as well as the united nations, the i m f, the world bank met to discuss the situation in afghanistan ahead of moscow summit next wednesday. one man who has seen every site of this crisis and has been intimately involved in negotiations with the international community and the taliban, is afghanistan's former finance minister, omar zacko. while he was a key player in the, in traffic and dialog before the full of cobble and his previously served as the countries ambassador to pakistan, he joins me now from his stumble. thank you so much ambassador coming on the show. i mean, i should just start the scores were killed on friday attributed to the isis k mosque bomb, british and american citizens have been told by their governments not to go near the serena hotel and cobble a favorite of experts. amidst all this, what have you thought about the g 20 a virtual conference in rome? well, the only thing i can expect and hope to see is a firm commitment for humanitarian assistance. to understand

the human genome situation, no doubt is diet, assigning, there are deeper economic crises right now. it certainly is not just a minute here. it's also the responsibility of the international community to respond to the current economic in humanity and difficulties in our country. well, you gave, i mean, as far as chances on holiday monday, i don't know whether he's working from there. they say, is the european union, apparently all together, $1000000000.00 euros, a tiny, tiny fraction of the cost of the war to nato countries, which runs into trillions, variously variously quoted. have you been in conversations with joe biden about afghanistan? what, what does he like? what is his attitude to afghanistan? i've known him, i've been in conversation with him since 2007,

in many, many meetings with former president and as well as a former president of me. yes. when he stays to be a lot of does it stand? i would say in different and way, i mean, he often says, how is a son served in the u. s. military, we know thousands, tens of thousands killed or injured on the american. so i learned hundreds of thousands of afghans was a really indifferent. well, even if you heard him back in 2008, 910, his heart was not in the u. s. effort in afghanistan. he was not a very supportive and he stated it even back then. and that the level of engagement of the u. s. a son was not something that he was and off,

and when he began the president, he showed that amid unfair because that meant, as we now know, he just didn't support the surge. that obama was supporting. he said that obama that we're using a young president does me when they did that surgeon 2010. i mean the read out from the meeting of this to have canister meeting in the past 24 hours. he says from the biden statement, the leaders discuss critical need to maintain laser focus, enduring counter terrorism efforts, including against threats or isis, isis k wouldn't. who is who funds isis k? is it related to the isis, the britain in the united states de facto supported against us, out of syria? or is it not at all connected with that isis? and if not, why is it called isis? and then k, we don't really know, be honest with you, even when i was strong in body nissan,

is that in my own home province? i'm. it wasn't mysterious for the prior to that a lot, number of the ice kill the pakistani and members. and i did turn in to be nice in surgery, no doubt, after the fall of the dropping of the mother all bomb the soonest on it rigid publicity give it to die. he attracted. 7 certainly, maybe more committed members from regional countries including pakistan and iran, and either a lethal force. and actually donald trump catalyzed i just k. yeah. but what i'm saying is it, it doesn't mean a mysterious and particularly the funding of it because in which they operate in the people who interacted with them. in fact,

they came to the outskirts of my village and i personally got involved in defending my village by supporting our villages and not to allow them to enter our village. there were only 5 kilometers from my village and the rest of the ability taken over by them. last month i went to my mom's grave, which was the mileage by the ice case. i've been personally affected by, but still it remains a mystery that's. that's unbelievable. given that is the 1st name check in president biden's g 20 summit. read a statement, goes on to say we want to provide humanitarian assistance directly to the african people through independent international organizations. promote fundamental human rights. i mean there are independent organ. i stations are they, i mean, we heard from some people that the entire war, the purpose of it was to recycle us treasury money through the military, industrial complex,

