin pledged to be supplies and in an

explosive accusation, the prime minister marley blamed.