to cast stick modeling, what about how we have such little data on climate temperature at least when you are writing your very famous papers, we didn't have ice core data. how are we able to model data, which was just a tiny fraction of the age when i think we had some idea of the past, we have to pass data from the predator measure data. so, so we knew what national comm everybody was and the question knew whether you could separate the national trauma variables here that we knew about from the man's impact, which is on a short time change or time scale. and to separate these 2 long time changes and the short time changes to my impact was these are challenges we out of that time as well. so we had so, so somebody uses them so gradually, right now demonstrated quietly that man is changing time and we have to do

something about it. i'll get on to the opponents during your search in a moment. but one thing that may surprise people who don't know as much as you do is your use of quantum field theory. i thought quantum mechanics is all about tiny little things and you're using something about if you're ethical about bad about oceans, which a huge things wanted to be a famous a physicist and you are now the device take for a physics unfortunately. so i went to calmer research, i found it on the side in the china problem, and the other stuff i realize are some of the techniques that are good in physics are going to prior to climate change. and i guess this had some impact. yeah. it from that on so i can tell it's too complicated to be able to exp in,

in the short interview when you are doing your famous papers in the sixty's. it wasn't a long afterwards. i mean, because you need to the 70, the cia wrote that man made climate change. i the, there paper in 9074 is called a study of climate loading logical research. as it pertains to intelligence problems. they said primatologist don't recognize what the cia knows. that it began in 1960, we're predicting in the era of drought famine in political unrest. how did the cia have the data it was using your work good to know what you knew about man made climate change? i didn't have matching to act or during hours or acting or in that direction, but you know, i shifted by charles such as other comments. i just want to understand the prediction of coverage. i was very happy that i had many co workers that were very good in tracking with the public and, and it's warming the public that we have

a problem. so i can stand back to britain too much. i and so i was already quite fortunate at ours, embedded in a good scientific community that was also very good at communicating with the public. so i could sit back and do my science. i'm there now. the interaction little public were terrible on my car to your site. would you go to you hunter? i'm right now because, you know, we talk on this program about how we don't really know the impact on climate change of the u. s. military budget. the pentagon budget, it's all secret. how much are they contribute to fossil fuel emissions? your work on the 1991, a good persian gulf war, they were trying to work out when the burning of the co 8 oil fields in terms of fluid dynamics. what impacted that have on carbon dioxide emissions. here's my own paper that tom remove pointing out the impact of scurrying who on sales and so

forth. and just to point out that there was a, an interaction between the source of actions and, and climate. but i wasn't already involved very much in network. i wrote, i wrote a k, it was in, wasn't actually significant, as it turned out in that paper at all. um, i suppose a while you've been doing all of this work. you know that there been fossil fuel companies, rubbishing your research, and the research of others? what was it like doing all that work on stochastic modeling, knowing that it's called a global climate. coalitions wanted by exxon, chevron and others were trying to make out the your research was nonsense. one, always some interesting companies that wanted to try to deny the fact that we're having time at change, but i never had a strong impact on the, on the publish. so if you're interested to people, they're trying to support that idea, but it never came really across in the public. so i didn't really have any problem

argue with them. yeah. but apparently they had some scientists who would appear on t v saying things like, no, no, this is wrong, they don't have the data. it's not true. yes, but no, you took them seriously. i mean, the immunity has all they on the so the problem monday, interact interacting with scientist for so it's, it's very difficult to influence the property as a whole for to try to deny the fact that we have a problem who was injured in groups and trying to which i know we don't have a problem with and i don't really get across in the topic. well, as you say, i mean it's up. some people would say, belatedly, they understand it. how do you think politicians are responding to the implications of your such today? and especially i have called 26. i think the politicians have difficulty responding to long term problems a several decades. they use who are sponsoring problems from one you to the next to maybe the next election. but the idea that they have longer term problems to

attack and respond to this way difficult to get across the partition. so it's much easier to speech in the public ashley and then to actually partition because they were used to trying to get a more short term response for the public for it all they're doing. and then i had a great, great, a different is bringing the wrong, so are problems that we have across to the public. but also some are trying to do this but assist over it. so very difficult and can we, is your work to quantify it? well, in terms of evaluation, the impact of attempts my governments to limit climate change. i think bruce, cecily sean point out that we had a promenade should be doing something we didn't really analyze to match what was being done. and because ashley was not very much ben gun regardless or simply as

