now, from hamburg, and germany is one of the 2021. no, well prize win is professor class hassle than i thank you so much for coming on. congratulations. i've got to ask, i'm not going to ask how you heard about it. i know everyone always asked that question, although people probably want to know. but why is it? as is so often asked of you, we can't predict whether it will rain in 10 days time. but we can predict that the climate change may annihilate the human species. well, the problem is that it's not just natural religion, which is difficult, but it also lives impact on time to distinguish between mazda impact and that's a lot of very difficult and it's very difficult to get across a new britain. or my problem is that i would turn 5102030 years. we used to responding to them or no one or 2 years. so there's no response to climate change or something which you're pretty sure you're not,

you're still in the line to treat, operate, you know, boys and girls today they graduate. they used to cast tick modeling to model gambling in the city of london. your most famous papers, some of them because there's so many involve using stochastic modeling. what about how we have such little data on climate temperature? at least when you were writing your very famous papers, we didn't have ice core data. how are you able to model data, which was just a tiny fraction of the age when i think we have some idea of the past, we had to pass data from the printer or so. so we knew what national come everybody was. and the question knew whether can you separate the national trauma variables here that we knew about from the man's impact, which is on a short time change or time scale and to separate these 2 long time changes.

and the short time changes to my impact was these are challenges we had at that time as well. so we had to so somebody uses them. so i 0 now demonstrated quite clearly that mine is changing time and we have to do something about it. i'll get on to the opponents during your search in a moment. have but one, a thing that may surprise people who don't know as much as you do. it is a euro use of quantum field theory. i thought quantum mechanics is all about tiny little things and you're using something about if you're ethical about dad, about oceans, which are huge things wanted to be a famous a physicist. i'm you are now the device take for a physics circle that are fairly not,

unfortunately. so i went to do common research. i found it on the sign in china problem. and the other stuff i realize are some of the techniques that are good in physics are going to prior to climate change. and i guess this had some impact. yeah. it from that on. so i can tell it's too complicated to be able to explain in a short interview when you are doing your famous papers in the sixty's. it wasn't long afterwards. i mean, because in to the 70 the cia wrote that man made climate change in the paper. in 9074 is called a study of climate logic. logical research, as it pertains to intelligence problems. they said primatologist don't recognize what the cia knows that it began in 1960. we are predicting in the era of drought famine in political unrest. how did the cia have the data? or were they using your work? it know what you knew about my mate climate change. i didn't have much interact or

what they were doing. ours are acting in that direction. but you know, i shifted by jungle such as a climate scientist, i understand that the physics is coverage. i was very happy that i had many co workers that were very good in tracking with the public. and it's warming the public that we have a problem. so i can stand back to britain most science. so i was already, unfortunately ours embedded in a good sign of a community that was also very good communicating with the public. so i could sit back and do my science. i'm then at the interaction that are public were taking a lot of my car to your site. would you go to you? i'm right now because, you know, we talk on this program about how we don't really know the impact on climate change of the u. s. military budget, the pentagon budget, it's all secret. how much are they contribute to fossil fuel emissions?

your work on the 1991, a good persian gulf war. they were trying to work out when the burning of the co 8 oil fields in terms of fluid dynamics, what impacted that have on carbon dioxide emissions. here is not going to pay but not tom remote pointing out the impact to spurring who also is. and so forth, from the just to point out that it was in interaction between the source of actions and, and climate. british almost already involved very much in network. i wrote, i wrote a claims in wasn't actually significant, as it turned out in, in that paper at all. um, i suppose a while you've been doing all of this work. you know that there been fossil fuel companies, rubbishing your research, and the research of others. what was it like doing all that work on stochastic modeling, knowing that it's called a global climate coalition. swanson, by exxon chevron and others were trying to make out the your research was nonsense

. one, always some interested to companies that wanted to try to deny the fact that we're having trauma change, but i never had a strong impact on the, on the publish those if you are interested to people, they're trying to support an idea. but it never came really across in that public. so i didn't really have any problem arguing with them. yeah. but apparently they had some scientists who would appear on t v. 's and things like no, no this is wrong. they don't have the data. it's not true. yes, good. no, you took them seriously. i mean, the media has all they on the so the problem and then to act interacted with scientists for so it's, it's very difficult to influence the property as a whole. so to try to deny the fact that we're having a problem with interest groups and trying to pretend that we don't have a problem with that. and i don't really get across in the public. well, as you say, i mean it's up. some people would say it, belatedly,