benefiting weapons companies back in home with her in britain of the united states . do you trust to africans trust any motive from the powers that invaded your country? really a, i'm in dire need. you don't really go for a lot of your origins in the pope was in the more the welcome a double corruption un does it. you know, the gun, the government, you've been critical of that. i mean, you know, that just end up. i mean, i know people are now discrediting the story in the past few hours about after i've gone to a $169000000.00 in cash out the country, presumably you don't agree with that and you don't know about that. how much of the humanitarian aid gets stolen? it's not just even if you take the site, it was when you want to trickle down to the people that tell the admin cost is quite high. my one expectation will be $1000000000.00 committed planets on

may. if there is no good afternoon, bob, still 50 percent of this will give to the people so another 50 percent minimum. well good admin cost in the last that i did by half in that in the 90. we'll get that. but we'll still welcome that because, i mean, yeah, yeah, let's move on to line realizes that we, you know, we had, we had the brother of the so called lion of penn chair who, who died 2 days before 911. and while he masoud on the program, he's been saying, i don't know where the laugh or cry of the saying britain now can play a very constructive role, even replace the u. s. in afghanistan, he wants intelligence agencies there. what did you make of those initial reports after the fall of gobble that the valley was going to be the start of a new resistance backed by the cia and who knows in my 6 to overthrow the taliban?

i certainly do not support that. we certainly would want a. ready to go through a political settlement in negotiation engagement. we've had enough of these games in the past 4 years and they have led to nothing. and then now my naming or calling it and i don't believe in what i want, i believe in engagement. and that's why i'm based in talk all i'm committed to the meaning and i'm not on my own political independent thinking. i challenge to tell about a certain dollar bonds policy, particularly do it on women and women and also political inclusivity. but i do that in public and me in the, the situation and that was not enough for me to be operating in stating that position. and if it's good enough for me, it would be good enough for a student that is the one i did meet them when they were getting out of cobbling

islam about when i was returning of the part of i will. so i did talk to them. i told them and encourage them that we should actually engage with the taliban and try to return to car and take a position, a political position and dad. it's more the politics that believe in because we have been tried. i've failed and they're going to feel again, i don't know. in fact there's no one's really talking about that now. anyway, to presume you're going back to come, we get the taliban on this show. but of course, as you know very well, they're very diplomatic. the way they speak, even about the fact that women's education of polling things, we're hearing about girls schools beyond the age of 12. what id like to negotiate and talk things out with the taliban? i mean, do they think britain in the united states has a big role in helping f. again, a start, i mean, britain is currently sending a warship to neighbors of afghanistan, china, and threatening iran,

just like joe biden has been threatening. of course, iran as a border as well with africans done. well, i know that without international recognition, particularly by with they're going to be no financial that always the african budget depend on or developmental work normally is another story. so then they're not going to see that, but why you want that? i mean, you presume that's what you're going to be saying and cobble, but we know what happens to developing countries or take i m f and world bank money currently, currently frozen, it has to be said, why are you seeking money from the very countries that ordinary african seas is committing atrocities. i mean, before you get the money, shouldn't you be investigating things like the atrocity on 18th of october 2012. the lawyer bag massacre of children by british troops as a ledge, whether may be seen sunday times countless atrocities, as ordinary africans think about rather than you technocratic about income. but go

say that to somebody who for tonight does not have the money to feed their children . so what do you say is absolutely important, as might happen? it should happen by the same time. what's urgent? are you feeling that people react on population? and if it's from the same people who you mention, i've done this estella. again, if you see people we were welcoming will encourage but not only sort of encourage you that, that you want it, but as a responsibility. because the, the situation in which i understand is in the afternoon people, it is a situation that is brought down and these people largely by the international community we've been, we've been, we've been of the international games unfortunately, we've been played with. and that's where we are today, and that certainly is a more responsibility of the international community to do. he owns what it is to

help us feed are people, even though, of course, many of the accurate or just very finally briefly. there's another summit next wednesday. moscow, should you not me just even even though as you say there are people not being able to eat tonight, a 1000000 children at risk of starvation isn't it time now to seek money? humanitarian aid from china, russia, iran, which was so many african refugees and turn your back on the i m f world bank froze money, which is giving you nothing right now when we don't expect the nation from china or russia already run, leave even be sort of a small percentage of the broader the international assistant and understand need ended up. my son in china certainly has played support in last years is also explicit readiness. but again,

