to hand, we have to wait for the big inquiry. that's what the government is saying. what's the point of this report? well, i think it's very important because basically the government has tried to kick the inquiry into the long grass and is when i was hoping really this, it would have faded from memory by the time they get round to looking at it sometime next year. but this is a devastating report, and i think actually it's a credit to hunt this. he was chair of this because he, as you say, he did preside over a failure to act on the, in the exercise in 2016, which identified a lot of weaknesses. and it doesn't really avoid that. he brings out the major points about the lack of preparedness and the failure of non pharmaceutical interventions. you know, the lack of a lack of testing capacity and the impact on social

care with tens of thousands of deaths in the cur homes because of patients being discharged occur homes from hospitals carrying the virus and the impact on, on specific communities and including the appalling facts about what happened with people with learning disabilities being given, do not resist the tape notices when they were in hospital and you know, grossly unethical. and the only positive note in the reports is about the vaccine program. and i think actually they do pull their punches on that because at the present time, the u. k is falling behind the european union countries and vaccination, particularly the teenagers. and we do have a death rate still at the rate of a $130.00 a day about a 1000 to wait and which is almost the highest in the developed world. as

ladies and in a dandy the whole, the death per capita rate in this country is one of the worst in the world. i'm so, i mean on, on your personal experience and reminders how you made it clear in march of 2020, that the government was making the failures outlined in this latest report an hour . in fact, i mean anyone normally watching a main bbc discussion program, fiona bruce, the presenter, appeared to try and shut you up on television in that headline said things like run t left wing public health, the man talks rubbish. that kind of thing. where what do you think in retrospect about the fact or you were treated on say that maybe see about when you tried to raise the issues actually now coming on the report in the past few days, i was treated calling lee. i haven't had an apology. stephen barclay, the government ministers at the treasury, it was on the sky,

refused to apologize. in that question. time program, i've time base afterwards he had over 20 minutes of the speaking time. i had about 14, but sienna bruce kept shutting me up and bringing him back in. and i feel completely vindicated to having been an inconvenient witness at that time. and all is the detail in this record this week is to be found, or most rich to be found in my book, blinded by corona, which detailed the 1st 6 months of the handling of the pandemic by the british government. now, as you know, the government ministers, some of whom are abolishing some who aren't. and as you say, even barclay now to answer the duty of lancaster whatever that his case was, the 1st to come out of being sent out by the government to defend the government. and you had been saying that i don't know, they were looking at se, asia, they weren't looking at these things. is a group think is it incompetent? is it murder? what, what, what has been going on with those?

and you know, it is. and so show murder. oh, so many tens of thousands of people have died in the u. k, unnecessarily. because of incompetence and arrogance. not just by the government, but by the government's advisors. remember, we had an advisor deputy chief medical officer saying that am testing didn't matter in the u. k. it was only a matter of developing countries and that mask wearing would make it worse as social distance thing was not taken seriously. you know, the one meters to me says the academic advisors who said was okay to go ahead with the athletic old madrid, match it and failed. and the child knew festival, people were only at the sporting events for a short time. you and to which climate there are, where if you ever meet with our scientific,

i mean obviously using the same evidence and come to different conclusions. is that just the nature of scientific inquiry, or are these advisors allied to some people? call it a class war? this corona virus response, or they at to allied to big pharma. you mentioned jenny harris. of course, baroness dido harding marriage, a tori m p head of an h. s. improvement. now, she seems to have disappeared from view and we had tens of billions more than the justice department budget, more than the home of his budget. more than that scientific research budget spent on tracking trace. what was going on and what should happen to these people? well, as you said earlier, well, it is a so social murder, by negligence, incompetence, and arrogance. but the corruption of the issue of vast contracts, but billions of pounds to friends, to cronies, to people who've been met in the pub. and this kind of thing, you know, i'm sorry, but democracy in this country is under threat when we have

a government that behaves in this reckless fashion with, with public trust. will you say democracy when you talk about the success of the vaccine program and some people have made it clear that actually that's a legacy of socialist 1948 government in terms of any just planning that still retains a some of what it was meant to be in the, in the forty's, even after all, the privatization over the years for us, johnson said, you know, the reason why we got vaccination so good in this country and so well are, well, we've done. it's greed and capitalism. he then and that was to back benches. he then kind of drew it and then people said, it was just a joke. what, what did you make of the fact that day he joked about the reason or vaccination rated certainly in the early stages was annette. the envy of the world was green capitalism. well, you know that competitiveness that is very important when it's tempered with