they understand it. how do you think politicians are responding to the implications of your such today? and especially i had to call 26. i think the politicians have difficulty responding to long term problems are to go over several decades. they used to respond during prominence from one you to the next to maybe the next election. but the idea that they have longer term problem to, to attack and respond to this way difficult to get across the partition. so it's much easier to speech in the public ashley. and so actually partition because they're more used to trying to get a more short term response for the public for it all they're doing. and then i had a great great a difficulties bringing the wrong policy or problems that we have across the public. but also some are trying to do this but assist over it so very difficult. and can we, is your work to quantify or in terms of evaluation,

the impact of attempts my governments to limit climate change? i think bruce, cecily sean point out that we had a problem. they should be doing something we didn't really and eyes to match what was being a good down. and because ashley was not very much been gone. the gauntlet was simply as a saying before, they're not used to looking or responding to long term problems. and although they occasionally you find articles, newspapers and so forth, this is really no ongoing long term discussion in reading will remain on these really don't temp of as i think, where the 1st time that is came up into more general discussion in the policies. i think to the people that they found ways of expressing things that were on the board and scientists when i were to bring across to well. so we're very happy that the younger generation you realize, member problem and not being very effective in trying to get this or bring news

across to the public. and dad, as you know, many of them are not happy with the 1.5 degrees centigrade level in the paris agreement. i mean, what d i'm, i don't know whether i can just plug a number into one of your formula to work out whether the species will be okay or not. is what do you think of the paris climate agreement in the 1.5 degrees centigrade? yeah, we do have such a such conferences and res hospice is 1.5 centigrade enough in terms of a target. i think that's not the right question. i mean it's, it's the order of magnitude. you're talking about between 1.21.8 degrees as i forth with this one. point 5 is just an us around number. it's the order of magnitude yet we have to strive for and the impact that we'll have on the economy as a whole. so to get some idea of how this interaction between the skulls of commer change and the actual, the economic policies that we pursue,

i think, to get a feeling pretty understanding of the relation between a short so critical decisions and, and, and, and the investments. and so forth, and the long term impact on the, in the additions is something which i think we're not, we're to bring across across property to the new demand yet. so i swap one of the problems that we have is assigned is to try to get people's aware of it on some impacts. is what they're doing on the common change or timescale. obviously, countries like china would say they've always been looking at it long term, but i, so as i've got to ask you really since it is a century since einstein got the same award, what did you think? oh, wow. did you find out that he won the nobel prize along with your not to go in a speaker may not be in georgia for easy. i think i was sitting there the radio

and then somebody called and said you haven't. no, i something i said no joke, they're really good. no, well that's not something to happen to chime overnight and i wasn't expecting. i mean are you talking about the importance of many other people? so sometimes that are not news to ashley response to the media in a public trip to this program. and i was quite surprised with what this happened. and do you think your next, i don't know what you're working on right now. maybe on trying to find out whether it will rain in 10 days time or is that just too complicated a problem? nasa too complicated problems? no, no, on my my, my basic idea was also to, to evolution with a basic idea of physics and have a new way of looking physics and particles and so forth. but nobody takes me very

seriously unfortunately. so i have to work except that act well, as you said, the young people of this will do your hopes for cop 26. will you be monitoring it or will you be working on equations and the car? 26. i'm not sure i wasn't where do you all very much and i think you know, less this conference in glasgow here about where world leaders are supposed to come in and use your equations. a gentleman to policy. well, i'm very happy when people use my equations and use my arguments, but i, i'm not really a questionable type. so i, i don't want what ways to bring it across to the, to the partnership measures. i'm very happy with other people. i use all these up and, and try to make it more public for as a basil and thank you. thank you. i'm thank you. congratulations. after the break leveling up or record levels of inequality up to the u. k. prime minister in his welfare cuts to 6000000 made revealed dodgy dealings and corruption allegations

against the global elite. does this represent another crisis for capitalism? all of them all coming up about 2 of going underground ah, ah, ah mm. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy

confrontation, let it be an arms race is on a fence bearing dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult times. time to sit down and talk with her. all those driven by drink shaped banks centers and those with theirs sinks. we dare to ask in a welcome back. the estimated grown of ours deaths roll in the usa

is equivalent to more than 3000000 killed in china as a proportion of population comparable to the death toll in mows cultural revolution . will you k p. m, boris johnson, slashing welfare for the poorest this week? named checked italian economist and arguable precursor fascism feel free to parade . to who said democracy was an illusion. joining me now from new york is economist professor franco miller lavette shabby banker. thanks so much for coming on your parade to our british prime minister. he was talking about, um, should that be a good good thing that he was talking about per h o. i know you been writing about how inequality is taking center stage in your liberal economies from washington to well to, to european capitals. well, the actually say rains or it is assigned to, right. i have to say actually comes for me at a very interesting time because i was just writing a job, or is of course,