a saying before, they're not used to looking or responding to long term problems. and although they occasionally you find articles, newspapers, and so forth. this is really no ongoing long term discussion in the reading will remain on these really don't temp of is i think where the, the 1st time that is came up into more general discussion in the policies. i think some people that they found ways of expressing things that with all the scientists when i would bring across to well, so we're very happy that the younger generation you realize member problem and not being very effective in trying to get this or bring news across to the public and dad, as you know, many of them are not happy with the 1.5 degrees centigrade level in the paris agreement. i mean, what d i'm, i don't know whether i can just plug a number into one of your formula to work out whether the species will be okay or not is what do you think of the paras climate agreement in the 1.5 degrees

centigrade? doug, we do have such a such conferences and res hospice is 1.5 centigrade enough in terms of a target. i think that's not the right question. i mean it's, it's the order of magnitude. you're talking about between 1.2 and 1.8 degrees as i forth with this one. point 5 is just an os around number. it's the order of magnitude yet we have to strive for and the impact that we'll have on the corner is a whole for to get some idea of how this interaction between this goals of commer change and the actual, the economic policies that we pursue. i think the issue kind of feeling the understanding of the relation between a short so critical decisions and, and, and investments and so forth. and the long term impact on the in the additions is

something which i think we're not, we're to bring a truck or to cross properly to the new demand yet. so i swap one of the problems that we have is assigned is to try to get people's aware of it on some impacts. is what they're doing on the common change or timescale. obviously, countries like china would say they've always been looking at it long term, but i suppose i've got to ask you really since it is a century since einstein got the same award. what did you think? how did you find out that he won the nobel prize along with your, to co in a speaker? man, i'll be in georgia for easy. i think i was sitting at the radio and then somebody called and said, you know, i saw something. i said no joke, they're really good. no, well that's not something to happen to chime overnight and i wasn't expecting it. i mean, are you talking about the influence of a lot,

many other people. so sometimes that are not news to ashley response to the media and a public trip to this problem. and i was quite surprised with what this happened. and do you think your next, i don't know what you're working on right now. maybe on trying to find out whether it'll rain in 10 days time. was that just too complicated a problem? nasa too complicated problem. so now on my basic idea was also to, to evolution the basic idea of physics and have a new way of looking physics and particles and so forth. but nobody takes me very seriously unfortunately. so i have to accept that as well as you said, the young people of this world do your hopes for cop 26. will you be monitoring it or will you be working on equations and the car? 26. i'm not sure i wasn't really you all very much and i think you know,

less this conference in glasgow here about where world leaders are supposed to come in and use your equations. a gentleman to policy. well, i'm very happy when people use my equations and use my arguments, but i, i'm not really a partial type. so i, i'm not, i don't find what ways to bring it across to the policy makers. i'm very happy with other people. i use all these up and, and try to make it more complex proposal and thank you. thank you. i'm thank you. congratulations. after the break leveling up or record levels of inequality up to the u. k. prime minister and as his welfare cuts to 6000000 made reveal dodgy dealings and corruption allegations against the global elite. does this represent another crisis for capitalism? all of them all coming up about 2 of going underground

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with ah, when i see black america, i see part of my so when i was growing up like a marriage, a spoke to me when white australia did not. those who say black lives matter is a movement we are importing from america. know nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where white lives mattered. and i was not white like miss noon. and i wasn't noon from black america. i learned how to speak back to whiteness. aboriginal people here are more every day. we're out loaded system. now with the

police were at war with statistics. i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then there are other schiller friends in daycare. ah welcome back. the estimated corona virus death joel in the usa is equivalent to more than 3000000 killed in china is a proportion of population comparable to the death toll in mows cultural revolution . will you k p embarrassed? johnson slashing welfare for the poorest this week. named checked italian economist and arguable precursor fascism feel free to parade. to who said democracy was an illusion. joining me now from new york is economist professor franco miller. lavette shall banker. thanks so much for coming on your parade. toe, our british prime minister here was talking about, um, should that be

a good good then? then he was talking about parade. so i know you been writing about how inequality is taking center stage in your liberal economies from washington to well to, to european capitals. well, the actually is cited by right, i have to say actually comes for me at a very interesting time because i was just writing a job or a trace of course, a controversial figure politically because i considered him as a precursor to fascism which i don't think it is true actually, you know, i did, i did 1923. exactly. when it came to power, you became a point. it was so they need to be a senator, but basically he died within a couple of months and really was never involved. but he was a conservative economy, he believed that the growth is crucial, that actually poverty cannot be eliminated except for growth. and i mean, i run