money counseling amount, they're willing to be pounds at house, but it's not going to be even close to $2.00 significant again. well, thank you. thank you. after the break it is you came by minister mars johnson holiday. and marcia leveling up to catastrophe as communist china has cop 15, the world's largest by diversity conference. in a decade. we ask ecological, economist, him jackson, who sustainability can only exist. post capitalism told us a more coming up about to have going on the ground. a beautiful job ocean was time on what it was, a middle august or still with any initial local noise in the middle for a fresh which don't don't love. would you like that?

that would because if that's something you would get them with the cool got that's 90 percent of your properties was for what fin the but on with a few years. right. what that to the, what like you with work with nice seems to them of them when he's got the west, when like, holding. so want to show what the port to lip teach them from the, from the news, or kind of what the stuff that the same i was given your cisco web logo. slave to bring me as i will continue to 11 little scared, little squiggly shampoo chip it, but are one why do you think that us them i mean on i besides and we still do what happened to

the idea of tolerance and our politics. conservative. see their world being up ended. liberals view conservatives with contempt. of course, the media only makes things worse. we all lost hope and compromise in peaceful coexistence. welcome back. in the last 48 hours, she didn't bring vladimir putin, prince charles and others have been speaking of this week's world leaders. cop 15 summit by diversity given little publicity by nature nation media with a 5th of the world's countries. now facing ecosystems collapse. is it time to look again at the impact of new liberal growth? what with the u. s. a. c o. 2 emissions per capita, double those of china? earlier i was joined outside of the studio by ecological economist, him, jackson, author of post grove, life after capitalism. tim, welcome to going underground. before we get to what your book says about corona virus and the happiness i, i've got to ask you because g d p numbers come out every couple of weeks. what have

journalists got upside down when? i think every single journalist in this country lead loan around the world according to your book, gets it completely wrong when covering the statistic. you with success with gdc number a quarter after quarter. is it going up? is it going down? what's it doing? but actually, and this is where my book actually starts, is that we've known since robert kennedy, at least in 1968, the g d p is just not a very good number. you know, it's kind of measures lots of things which are actually causing damage to, to us and to society, into the planet. and it leaves out a whole bunch of things that actually really matter to us like our relationships and our friendships and, and the work that we put in to look after our kids and so on and so forth. and so there is, is actually quite a, you know, now there's, there's an emerging consensus that is just the wrong thing to, to, to be measuring. and robert kennedy back in the day actually said, you know,

it measures everything. sure. except that which makes life worthwhile, which is a kind of quite profound criticism of a number that everybody's chasing all the time. well, we're getting a g p and why it's not the best measure happens in a 2nd. but even if you were to believe g d p was a good measure of human happiness, you say you've lost count of the number of attempts to get the average growth before the 28. what the chinese goal, the western economic crisis. even before then, it misses the point easily. i mean, i think, you know, one of one of the reasons why this critique of to the g d p is now being taken a little bit more seriously. is because it's become the gross that we've been looking for in that number has begun to go away. and as, as you say, you know, lot, so he says something different. it's been going away since financial crisis. and my analysis actually says something different. it's been going away since about the

mid 19 sixty's for the advanced economy is the growth rates been slowing down? and actually before the pandemic was slowing down almost to point to 0 in a country like the, the, the, and, and yet we go on believing that our future should progress. our sense of prosperity depends on making that number bigger and bigger all the time. and in trying to make it bigger, while it's resolutely be going down, we've created damage in society. that's one of the sort of foundational arguments that i've, that i've been drawing out. of course i got to ask you, why then, a journalist, partaking of this myth and promoting the myth in the 1st place, is there some sort of strong lobby to prevent us understanding the significance of what g d p really refers to. and there are lots of reasons why, i mean, i think the most persuasive one and it's a really important one in a way we believe. and under certain circumstances we can't have jobs for everyone

