academic, but 1st, your tweets emails and messages in response to i should last think on we davis is thesis of the end of the american century. stephen wright says, excellent, pleased by caught in this professor. and this is 2nd. yes and is today i do watching at stephen next step, martin says hardly as biden and democrat. so the ones of course divides and continue to make it was rummage, teenager says alan salmon. sure was all time knowledgeable. and the best informative show. well, thank you. grammy and finally we kiki message from arthur mcmullin, who says, can we have a couple of anthropologists for north and says, this east west part of a mix of pious. now global politics over the last quarter century has been dominated by the tensions and struggles between the west on this swamp quote. one consistent and respected voice over that period has been not a professor lecturing and campaigning for greater understanding between the waste. i'm islam. now, in the aftermath of the kiosk,

from couple alex interview professor on the prospects for the new professor, doctor last. but i'm and welcome to the alley silence show. thank you so much, alex. thank you. it's a great on it to be on your show. that's how you started me and very clear in public service, and i want to tell you back to you and they have days as an administrator on the success of presidencies and, and pakistan. what i, what about tell you about about run a often troubled areas? well, i says, you know, that, but his son in india both were part of the legacy of the old indian civil service that the british had sent up. and this was considered the finest service in all the world in all the entire colonies in positions of western pause rested in period policy based in merit based on examinations. so bach son had dead the c s p,

the central civil services, and i joined this in 1966, and as a member of this. so is this god, i served in various posts in the tribal areas of the frontier province. and in baluchistan, i was commission on 3 divisions in but just on which is a long record because very different postings. and then. ready the most interesting, i was head of the was even on agency, which was considered the most turbulent and most dangerous of all the postings in all of south asia. and at one stage lot goes in, the viceroy ran this that a key himself. that's how dangerous it was considered. so even for those of us who don't know us as much about pakistan, i'm in office and one of the, the mistakes we make is the gardening pakistan is a homogeneous society. but for someone, for your part, then these tribal areas of pakistan with the tribal traditions and loyalties and of

course on a prevailed they must have presented particular difficulties to administer. very difficult. they difficult because they have a such a code of honor code of life. and tribal societies, the ones i do market as tribal. and of course, my book, the puzzle. and the john was a study of 40 tribal societies from oracle to not after going to the middle east and into the caucasus mountains and all the societies mechanic to rise by a lineage based society. and it is a quarter wanna, which depended on hospitality and revenge of angels of ape important part of this code. and then finally, a constant struggle between the center, the central government, wherever that was, and the periphery. so these types of mainly on the periphery of the, of the nation state. so you see this head running through these tribal societies. and this is what i found when i arrived and was used as your career progressed.

you were trusted, one of the, the great appointments which should be high commissioner than and london. and you arrived in the late 1090, of course was a payment of some difficulty because the then form sent to robin cook and protest against the ability takeover and pakistan where it was refusing to acknowledge or recognize of give full diplomatic credence to those how did you handle that particular difficulty? as appointed as high commissioner? it was a difficult posting and i think it was just before 911. so pakistan was seen as a but i so my job was to really try to just keep its head above water, which i did. i had desperately reached out and made contacts, build bridges, and but i was having trouble all the time because of the reality of the situation in pakistan. for example, i invited the archbishop of canterbury george carrier not getting paid to park son

and he agreed and it was a wonderful agreement because if he came, we could have genuine interface discussion impacts on and show that buxton very much fun to this. no global attempt to create bridges now, but i was shot down by the facts and fun, so service because they believed that and they were influenced by some writing thinking of fishes had no, we can't do that because what, when them one last 8 and i was really alarmed, i said if we are so intimidated by the us and we are going to be in trouble sooner later. and i was right because now of course we have a situation, buxton in the extreme lighting and just come out on the, on the streets and threaten them, have demonstration, and actually attacked people. and you saw the killing of the governor and job and so on. so that the atmosphere had begun to change when i was hi kamicia. and it was a fairly turbulent i was there about 9 months. it was a fairly turbulent, turbulent type, a thing, did you find that?

then i mean, as, let's say, a voice of what might be 10 little islam. finding it difficult for, for western politicians or a range of them across the parties. a to have a dialogue with, with, even as an yourself, an exponent of a liberal philosophy as well as long was i deeply frustrating that you couldn't get the communication you were looking for. i found it very frustrating, alex because people saw me not as me, but this ami a m p as representing a government, a military government, not to popular government. so i was in a sense squash between 2 systems which were not really understanding or taking advantage of the fact that i had been a scholar with the legitimacy. i had been the platform, i had a voice in britain and there were nodding batch and some to sing me a symbolic of something that was at that stage vacant, racial and unpopular. and remember, 911 happened bucks and joined the west in alliance and suddenly became

a welcome part of the, the wanted against the f one people. but i got time to close one of your great projects or the generic trilogy was sir, what was taking place was at the time that time that we met cross for the for the 1st time. and when it was a, a, the, i think the foam are part of the trilogy. we had are a premier in the house of commons and the, and was a novel. and of course the history is as well. how do you feel looking back that, that the, that initiative on gina did? did you think that mileage to, to touch and get beyond the usual audience of people to understand a bit more about the, the background, the formation of the pakistani state that the, the tension sometimes between religion and stated that, that, that trilogy achieved for you? what you hoped alex 1st so thank you for your support. you in to the support you gave me during those days. it was monumental task. remember it had not been done.