a goal for read, there was a person who was the 1st started interpersonally i mean equality using the fiscal date. so he was actually nicole, i'm used to studied inequality by the law, but believe that you could not change. so after the lawrence johnson would you really use such a figure? conservative thinker off to rule, but on some might say that he was a civil tenuously cutting a 20 pound payment to the 6000000 poorest people in this country that some say will relieve to 800000 people falling below the poverty line. i think you been writing recently that the well that the me ologist is obviously a blame for coven deaths, for not reacting properly. i mean, that's that field. the politicians and the leads don't seem to be accountable for rising inequality. i do think that we were all. busy like all professions don't place the effects of 1st of

all, i mean, you mentioned that to me ologist. they were as we know wrong, you know, from the beginning to the end and actually dividers has been playing games with that. because whenever they think, actually they have been in control, things would change the protection of the vaccines where it has been amazingly fast . so that was really, really bright on, on the other hand, also for the economy, it was a very difficult barrier because when we do projections, we do projections, assuming that basically we are in control of all the virus. but we have seen these projections have changed over the last 2 years and almost depending on what countries were doing well, you know, in the beginning and in the middle of that now. and this countries have often switch positions repeatedly wrong. i mean, you are the well bank though, you know how wrong the world bank was developing countries as regards growth and macro economic policy. you can't blame them too much. you know,

the point where projection is all, if they don't know them very seriously, because their projections are always projections based on the current knowledge. and the assumption that there will be no dramatic and significant changes in the future. and as we know, actually dramatic and really unexpected and interesting craddick events happen. and when they happen to like to call the to happen all the projection start off. so if you were to look at the, i met with the world bank projections that the $1019.00, it's not surprising that actually they were off they, they couldn't do it bad. the problem with projects and see really if you're wrong and nothing spectacular has happened. over that period and i think you're in a problem. well, babs, most dramatic from you has been something you said about china. the china is obviously targeting inequality. we had from a guest only the of the day. who is saying, say, the shortages of certain times of energy is government ordained because of the

climate catastrophe. the government is really cha getting. now the inequality that is increased as the chinese miracle, as continued. why compare the many deaths of a mouse cultural revolution with the near liberal responds to cove it and say the united states? well, you know, we can compare because that from one they ran to another event with all the sort of the friends say plus young guy day like carefully. you know, the us that still is enormous and absolutely was something that nobody could have expected. i mentioned very often the study that was done over 2019 by the johns hopkins university and the economy intelligence unit that actually for the u. s. is number one, there are some preparedness to face dependent. surely. i mean, yeah, but the economist, i mean let's face it, we, we, we could see our youtube video,

but the economists historically, even the intelligence unit. and we knew that they don't have a universal health care system. the health system is completely inefficient because it spends the us taxpayer spends way more on health care and they don't get the provision show you what they expect us to be hit was my bad demick, obviously why you know what it now. it seems obvious, but it didn't seem obvious that and we, i think we're definitely surprised by the extent when it was recent compared to the u. s. b during the civil war and vietnam war and so on. so you can, as a said, you can compare it to the cultural revolution with that adjustment for the population size. and if you would go, there is no doubt about that. and i think a lot of would be a bit about that. especially the fact that the crisis is not over. so we're actually at some point we don't know if we have 2 thirds of the overall best or maybe 60 percent or maybe one. so it is absolutely still or no, but it is

a huge number because in the propaganda context of this, if china has done loads of crony contracts from profit driven corporations acted as new liberal, you states, you think that subsequent digital china in western media would be accused of genesis, well, you know, if i mean the corresponding number for china, you know, 700000 deaths into us would have been like 3000000. so i believe that kind of a $3000000.00 would have been mentioned very many times in as fascinating the, you do say the post pandemic, liberal labor market look said to be creating a globalization that will now hit the middle class as we've seen. how well, i mean it has the bail out, the middle classes to an extent, but historically, since the seventy's neoliberalism, is it obviously blue color working classes? well, i think actually, what will i say sion, a playstation that we have become,