unless we have a growing economy. and you know, there's a kind of a reason behind that which is that we as come, this country's kind of obsess about labor productivity growth about doing things more and more efficiently with people and different things kind of more efficiently each year. so each sage worker can produce more in each hour of work next year and the year after year after that, it just goes going, getting more and more efficient. unless we produce more economy, then that means people are going to be for the job. so that pursuits of productivity actually either you either have to counter that by growing the whole economy, or you have to look at a way of employing less people having sure to working hours. or perhaps even this is a radical suggestion. slowing down the with alex and instead of everybody having to work harder and harder, maybe we work better and better,

we focus on quality rather than quantity of output. and in fact, our working lives can be transformed by thinking differently about gross question. that's one of the fascinating things is that when you start to unravel, what's wrong with an economy that's driven by grace in the g p. u, you inevitably have to delve down into the fabric of society and figure out where we got those concepts wrong. why, for example, we ask our nurse to see more and more patience, why teachers have to teach bigger and bigger classes, why everything is forced into this prism of economic growth and, and, and you also open up the possibility of saying actually wouldn't life be a little bit better a little bit easier if we were able to work a little bit more slowly with quality rather than quantity as our guide. but i suppose, you know,

the class war that is referred to in this book. and i mean people who criticize g d p for decades in my life i'm divorce and death is good for the g d. p. numbers measuring, i happened, it hasn't just been a passive acceptance. that as you say it more efficiency gains mean happen is, this is all good for us. as we look at a passive acceptance in western european countries, and that's the way it is. it's just not gonna change as, as we started by say it's on the news g, d, b is up. that's good for us. yeah, i mean there has been a passive acceptance. i think that's, that's true. i'm not someone who believes that things can change. i think they change constantly and they change the progress of ideas to the progress of our understanding by becoming better societies by carrying more about each other by concentrating on the things that really matter. and, and the problem with the g d p is it's become a kind of own stultified man. that does more is better. and that has

begun to undermine the things that matter and it undermines it, not just, you know, in the kind of obvious ways that we're measuring the wrong things in our lives. but it undermines it by making our lives more crowded, more busy, more acquisitive. and that in its turn, begins to erode the values that connects us to each other. and that i think is in my principal problem with it in a way, my principal problem with the way that we organize a society around grace is it, it, it begins to create a, a less rich society in terms of social connection in terms of meaning in terms of purpose in terms of care, as it, as it goes along, were patiently growing and growing and using up resources from the planet and undermining human relationships. and i think that's tragic. i think it's the point to which we have to say ideas don't go on forever. they ought to change and that changing all the time. and we need to think about how that change occurs and what

we want for society and ignoring for a moment the vast proportion of, if you might be watching right now, who happened to be on the dollar a day, you talk about diet, mental health, these issues are crucially intertwined with the g d. p growth. yeah, i mean national, that's a really important points in the way we shouldn't. we don't, and we, and i don't in the book, ignore those people for whom growth really, really masses. but the reality is that even as we have in as 2000000000 people, almost still undernourished, we have more people dying from obesity and the disease is of over nutrition than we do dying from malnutrition. and that's an extraordinary state of affairs that while there are people still desperately poor, who do need that gross income in order to have decent lives. we in the western world, in particular, still pursuing a model which suggests that we have more and more. and even as you suggested in

something as basic as food and diet, more and more does not lead to a person that actually leads to a less healthy person. and that, and that house risk has cost to society to individuals. and indeed, ultimately to the economy that are not being recognized in the existing model. so. so it's, it's in a way it's, it's more to me and it's a fundamental principle in the book is more to me about thinking about where the balance lies between having more and having less and suggesting that in the western model. in particular, we've got that balance roll for food companies, want to say, we have to do that for competition. and i know you talk about different terms, readings of darwin. and what about boris johnson then saying it's greed and capitalism with his growth model that allowed britain to be vaccinated far more