no one had done it before. i went to professional fin make and yet i was determined because i felt i stood there to point to many, many different strengths combined. and i could pull it off and i threw myself into it as you know. so i was all over the place, traveling, raising funds, getting world of actors and produce production companies and so on. and in the end we achieved it in the end, i can say with tried that i can see it completed it and had the film out of the book out the document. and it was due for a full projects of the quartet of studies. so lead in one sense, each one of those, the projects dense with one section of society. so for the film, it was the general public. then i had an academic book for the academics than a documentary for more serious scholars, people interest in history. and as you say, a comic book 1st one of the 1st and then now christopher lee, who played gina, i great english actor christopher lee was, was he your choice system when he was

a great choice? me be a, put him in as jenna and we found that he was based on tuition and bucks on, but some members of the public who had a reason to oppose oppose the film project. not for sensible reasons, but again, personal reasons. but you know, i think christopher lee that god bless him throughout his life and to, to the end of his life in every interview, would say that my greatest role was that of a tremendous tribute. and he was terrific when we were filming, it was opposition. they were protest and he would come with me and talk to people and he would calm people down and say, look, i'm here to be a tribute to your great fonda, mr. jones, one of the big fan of history to it really wasn't amazing experience. it was almost like a battery being conducted. remember, no one who made of sim one. gina before this. remember that gina is so i don't want you to a secret, but he saw restricted by so many in bucks on the very ideal watching him on, on,

on, on the screen and by someone like christopher lee, what they did directly. lance on was almost blasphemy. and what's a resistance to christopher lee, who as you rightly say, proclaimed as one of his great roles of not his greatest role. it was that different from what see was the resistance ben kingsley a playing gandhi in the ill tentative film of what was something particular people wanted a pakistani actor to, to play the founder of the state. i wanted a vein when establish an actor who can pull off the rule, not simply hire someone who was pakistani or who was someone who belong to some tribal group, our family group. and we could push them as things often done in bucksta. and we considered many, many actors i was in, corresponded with jeremy irons, for example, i had by him as an actor. but in the interest, hopefully not only look to plot,

but he was so enthusiastic he really came in as you know, for all out determined to not only act as you know, he would tell me this. he would say just didn't unami focused on, i am going to make sure that this film on janelle will be completed. it should have expected to yet like your, your career developed into academia and a succession of ivy league university is in the and the united states. are you know, sooner starting that rule. i think one of your very 1st lectures was, was actually on the day of, of 911. so the, an enormous terrorist, a incident which is dictated so much of the last 20 years was actually happening as you were delivering one of your, your 1st lectures. first, absolute van, except that said, well wanted, i was actually in class, i just joined your medic in university in washington, d. c. m. m. i am coming from england via princeton at princeton as a professor there for a year. and suddenly i realized at that moment,

but these students began to sort of almost disintegrate in my class. and then some of them said there's been an attack. and i learned that there was a plane that flew into the pentagon, and i realized then i really did because i had this experience in the field of dealing with people in real life situations. i realized that this was the moment in a sense that my life would be leading up to. so i vowed then i said all my experience in training and knowledge is going to be now dedicated to promoting understanding between the muslim world and the non muslim world. because i knew the gaps would open up and they continue to open up. so there you are a moment on history as the most prominent muslim academic and america, seeing that this was a, a moment for, for greater understanding of what was going on. and we'll come to that to the and the 2nd half of the sense of you

ah, the poor in america, i'm gone poor, and they've been vastly more numerous. and the billing our class have gotten more a 1000000000 area to a great extent. but the government reports and the aggregates to look, they always take a foreign billionaire and they put them together. they say to put those 2 together, we don't see any inflation. well, this worked for about 20 years and people were fooled by this. and anyone who complained was considered to be anti american. well, now, because of the mis allocation of breast for so long in the ricochet and boomerang, a verse coming back into the system. if we now have catastrophic system failure. ah, it's been decade since the fall of spain's fascist regime, but old wound still haven't hailed your interests and going into them is what he finished. because when the foaming out to you,

michael feed him up gay people to miss a powell said cutting me in the parentheses, me neighborhood anxious and they think was more to you know, thousands of newborn babies were torn from their mothers and given away and forced adoption they don't really bottom on are you just yet? fiesta, bitter. my old robles affiliate amendment to this day mothers still search for grown children, while adults look in hope for their birth parents. welcome back. alex is in conversation with world leading with them anthropologist, professor ahmed, what are the prospects for new understanding between the west and us? one, professor, when i went there you were assess prominent sir the most prominent muslim academic, much in demand of all the great talk shows as america was under doing this trauma a brought in to to testify at