become aware very much is the ability to work remotely. which means that physically obviously don't have to be at your place at work. now that means greater possibilities for people in the less developed countries replace people in the rich and base because you know, a certain number of jobs and then the silly from you know, islander allows and not i want to know new york and the new employees are cheaper, i think they would take the positions of dose from the reach bank. so i would actually see 2 things here on the one which is actually good or less develop the labor market there. but the negative one for the rich, just because it further substitute middle class jobs are labor from, from the country. and i would like to go, i mean,

what is the state of the bubble for economist at the moment? i mean, i know just the pandora papers released this month. no us politicians were in it. and i know that you've commented on the fact that it is. it is axiomatic amongst weston journalists. say they didn't nation journalists that capitalism and democracy are associated and you cause some doubt on that. well, i think that actually, historically, that was not true. so you know, one doesn't need to spend too much time because you can kind of a separate place for the last century. and most of them, i mean, i will start, i mean, not august example, fascist. and he's only been in south america. even taken, united states that was actually a slave owning entry until 865. and it was and, and even you can take britain, which very limited french it written with. the french is 8 percent of the

population that the democracy today. so, you know, don't even later in the us for votes for people who are up still, but they're going to be late, 65. and then i mean one cannot even until 9 to 65 and moment for the right to vote. but so actually if you just look at a number of country years, different police and democracy, i think that number is relatively small. it's probably like 20 percent. now of course, corporations that fundable additions are all talking about climate change. just as the activists are, all of a sudden was the money to be made as has been described by the green. you deal the bull additions as well as those on the right. do you think it's possible for the growth, obsessed, new liberal nations at all cost to fully comprehend and to enact policies that will

stop the annihilation of the human species? you know that i have a little bit of a different opinion there because i very much for growth because i believe your only solution, the world geography is really now the issue in rich countries is that politically, it's quite impossible to implement policy seriously deal with climate change in the wall and the example that i really like it was which i think the writing is not, not on the didn't always a huge producer of what i did is now increasing exploration in the arctic. and on top of that, that policy supported by majority of the population of norway and it normally is a country that is quite aware of climate change is the richest country in the world . so the question that they asked myself, and actually i wrote about that. i said, you know, many people are fighting for, i mean, guess i'm

a change. if you cannot convince people in the rich, no way to reduce their income in production, that's how are you going to come in brazil or rag or, or nigeria with the incomes which are one 5th of know. so i think this is the fundamental political issue that they really don't know how to deal with. i just finally, it's 27 years today. john nash won the nobel prize of his work on game theory. why do you think of game theory is useful in the current crisis as, as on the one side we hear of a get on, on the other we hear of optimistic signs that washington b gene are obsessed by inequality. well, i think it is very, i mean, you will actually as you know, it was actually invented into 1946 book a long time for norman and morgan stanley and sort of where the founders. and it gives me useful in economics, in many sense, been particularly when you have limited competition so that each monopolies are

monopoly, already published. technically, we actually take into account the action of the other side. and it was quite a long way political science is precisely in, on the topics that you mentioned when you had 2 superpowers in the past. it started b u. s. for us and china. so it does, i think actually a very mundane, ordinary life to actually survive the will to promote the brand of it. thank you. thank you very much. it was a pleasure talking to you that's over the show will be back on wednesday, 51 years to the day of the f. b. i's arrest of activist angela davis. cold, a dangerous terrorist by president nixon. you can watch our interview on going underground, allow you to our channel until then keep in touch with our social media. let us know whether you think the chinese economic model, good fight inequality. nato nations. ah,

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these people learn from their own experience. how vulnerable of business is to the bank. so he pushes my business over, the age, pushes me right to the edge, bankruptcy. now i realize we will good. this isn't just the back that may be involved in this is the concept. see, thumbs. it is the lawyers. these people have got you want on their stories at a walk kind of whistle blower. tell people's marriages have broken up and lost their family homes. it is spectacularly devastating for people's lives. have committed suicide, but left behind north. the explicitly state that it was the constant intimidation and billing by bank officers that late them to i took the spear, it's obscene, these people up nor saw.

so what he's got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk with the stories that shaped the week. we marked 20 years since the u. s. and its allies invaded afghanistan, toppling the taliban regime and, and now in the wake of the pentagon, pull out many questions are still being asked with violence. they're continuing to rage lights out for facebook, whatsapp and instagram after the company experienced massive outages twice during the week, leaving the firm, nursing a $60000000.00 loss and ramping gas prices drop in europe after russia