social goals. seems to have been and bent in this last 12 months in different ways. and you remember late the jingoism, the nationalistic thing about being the 1st to vaccinate, even though it meant we finished up buying large quantities. alaska is anika vaccine, which turned out not to be suitable for the younger age groups. and actually we were short of defies of vaccine for quite a long time. which meant we weren't able to roll out the vaccine to the younger age groups as fast as we might have done. and so even though we got off to a head start due to the efforts of the scientists at different universities and medical schools, we've actually thrown us away and we fallen behind the other european countries. i was, i say the death rate is still running at about a 1000 a week despite the vaccination program. if you add up the people who still haven't had to vaccines and particularly the teenagers and the children where we haven't

even discussed vaccinating primary school, it's yes, there is still about 35 percent of the u. k. population. this has not had to vaccines taking a total population approach. that means the vaccine, the virus can continue to circulate. and we may yet guess another nasty variance of the virus turning up within hours of the report being released. and they just digital was tweeting that their track and trace app had gone down in some way. what would you say to any of the consultants who got some of this 37000000000 pounds a tracking trace budget watching this program? i mean is, did they just did they take the money in good faith or was it blood money is good money. i don't know whether they can look at themselves in the mirror and you know, some of these people have become, well, see beyond your wildest dreams,

almost overnight, in the last 12 months, on the back of the west pandemic for a 100 years. how they can live with themselves. i just don't know. now, you've alluded to the sewing down of vaccination among certain demographics. what are the dangers this winter? are we going to face locked out? i hope we don't have the lock down, but it's a possibility that they're most likely scenario this winter is that the national health service is going to be under massive pressure. and they will be backing up of patients into the community. sick people having to be cur home because there isn't as for them and they on a chest. and you know, it said that the n h s didn't fall over last year. but actually, there are millions of people who have not had the treatment that they needed to have over the last 18 months because the hospital service had to be diverted to the cove. it. and many people will have died because they didn't get that cancer

treatment in time. so in since the n h s did fall over because the n h s didn't have the resilience. and after a long standing issue of not having invested properly in the community and in public health and in home care and in general practice. and that distortion goes back many decades with our infatuation with hospitals rather than building up the health services from the grass roots from the neighborhood and community. yeah, something interesting, right at the beginning the excel center is previously used for selling arms to countries were staffed by soldiers to think there was an idea that we should put into the public imagination. the idea of militarization will save us rather than the health service. well, you know, the new agency that's replaced public health, england at the her so called security health security agency. they've

got paramilitary uniforms. what, why would that be? i wonder, but i think it must be based on the american public health service where they were military uniforms on friday. and just very briefly, barbara johnson can't depend on the nurses, the porters, the lowest paid in the n, h s. despite the de facto pay card issued by the government to come through this with all the pressures you outlined. i worked on a friday in liverpool vaccinating with a fantastic group of nurses who had drawn from all parts of the national health service in liverpool. many of them were working on intensive care over the last year, dealing with dying patients from cove it. they are an amazing group of nurses, amazing group of health workers, and they will, they will turn out and it's their last breath if they, if they need to. they are amazing people that many of all and

h s staff are exhausted. many of them are suffering from post traumatic stress because of the things they've seen and been through over the last 18 months. and you know, we are risking at the breakdown of this of our house service because we're neglect of the health and safety a well being of our own staff. professor john ashton, thank you. after the break land of the free or kingdom of the president is american democracy, one of the nearly 1000000 victims of the war on terror. all this, i'm all coming up in part 2 of going underground. ah. is there now a dual system of justice many think self, for example, a former senior f b, i official lied repeatedly to his bosses, but now is exonerated. but a former head of the national security council did not lie to be f

b i in his life was destroyed. where is the justice in that needs been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime, but old wound still haven't healed with nickel freedom. okay. people michelle or calling me on the bus at the 6 me note that i, the concussion with thousands of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption. donnelly bought about, i use them for fiesta. with my own robots, i feel elementary to this day, mother still search for grown children, while adults look in hope for their birth parents. and welcome back to day moscow hosts international talks on afghanistan in the

aftermath of nato's defeat. after the international criminal court, new british trop judge cancelled investigations into alleged u. s. war crimes. the so does the i. c c's decision to de prioritize, war crimes, give caught launch to washington breaking international law. joining me now is professor warren greenberg author of new book, subtle tools, the dismantling of american democracy from the war on terror to donald trump. professor karen greenberg, thanks for coming on going underground, given the extraordinary rendition water boarding drones strikes. we saw joe biden's drone strike killing 7 of cobble for the african withdrawal. subtlety isn't the 1st thing that comes to mind. what are these subtle tools in the title of your new book? ok, yes. that's one of the things there. not some things are not so subtle, but my idea is that all the policies that you've mentioned, whether it's drone tag renditions, to torture, et cetera, were what we saw. but always just as important, if not more important,