than any other country? why do you think it's extraordinary? i mean, this is an extraordinary thing for an intelligent person to say, and i assume that verse is at least slightly intelligent because otherwise he wouldn't become prime minister. and, and he writes, you know, really as an intelligent person with the richness of ideas and an understanding of history. and so i find it extraordinary that he would come out with something like that. and particularly because, you know, it's a miss really, that's been busted for, for so long the, the idea of adam smith, invisible and, you know, through everybody, selfishness we get to the social progress of society. i mean, it's something that's been said for 250 years. so boris didn't just come up with it . but i failed to see entirely how he could look at what happened in the crisis and say that we saved ourselves 3 grade. i just don't believe that happen through the pandemic. we saved ourselves to the hard work and dedication of front line workers who have been neglected for decades. these conditions of work were precarious,

and yet who still turned out day to day to provide food to care for patients to care for the dying that had nothing to me to do with great. and of course you can are. if you create this greedy culture of capitalism, then you're going to get lots of people competing to make a vaccine to solve the current of virus crisis. the reality is actually the astrazeneca, from the beginning said, we're not going to make profits from this. we're actually going to do this because we believe it's the right thing to do. it was science, it was integrity, but it's good. it's good. it's good p r a, which is good enough for this country. i just finally have you before anyone gives up hope, just very briefly on, on what the corona, virus bend, because taught us about the way capitalism can change. journal sixpence. what it definitely is, is that there are points in time points in our lives points in society. where

health actually is the priority rather than wealth. then it's almost as simple as that, that, that's what we had to decide when the pandemic struck. that's what we had to focus on. and that's the, one of the most fundamental learnings i think from, from the pandemic is that sometimes it's help that matters and not wealth. but we also learn how much we had neglected. the people who protected us the people who actually allowed us to, to pursue, helps to achieve how to protect health, and how much as if you like corns in a game in which gross was the ultimate master. they had been left to one side for way too long, and yet they turned out to be the most important people in society. so in a sense, as we learned those lessons, we did do something to protect them. we did do something more to value them. we did create conditions which were not about gross, but we're actually about protection of health, the protection of frontline workers. and what i want from, as we recover from this tragic year also,

is that we remember those lessons and we think more clearly and more cleverly actually about how to protect those frontline services that really matter in terms of creating a genuine prosperity that is based around the health of, of the individual of the health of the community, the health of society, and indeed the health of the planet professor, tim jackson. thank you. ledger tim jackson speaking to me earlier on that. so for the show will be back on saturday, 59 years to the day of the start to the cuban missile crisis and 57 years in china responded to the u. s. u k. war that killed 20 percent of korea's population by designating its 1st nuclear weapon until then keep in touch by social media and let us know if you think capitalism and fighting climate change are compatible. ah.

mass guy, there's financial survival guide. liquid assets are those that you can convert into cash quite easily. but keep in mind, no as that the main to inflation better watch guys report when i see black america. i seen part of my so i was growing up like america spoke to me when, why destroyed it did not have to say black lives matter is a movement we are importing from america. know nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where white lives mattered and i was not was like ms. newman and i wasn't new from black america. i learned how to speak back to whitefish aboriginal people here more every day. we are out wanted system. now with the police were out war with she states,

i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then there, although shallow friends in daycare headlining this, our president, putin says, europe's own miscalculations resulted at it, or the energy crisis confronting head on the narrative. the brushes weapon icing or intentionally withholding gas. federal judges of america is the 2nd largest deadline to hold off on its mandatory coven vaccine order of the legal action from some of its, of 67000 workers. also this our several people are injured as classes erupt instead majority areas of kosovo with fear that the violence may grow into a wider regional conflict.