a controversial figure politically. because i considered him as a precursor to fashion, which i don't think it is true actually. you know, i did, i did 1923. exactly. when it came to power, it became a point. it was so they need to be a senator, but basically he died within a couple of months and really was never involved. but he was a conservative economy. he believed that the growth is crucial, that actually poverty cannot be eliminated except for growth. and i mean, i run a goalie, brenda was a person who was the 1st started interpersonal income inequality using the fiscal date. so he was actually in a call to started inequality by the law, but believe that you could not change. so after that, morris johnson would probably use such a figure, conservative thinker off to rule, but on so might say that he was a civil tenuously cutting a 20 pound payment to the $6000000.00 poorest people in this country. that some say

will really do 800000 people falling below the poverty line. i think you been writing recently that the? well, they're pretty me ologist. obviously a blamed for coven deaths for not reacting properly. i mean, that's their field. the politicians and the leaves. don't seem to be accountable for rising inequality. i do think that we were all i, all professions felt a surprise. the effects of 1st of all, i mean, you mentioned it to me ologist. they were, as we know, wrong, you know, from the beginning to the end. and actually the virus has been playing games with them because whenever they think, actually they have been in control. things would change the production of the vaccines where it has been amazingly fast. so that was really, really right on, on the other hand, also for the economy is very difficult barrier,

because when we do projections, we do projections, assuming that basically we are in control of all the virus. but then we have seen these projections have changed over the last 2 years and almost depending on what countries were doing well, you know, in the beginning, then in the middle of then now, and this countries have often switch position repeatedly wrong. i mean, you were in the world bank so you know how wrong the world bank was, were developing countries as regards growth and macro economic policy. you can't blame them too much. you know, the point way projections is all if they don't take them very seriously because their projections always project based on the current knowledge. and the assumption that there will be no dramatic a significant changes in the field. and we know actually dramatic and really unexpected. and you're seeing graphic events happen, and when they happen to like to call it happen,

all the projections start off. so if you were to look at the, i'm there for the world bank projections, 50019. it's not surprising that actually they were off. they, they couldn't do it. the problem with projections, if, really, if you're wrong and nothing spectacular has happened over that period, and i think you're in a problem. well, perhaps most dramatic from you has been something you said about china. the china is obviously targeting inequality. we had from a guest only the other day who was saying say, the shortages of certain types of energy is government ordained because of the climate catastrophe. the government is really targeting now the inequality that is increased as the chinese miracle has continued. why compare the many deaths of miles cultural revolution with the new liberal response to cov, in say, the united states?

well, you know, we can compare because that from one they ran to another event with all the sort of defense april, bosky on. got a like, carefully, you know, the us that still is enormous. that absolutely was something that nobody could have expected. i mention very often that i did it over 2019 by the johns hopkins university and the economy intelligence unit that actually for the u. s is number one, there are some preparedness to face dependent. surely, i mean, yeah, but the economist, i mean, let's face it, we, we, we could see our youtube video, but the economists historically, even the intelligence unit. and we knew that they don't have a universal health care system. the health system is completely inefficient because it spends the us taxpayer spends way more on health care. and they don't get the provision. show me what to expect us to be hit worse. my bad demick obviously, well, you know what, you know, it seems obvious, but it didn't seem obvious that and we, i think we're definitely surprised by the extent when it was recent compared to the

u. s. b during the civil war and vietnam war and so on. so you can, as a said, you can compare it to the cultural revolution with that adjustment for the population size. and if you would go, there is no doubt about that. and i think a lot of would be beat that, especially the fact that the crisis is not over. so we're actually at some point, we don't know if we have 2 thirds of the best all or maybe 60 percent or maybe one ha. so it is absolutely still or no, but it is a huge number because in the propaganda context of this, if china has done loads of crony contracts from profit driven corporations acted as new liberal, you states, you think that subsequent digital china in western media would be accused of genesis, well, you know, we've china, corresponding number for china, you know, 700000 deaths into us would have been like 3000000. so i believe that kind of

