all this, i'm all coming up in today's going on the ground, but 1st it's a century since albert einstein was awarded the nobel prize for physics for work on the photo electric effect. this year it has been awarded to wanna discoveries that may help save the human species from climate change. joining me now from hamburg in germany is one of the 2021. no well prize win as professor class hassle than i thank you so much for coming on. congratulations. i go to us. i'm not going to have how you heard about it. i know everyone always asked that question, although people probably want to know. but why is it, as is so often asked of you, we can't predict whether it will rain in 10 days time. but we can predict that the climate change may annihilate the human species. well, the problem is that it's not just national religion, which is difficult to predict, but also impact on to distinguish which remains the impact, the national resolve of very difficult. and it's very difficult to get across on the political domain for problems that are true. 5102030 years

are used to responding to them or no one or 2 years. so there's no response to climate change or something which you're pretty sure you're not, you're still in my in true treat, operate, you know, boys and girls today they graduate. they used to cast tick modeling to model gambling in the city of london. your most famous papers, some of them because there's so many involve using stochastic modeling. what about how we have such little data on climate temperature? at least when you were writing your very famous papers, we didn't have, i score data. how are you able to model data, which was just a tiny fraction of the age when i think we had some idea of the past, we had good pos data from the predator measured data. so,

so when you want national come, everybody was. and the question whether can you separate the national trauma variables here that we knew about from the man's impact, which is on a short time change or time scale and to separate these 2 long time changes. and the short time changes to my impact was these are challenges we out of that time as well. so we had to so somebody uses them. so i 0 now demonstrated quite clearly that mine is changing time and we have to do something about it. i'll get on to the opponents during your search in a moment, but one, i think that may surprise people who don't know as much as you do. it is a euro use of quantum field theory. i thought quantum mechanics is all about tiny little things and you're using something about if you're ethical about bad about oceans, which a huge things wanted to be a famous

a physicist. i'm you are now the device take for a physics. are that unfortunately i went to do common research. i'm fine, i'm assigned to a problem and i understood i realize are some of the techniques that are good in physics are going to prior to climate change. and i guess this had some impact. yeah. a kid from that on 2nd, dallas too complicated to be able to explain in a short interview when you are doing your famous papers in the sixty's. it wasn't a long afterwards. i mean, because you need to the 70, the cia wrote that man made climate change in the paper. in 9074 is called a study of climate loading logical research. as it pertains to intelligence problems. they said, climate told, just don't recognize what the cia knows that it began in 1960,

we're predicting in the era of drought famine in political unrest. how did the cia have the data? it was using your work to to know what you knew about my mate, climate change. i didn't have matching to act or during hours or acting or in that direction. i shifted by channel such as a climate scientist, i understand the physics of coverage. i was very happy that i had many co workers that were very good in tracking with the public. and it's warming the public that we have a problem. so i can stand back to britain and do much science. so i was already why fortunate is ours embedded in a good side of the community. that was also very good at communicating with the public. so i could sit back and do my science. i'm the net interaction, little public, we're taking a lot of my car to your site. would you go to you hunter? i'm right now because, you know,

we talk on this program about how we don't really know the impact on climate change of the u. s. military budget, the pentagon budget, it's all secret. how much are they contribute to fossil fuel emissions? your work on the 1991, a good persian gulf war. they were trying to work out when the burning of the co 8 oil fields in terms of fluid dynamics. what impacted that have on carbon dioxide emissions. here is not going to pay, but not tom remove pointing out the impact to scurrying new oil sales and so forth . and just to point out that it was in interaction between the source of actions and, and climate, british almost already of all very much in network. i wrote, i wrote a claims in wasn't actually significant, as it turned out in, in that paper at all. um, i suppose a while you've been doing all of this work, you know that there been fossil fuel companies, rubbishing your research,

and the research of others. what was it like doing all that work on stochastic modeling, knowing that it's called a global climate coalition, sponsored by exxon chevron and others, were trying to make out the your research was nonsense. one, always some interested to companies that want to try to deny the fact that we're having time at change, but i never had a strong impact on the, on the publish those if you are interested to people, they're trying to support an idea. but it never came really across in the public. so i didn't really have any problem argue with them. yeah. but apparently they had some scientists who would appear on t v. 's and things like no, no this is wrong. they don't have the data. it's not true. yeah, it's good, know you took them seriously. i mean, the media has all they on the so the problem monday, interact interacting with scientists for so it's, it's very difficult to influence the property because,