was how they were done. and the tools that were used to create these policies and then until the united states recognizes these tools and addresses, those we are still vulnerable to the kinds of accesses from laws and norms that we encountered and suffered in the wake of the task at 911 cause some might say that way before 911, these tools were being used in this fascination strikes, either a che guevara, that assassination. these things happened all the time. why after 911, did they even need to have some structural basis in which they could attack people, individual nations in the way that we've seen since 911. because because so much of what had been done often in the covert here and within, you know, agencies that were had, those kinds of powers were broadened across government. so wanted to settle tools i talk about is and perhaps to your point, the least subtle. with secrecy,

the way in which secrecy was used in the war on terror to n. yes, it had been used before in the vietnam war for example, and many other times to do things in the name of the american people that they did not know about reached new levels in terms of its implementation. it's, it's implementation, but it's also it's made into law. the department of justice declared illegal. the use of enhancing irrigation techniques, which war torture. so the use of secrecy as, as a parent, a minute shift in terms of how frequently, how often, and how broadly across the government it was used is a different level than what happened before. so it's not a brand new tool. it was just a tool that, that many more were agreed to use given the trauma of 911 and use the phrase in on the interrogation. one of your 1st subtle jewels is the degradation of

language. i don't suppose langley is full of people reading, dairy and friends show post structuralist. why is the degradation of language so important as a tool used by the united states? move joshua, complicate to me. this is the most interesting of all the tools, perhaps in is one that feeds the other tools that i mentioned. the abuse of language and in particular the use of language is in precise is what allowed 4 major trans for me since within the culture of government governance in the united states. so for example, the authorization for the use of military force from 2001, which really was about the use of troops in afghanistan. what did not name anatomy did not have a time limit, did not name or refer to the n hostilities, and did not have a geographical limit. this is encountered distinction to prior authorization to the use of force and prior declarations of war in u. s. history and what that enabled that in precision, in language that we fuse

a book to be specific did was to enable the united states and each successive president to use the authorization in countries around the world. if he, if, basically with the idea that this was related somehow to terrorism, and even though we've pulled out of afghanistan now the 2001 authorization that authorized that invasion and the sending of troops afghanistan still persists. so it is a tool that president do not want to get rid of even joe biden, who has shown his intention and desire to really bring to an end this period of the war on terror that was started with the attacks of 911. now we know that to and mike, one player said non hostile or hostile non stage intelligence agency referring to wiki leaks. subsequently we've now heard about cia plaza, kidnap julian assad, gum bottles in london, people involved in the songs case,

and people certainly were journalists said, why didn't we realize that he was actually giving a sort of code this press conference. you talk about the way enemy belligerents mean, and i mean, competence of the biden administration or they, they changed the bomber administration, change some of the terms, the bush administration. so obama came into office, very cognizant of the of the kind of excess is that the smoke is about. from the very beginning, he tried to address secrecy. he tried to make crap procedures go back to sort of respecting a normal vetting of issues and potential policies and to clarify some of the language. however, even the best intentions under obama went awry in this particular respect. in part because it was some of these were useful tools, secrecy being one of them, but also, and also language degradation of language as you referred to earlier. assassination,

you know, these persisted as, as a way of redefining assassination during the drone killer and chief, i mean, is it the road to hell, paved with good intentions if you think that the drug strikes and so they just became very, very useful tools that nobody had wanted to give up on and my point of the book is that leaving them on the table is what gave you extra powers to donald trump, who was somebody who from the beginning made it clear, he did not respect process. he saw how process getting away. he did not respect norms, he was willing to push aside laws when it suited him. and so let me just give some examples. and 1st of all, see took secrecy to new levels, levels that hadn't existed even in the early days of the war on terror. he refused to have notes taken at some very significant meetings as john bolton report. he

refused to have documents created to begin with, not just notes on meetings, but elsewhere. for example, at the border where the separation of families was not documented. and so we uniting families knew we knew what our hard challenge it was going to stop. stop for a 2nd ma'am. in this book it's very clear how you explain on 911 legislation and degradation of language. all these other tools are then somehow brought home to your southern border. yeah, exactly. there's so much that goes on in 2, an immigration policy and the southern border that are the tools that we use. one is i just and taking secrecy to new levels by destroying evidence. so there is an evidence there that listen, it happened in the past that happened in a number of cases in the warren care. but here it became an overt policy. that was, it was part of a pattern. and so other things at the border, there were also interesting, you want to talk about the degradation of language. the intention of the decision to criminalize of these over stays. and to criminalize in undocumented status

meant the ratio of the distinction between criminal and non criminal immigrants or migrants. and so that was a way in which language was again degraded. there was no legal distinction and you could be deported if you were a visa overstay, or if you had committed a criminal act. i mean, it is by then actually not using subtle tools because over these what he's illegally devoted 4000 nations in violation of the actual un refugee convention. whereas trump was trying to do things by the law or using subtle tools. i don't think you were trying to do things by the law. i think trump was saying, look, i can do this, i'm president and president after the war on terror. have gotten away with an awful lot and i'm just going to take it one step further in the ways i want to in the ways i want to do it, for example, and not having a distinction between the white house in the department of justice when it comes to biden, and i can talk about this lastly in particular,