a $3000000.00 would have been mentioned very many times in as fascinating the, you do say the post pandemic, new liberal labor market look said to be creating a globalization that will now hit the middle class as we've seen. how well, i mean it has the bail out, the middle classes to an extent, but historically, since the seventy's neoliberalism, is it obviously blue color working classes? well, i think i actually got a playstation that we can become aware very much for the ability to work remotely. which means that physically obviously don't have to be at your place at work. now that means greater visibility for people in the less developed countries replace people in the rich countries because you know, a certain number of jobs and then the silly from, you know,

tile under allows and not, i want to know new york and these new employees are cheaper, i think they would take the position of those from the reach bank. so i would actually see those things here if you want to, which is actually good for life development for the labor market there. but the negative one for the rich families because it further substitute that middle class jobs are labor from from the country and our labor. ready i mean, what is the state of the bubble for economist at the moment? i mean, i noticed the pandora papers released this month. no us politicians were in it. and i know that you've commented on the fact that it is. it is axiomatic amongst western journalists. say they didn't nation journalists that capitalism and democracy are associated and you cause some doubt to them that well,

i think that actually, historically, that was not true. so, you know, one doesn't need to, to spend too much time because you can kind of benefits for the last century spent . most of them, you know, start, i mean, not just example of fascist and it's only but countries in south america, even take a united states that was actually a slave owning entry until $865.00 and it and, and even you can take britain which are very limited french, it written with the french is 8 percent of the population. there's a democracy today. so, you know, i don't even later in the us for vote for people who are out, but they're going to be on delayed in 65. and then a $65.00 and movement for the right to vote. but so actually if you just look at number of country years,

different and democracy, i think that number is relatively small. it's probably like 20 percent. now of course, corporations that fund up all additions, all talking about climate change, just as the activists are all of a sudden, obviously money to be made as has been described by the green. you deal the bull additions as well as those on the right. do you think it's possible for the growth, obsessed, new liberal nations at all cost to fully comprehend him to enact policies that will stop the annihilation of the human species? you know, i have a little bit of a different opinion there because i very much for growth because i believe you only solution the world poverty is really wrong. now the issue in rich countries is that politically, it was like impossible to implement policies that would seriously deal with climate

change in the re well and the example that i really like it was which i think is writing. this is not, not only that, the norway is a huge producer of thought, but it is now increasing exploration in the arctic. and on top of that, that policy supported by majority of the population of norway. and it normally is a country that is quite aware of climate change, any 3 just going to bring to, well. so the question that they ask myself, and actually i wrote about that. i said, you know, many people are fighting for, i mean, if i'm a change, if you're going to convince people in the rich, no way to reduce their income in production, that's how are you going to be in brazil or rag or nigeria with incomes which are one 5th of not. so i think this is the fundamental political issue that they really don't know how to deal with. i just finally, it's 27 years today. john nash won the nobel prize of his work on game theory. why

do you think of game theory is useful in the current crisis? as, as on the one side we hear of a get on, on the other we hear of optimistic signs that washington raging are obsessed by inequality. well, i think it is very, i mean us will actually as you know, it was actually invented into 1946 took a long time for norman and morgan stanley and sort of where the founders. and it gives me useful in economics, in many sense, when, particularly when you have limited competition so that each monopoly or a monopoly, or the bubble is technically we is actually taking into account the action of the other side. and it was quite a long way political science is precisely in the, on the topics that you mentioned when you had 2 superpowers in deposit. but they are starting to u. s. for us and china. so it does, i think actually a very mundane or didn't

a real life to actually survival. the species promote the brand of it. thank you. thank you very much. it was a pleasure talking to you that's over the show will be back on wednesday, 51 years to the day of the f. b. i's arrest of activist angela davis. cold, a dangerous terrorist by president nixon. you can watch our interview on going underground on youtube channel until then keep in touch with our social media and let us know whether you think the chinese economic model good fight inequality nato nations. ah ah ah

ah, it's so but i think the most basic, but i see you back please go. he did. who bought? i bought a dial tomorrow, a couple of reviews on your quote, but i know from politicians to athletes and movies. does the musicals, does it seems every big name in the world has been here this year? hope of miss you can pick out a budget when you get the cool thing with give me a glover new sport. but she said basil makes dreams come true that every one who

falls in love with and luke lashawn top stores for this our live on our t claims priests should not report sex crimes against children if they are revealed during confession sees of friendship, bishops summoned by the interior minister doughty, we speak to a victim of child sexual abuse by the clergy. old woman, this child who trauma is engraved in my memory. very precise details. one can not commit crimes and simply say, i am ashamed of the crimes a half committed, domestic terrorists, parents in the u. s. face a probe off to speaking out on critical race.