or how to try to deny the fact that we have a problem with interest groups and trying to pretend that we don't have a problem with that. i don't really get across in the topic. well, as you say, i mean it's up. some people would say it's belatedly, they understand it. how do you think politicians are responding to the implications of your such today? and especially i have called 26. i think the politicians have difficulty responding to long term problems. there are several decades they used to respond to in prominence from one you to the next to maybe the next election. but the idea that they have longer term problem to, to attack and respond to this way difficult to get across the partition. so it's much easier to speech in the public ashleen until actually partition because they're more used to trying to get a more short term response for the public for it. all they're doing. i'm the great,

great a different is bringing it on. so are problems that we have across to the public, but also somebody trying to do this but assist over it. so very difficult. and can we, is your work to quantify that? well, in terms of evaluation, the impact of attempts my governments to limit climate change. i think bruce cc sean point out, that we had a problem and they should be doing something. we didn't really analyze too much what was being done. and because ashley was not very much ben gunn, regardless or simply as a saying before, they're not used to looking or responding to long term problems. and although they occasionally you find articles, newspapers in so forth. this is really no ongoing long term discussion in the reading will remain on these really don't. and i was, i think where the, the 1st time that is, came up into more general discussion in the policies,

i think, to down people that they found ways of expressing things that with all the scientists when i would bring across to, well, so we're very happy that the younger generation you realize, member problem and not being very effective in trying to get this or bring news across to the public. and dad, as you know, many of them are not happy with the 1.5 degrees centigrade level in the paris agreement. i mean, what d i'm, i don't know whether i can just plug a number into one of your formula to work out whether the species will be okay or not. is what do you think of the paras climate agreement in the 1.5 degrees centigrade? yeah, we do have such and such conferences and res hospice is 1.5 centigrade enough in terms of a target. i think that's not the right question. i mean it's, it's the order of magnitude. you're talking about between 1.21.8 degrees as i forth with this 1.5. it's just an os around number is the order of magnitude. yeah. we

have to strive for and the impact that we'll have on the calling there's a whole good to get some idea of how this interaction between this goals are common change and the actual the economic policies that we pursue. i think the issue kind of feeling too understanding of the relation between a short so critical decisions and, and, and investments and so forth. and the long term impact on the in the additions is something which i think we're not, we're to bring a truck or to cross properly to the new demand yet. so i swap one of the problems that we have is assigned is to try to get people's aware of it almost impacts what they're doing on the common change or timescale. obviously, countries like china would say they've always been looking at it long term,

but i suppose i've got to ask you really since it is a century since einstein got the same award. what did you think? oh, wow. did you find out that he won the nobel prize along with your, to co in a speaker? man, i'll be in georgia for easy. i think i was sitting at the radio and then somebody called and said, you know, i saw something. i said no joke. they're really good. no, well that's not something to happen to chime overnight and i wasn't expecting it. i mean, are you talking about the importance of a lot, many other people. so sometimes that are not news to ashley response to the meeting and a public trip to this problem. and i was quite surprised with what does happen and do you think your next, i don't know what you're working on right now. maybe on trying to find out whether it'll rain in 10 days time. was that just too complicated a problem?

nasa too complicated problem. so now on my basic idea was also to, to evolution the basic idea of physics and have a new way of looking physics and particles and so forth. but nobody takes me very seriously unfortunately. so i have to work except that as well as you said, the young people of this world do your hopes for cop 26. will you be monitoring it or will you be working on equations and the cot? 26 on marshall. i was already you all very much and i think mel last this conference in glasgow here about where world leaders are supposed to come in and use your equations and turn them into policy. well, i'm very happy when people use my equations and use my arguments, but i am not really a partial type. so i unlocked, i don't want a lot ways to bring it across to the, to the, to your products. you majors are very happy with other people. i years old, brick the asians up and,

and try to make it more complex proposal and thank you. thank you. i'm thank you. congratulations. after the break leveling up or record levels of inequality up to the u. k. prime minister announces welfare cuts to 6000000 made reveal dodgy dealings and corruption allegations against the global elite. does this represent another crisis for capitalism? all of them all coming up about 2 of going underground. ah, ah.