i think he recognizes very clearly what some of these tools are. that doesn't mean he's gonna be able to fix things entirely. i think the southern border is weird. why, why do i mean anyone watching the tv of the scenes on this other border? biden us history on this, and then we saw these horrific scenes on the southern border and it's much worse, isn't it? yeah, the scenes on the southern border, this is the biggest challenge for president by bigger than afghanis and bigger than a number of other issues. and they haven't been able to sort it out yet. they have not, you know, they've tried everything. they've tried emptying the camps. they've tried, you know, was it with democrats, you're saying they have good intentions, but they are unable to get what they were a when it's republicans, you're saying, i mean, is the support piece? it's a piece of scholarship, but i mean, you seem to be ready by the way. i mean, whereas i live in a garage, things were, was dropped, never invaded any other countries. i think it's

a continuum. and i think that the presidency since 911 has suffered tremendously in terms of checks and balances in the presidency, has been empowered in ways that certainly the founding fathers didn't have in mind . and that, and prior periods in american history has been pushed back against both, you know, for republicans and democrats. i think all the presidents now are in this era where the presidency, that congressional restraints on the presidency and judicial restraint on the presidency. our at an all time low. and that changed dramatically after the war on terror in part because of the, the, the subtle tools and the courts allowing imprecise language rather than insisting on precise language. it's as well. law is based on congress not doing its duty in terms of demanding that transparency rather than secrecy and demanding its role in oversight of different agencies that had to do with national security. and that

this re definition of the presidency based on these subtle tools, had led to a period which i will call the 21st century democrats and republicans alike of accountability. that is a road to an unhealthy continuing and maybe institutionalizing in ways we can't fix an unhealthy democracy. so for example, when you have, when you have president, when you have president authorize the use of torture and, and a number of people that write the law, rewrite the law, help implement it, etc. and there is no accounting for it. and a report that's written by the senate is kept basically under wraps and some copies of it destroyed that is not accountability. and so i think these are the tools that allow on accountability to happen, imprecise language, bureaucratic dysfunction in a way that bleeds the distinctions between different departments, for example,

department of justice and department of homeland security to speak to your southern border issue. so it is not just a democratic or republican thing, it really has to do with changes in the culture of governance. and well, i do think that obama and biden have expressed verbally. i want to fix this, as opposed to donald trump saying, you know, not wanting to fix it. let me say president bush, at the end of his presidency, there were things he wanted to finish. one of them was he wanted to close one time out, which was outside the law, outside of norms and which relied on many of the subtle tools that he was very clear about. he released more than $500.00 individuals. i'm going to panama, and he probably said that he would like to see one time a post. so it's not a blanket, no good, bad or indifferent. but my issue is the transformation of the presidency. and i think everybody who, who has that office should be mindful of what these tools are and, and it's very hard to give up. power is particularly when some of them are secret,

particularly when there's a precedent for using them before whether or not it's been better to the courts or congress. and so, you know, my issue is the culture of governance and not, and i'm, yes, i would like to think that president biden will be able to dispense with some of these tools, but it's early in the presidency. so we will say professor garen green. but thank you for subtle truth is out. now that's for sure. we'll be back on track with it's my social media and let us know if you think washington's war on terror continues to violate international ah, that is other choice of the point. but also with a finley daniels provided with castile with just was just blue. say that him and then

you would you that is images, moves up was good for supposedly good. have my did some, i would say again to spend your music. his image is filica. mom the let's look at her was out of the to get the vote. if idea with all of your group, plan it up, all of the bella is ready to leave you to the shelf worship with kaiser financial survival guide. when customers go buy, you reduce the right now well, reduce a lower ah, that's under cutting. but what's good for food market?

it's not good for the global economy. when i see black america, i see part of my so i was growing, you know, like america spoke to me with white australia. did not. those who say black lives matter is a movement. we are importing from america. know nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where wide lives mattered. i was not wise. like with i know i wasn't known from black america. i learned how to speak back to whiteness. aboriginal people of iraq more every day. we were out loaded system. now with the police were out with i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then there are

other fellow friends in daycare patients in england are reportedly having to wait up to 50 hours for a bed in accident and emergency wards. that's as the pandemic puts fresh pressure on hospital every step of the way that mismanaged the crisis. aside from the vaccine roll, re fastening of any faith in the current government, german police warned the country's border with poland is at risk of collapse amid rising flows of migrants crossing into the you from belarus. brussel is not moving to tackle the influx though, still relying on sanctions and refusing to even talk to minsk and facebook has to fork out of millions of dollars in a discrimination case after giving preference to hiring foreigners over americans.