join me every thursday on the alex salmon? sure. i'll be speaking to guess what the world of politics spoke. business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah, welcome back. the estimated corona virus debts jewel in the usa is equivalent to more than 3000000 killed in china is a proportion of population comparable to the death toll in mouse cultural revolution. will you k p. morris johnson slashing welfare for the poorest this week

named checked italian economist and arguable because for fascism feel free to parade to said democracy was an illusion. joining me now from new york is economist professor franco miller of it banker, thanks so much for coming on the parade to british prime to see it was talking about how should that be a good good thing that he was talking about for a jo. i know you've been writing about how inequality is taking center stage in your liberal economies from washington to well, to, to european capitals. well, you actually say very, very excited, but right. i have to say actually comes for me at a very interesting time because i was just writing a job or is of course a controversial figure politically. because sam considered him as a precursor to fascism which i don't think it is true. actually, an operator died in 23. exactly when it came to power. he became a point,

it was so they need to be a senator, but basically he died within a couple of months and really was never involved. but he was a conservative economist. he believed that growth is crucial, that actually poverty cannot be eliminated except for growth. and i mean, ironically, brenda was also a person who was the 1st started interpersonally i mean equality using the fiscal date. so he was actually nichol. i missed the started inequality by the law, but believe that you could not change. so apt that boris johnson would arguably use such a figure. conservative thinker off to rule, but on some might say that he was a civil take is the causing a 20 pound payment to the 6000000 poorest people in this country that some say will lead to 800000 people falling below the poverty line. i think you've been writing recently that the well that the me ologist, obviously a blame for coven deaths,

for not reacting properly. i mean, that's that field. the politicians and the leads don't seem to be accountable for rising inequality. i do think that we were all like, all profession someplace the effects of 1st of all, i mean, you mentioned it to me ologist. they were as we know wrong, you know, from the beginning to the end. and actually the virus has been playing games with that because whenever they think, actually they have been in control, things would change the protection of the vaccines where it has been amazingly fast . so that was really, really right on, on the other hand, also for the economy is very difficult barrier, because when we do projections, we do projections, assuming that basically we are in control of the virus. but then we have seen these projections are changed over the last 2 years and almost depending on what

countries were doing well, you know, in the beginning, then in the middle of then now, and this countries have often switch repeatedly wrong. i mean, you are in the world bank, so you know how wrong the world bank was, were developing countries as regards growth and macro economic policy. you can't blame them too much. you know, the point where projections is all, if they don't take them very seriously, because their projections are always projections based on the current knowledge. and the assumption that there will be no dramatic a significant changes in the field. and we know actually dramatic and really unexpected and need your graphic events happen. and when they happen to like to call the to happen all the projection start off. so if you were to look at the, i'm there for the world bank projections, that $1019.00, it's not surprising that actually they were off they, they couldn't do it. the problem with projections, if really, if you're wrong and nothing spectacular,

that's got been over that period and i think you're no problem. well, babs, most dramatic from you has been something you said about china. i mean, china is obviously targeting inequality we had from a guest only the other day. who is saying say, the shortages of certain types of energy is government ordained because of the climate catastrophe. the government is really targeting now the inequality that is increased as the chinese miracle, as continued. why compare the many deaths of miles cultural revolution with the new liberal responds to cove it in say the united states. well, you know, we can compare because that from one they ran to another event with all the sort of a different, say a carefully, you know, the us that still is enormous and absolutely it was something that nobody could have expected. i mention very often the study of it 19 by the johns hopkins

university and the economist intelligence unit, that actually would the u. s. s. number one, there are some preparedness to face the economist. i mean, let's face it. we were going to see our youtube video, but the economists historically, even the intelligence unit, and we knew that they don't have a universal health care system. that health system is completely inefficient because it spends the us taxpayer spends way more on health care. and they don't get the provision, show me what to expect us to be hit was my bad demick. obviously. you know, it seems obvious, but it didn't seem obvious that and we, i think we are definitely surprised by the extent when it was recent compared to the u. s. b during the civil war and vietnam war and so on. so you can, as a said, you can compare it to the culture of the lucian, which of course, that adjustment for the population size. and if you would go,

there is no doubt about that. and i think lots of would be a bit about that. especially the fact that the crisis is not over. so we are really at some point we don't know if we have 2 thirds of the best all or maybe 60 percent or maybe one. so it is absolutely still or no, but it is a huge number because in the propaganda context of this, if china has done loads of crony contracts from profit driven corporations acted as new liberal, you states, you think the subsequent death, dual china in western media would be accused of genesis. well, you know, if i mean the corresponding number for china, you know, $700000.00 into us would have been like $3000000.00. so i believe that kind of a $3000000.00 would have been mentioned very many times in as fascinating the, you do say the post pandemic, liberal labor market look set to be creating

a globalization that will now hit the middle class as we've seen. how well, i mean it has the bailout, the middle class is to an extent, but historically, since the seventy's neoliberalism, is it obviously blue color working close as well? i think actually globalization, a playstation that we can become aware of very much is the ability to work remotely. which means that physically obviously don't have to be at your place at work. now that means greater possibilities for people in the less developed countries replace people in the rich and base because you know, a certain number of jobs and then the silly from you know, islander allows and not i want to know new york and the new employees are cheaper, i think they would take the positions of dose from the reach bank. so i would actually see those things here. all you want to which is actually good or less

developed from the labor market there. but the negative one for the rich just because it further substituted a middle class that jobs are labor from, from the country. and i would. ready like to go, i mean, what is the state of the bubble for economist at the moment? i mean, i noticed the pandora papers released this month. no us politicians were in it. and i know that you've commented on the fact that it is. it is axiomatic amongst weston journalists, say they didn't nation journalists that capitalism and democracy are associated and you cause some doubt on that. well, i think that actually, historically, that was not true. so you know, one doesn't need to spend too much time because you can kind of place for the last century spent. most of them, i mean, i will start, i mean, not obvious. example of fascist and it's only been in south america. even take

a united states that was actually a slave owning entry. i'm to 1865 and it was and, and even you can take britain which kind of very limited french it written with. the french is 8 percent of the population that democracy today. so, you know, don't even later in the us for votes for people who are out, but they're going to be late in 65 and then a 65 and movement for the right to vote. but so actually if you just look at a number of country years different and democracy, i think that number is relatively small. it's probably like 20 percent. now of course, corporations that fund up all additions. all talking about climate change,

just as the activists are, all of a sudden, obviously money to be made as has been described by the green new deal additions as well as those on the right. do you think it's possible for the growth, obsessed, new liberal nations at all cost to fully comprehend and to enact policies that will stop the annihilation of the human species? you know that i have a little bit of a different opinion there because i very much for growth because i believe you're only solution the world geography is really wrong. now the issue is in rich countries, is that politically it's part like impossible to implement policy. it would seriously deal with climate change in the and the example that i really like it was which i think is i think it is not, not on the didn't always a huge producer of thought. i did this now increasing exploration in the arctic.

and on top of that, that policy supported by majority of the population of norway. and it normally is a country that is quite aware of climate change and is the richest country in the world. so the question that they asked myself, and actually i wrote about that. i said, you know, many people are fighting for, i mean, guess i'm a change. if you're going to convince people in the rich, no way to reduce their income in production. that's how are you going to come in brazil or rag or nigeria with incomes, which are one 5th of not. so i think this is the fundamental political issue that they really don't know how to deal with. i just finally is 27 years today. john nash won the nobel prize for his work on game theory. why do you think a game theory is useful in the current crisis? as, as on the one side we hear of a get on, on the other we hear of optimistic signs that washington bay gene are obsessed by

inequality. well, i think it is very, i mean us will actually as you know, it was actually invented into 19 for a long time for norman and morgan stanley and sort of the founders. and it gives me useful in economics, in many sense, when, particularly when you have limited competition so that each monopoly or a monopoly oracle is technically we is actually taking into account the action of the other side. and it was quite a lot of a political science. it's precisely in the, on the topics that you mentioned when you had 2 superpowers in the past. it started b u. s. for us and china. so it does, i think actually that's kind of applications are very mundane or didn't real life to actually survival. the species promote the brand going on of it. thank you. thank you very much. it was a pleasure talking to you that's over the show will be back on wednesday. 51. yes. the day of the f. b. i's arrest of activist angela davis. cold,

a dangerous terrorist by president nixon. you can watch our interview on going underground. allow you to our channel until then keep in touch with our social media. let us know whether you think the chinese economic model, good fight inequality. nato nation. ah ah ah .

ah, these people learn from their own experience, how vulnerable of business is to the bank. so he pushed my business over, the age, pushes me right to the edge, bankruptcy. now i realize we were good. this isn't just the back that may be involved in this is the concept. see, thumbs is, is the lawyers. these people have got you want other stories at a walk, can a whistle blower tell people's marriages have broken up, lost their family homes, and it is spectacularly devastating for people's lives. we have committed suicide, but left behind, nor the explicitly state. it was the constant intimidation and billing by bank officers that late them too. i took the spear, it's obscene, these people up,

nor saw with headlining this our claims, the priests should not report sex crimes against children. if there revealed during confession at the top, french bishops summoned by the interior minister, we speak to a victim of child sex abuse by the clergy. for the full of his childhood trauma is engraved in minority, very free zine logs. one cannot commit crimes and simply say, i'm ashamed of the crimes and having to help for g o for the mystic terrorists. parents in the u. s. have branded that and faced a probe off to criticizing critical race theory in schools. we hear from our mother about it later in the program.