a senate healings and then to decision makers in the white house and how, how did you get a cross and how much understanding, how much knowledge were you able to impart? i'm how much willingness did you find to, to reception to that message. i would constantly constantly project my own ideas that in these tribal societies and for straight away i said look me up attacking of lunchtime. we're going to go into iraq and is smiley. i'm human. and all these societies and tribal societies are always hit and kind. you cannot treat them like you would be treating normal nation states. and in order to succeed in these societies, you must understand their culture and their traditions and been worked through them and then create an alternative to just bombing them and joining them and so on. now i will say that while i was respected and people never were router, they didn't throw me out to these meetings. i was again, one man in

a meeting of age, people are 10 people with a different ideas. for example, in one of these meetings, again, this is the highest level. i was a call to see that one of the academics who had been called to advise on understand actually suggested that we a video cassettes of be watch with pamela anderson. and that donavon would be so affected by this that, that they would lay down their arms. and i thought that was the most ridiculous thing i tried. and i said that, and i'm sorry to say no one really responded to what i had said. and a lot of them, not just their heads in agreement with what is being said. so it was very frustrating that i, who had spent my lifetime with tribal societies, had something to say. and i was very often or written by people who simply belong to a political party or that it had some kind of alliance with the decision makers. and in one of these presentations, the head of the troops and understand responded very encouragingly. he wasn't

dismissing me, he said, how do you think we should move then if your case is correct? the pistol and the drawn pieces? how should we move ahead? how should we be dealing with these tribal societies? how do we deal to it is do we deal to the question, the young, the young, a part of the society which is challenging the end about which by the way alex is happening in public right now after the fall of college. you also have this tension between the and is the measure and the young, the young guy elements, the question that's the classic confrontation which is being overlooked by people in the west. but they don't understand this, this nuance. so yes, it was in a sense, exciting and then to good for the ego. but on the other hand, also greatly frustrating that what you a little advice i could get in as said i was just one of the, many of the scholars in them. people studying that area who offering advice and that the advice wasn't really taken racist because had a range of publications advocating greater understanding between the,

the islamic world in the western world. but you mentioned the saw in the drone. and i remember when i, when i saw the ticket fast, i assumed that the ssl might have a connection with scotland because of your great association with scotland as high commissioner and elsewhere. i wasn't altogether wrong about that. was i the question of tribal society, the fissile is tolstoy actually, but nonetheless that the connection, the tell us tell us idea behind the fossil, the drawing. when alex, you put your finger on it is from told stories, famous story about hygiene we're not told so is up in the mountains in the caucasus mon, to the but the imperial russian army. and he sees a pistol on a walk. he's on a walk, she's a senior flower tries to pluck it. and as you know, the tinsel has a little pony side to it and it picks him. and he then, from that begins to ruminate and say, the tribes here are somewhat like the to select the solid. beautiful. yeah. now

they attract to the same time. if you try to just block them, they will fight back to pick you and discuss have of course use this as a symbol of their own culture. and i'm a great admirer of the scots in their culture and their traditions. and in fact, we have some family links with their mom, my sister married to a of a noble family of the scots. and i found that the idea of the counseling don't had very strong links to the scott. i was of course, looking at the muslim world, and i was interested to see if you looked at these societies not in terms of religion, but in terms of anthropological structures and traditions. and i'll just then, yes, the scots are very much the classic tribal society was it also phrase of course switzerland fighting with scottish and english. a emblem says you can set in a rose b can i set an official? and i think it's an advisable to try to suppress the scores. what was that?

any response to st. louis? the might be a better way than this all encompassing warren well, you know, i mentioned a lot of these very senior, very distinguished americans who didn't respond to a positively. and i wasn't holding back up with that as a scholar. i wanted to be as fast as possible. i pointed out the strengths of their many, many strengths of the american culture, american tradition, which are widely appreciated in the muslim world. for example, the education institutions, a promotion of knowledge and thought. but i also pointed out that when you urinate on dead bodies in understand or flush the quote on down the toilet, that is going to upset not only the taliban but all muslims, and then create problems. people didn't pick that up in recently, professor noam chomsky was considered now one of the leading of perhaps the leading american public intellectual. again talk of that is linda and john and said this, that this is the book that should be read. now after the fall of gobble,

because me make the same mistakes again and again. and he went into it in some details as a piece to see that it isn't entirely a did a did. i didn't turn in terms of the scholarship in that book. why this was going on, professor and how did test, what are your students a great form of communication that we're you testing the reaction on your classes at the american university was that guiding you on how you could get your, your message across in a more white spread way. well, you know, that's, again, is a fascinating question because i didn't, i will, is act very much in and the socratic tradition, which is dick my students with me in terms of dialogue, understanding i don't forced knowledge down their throats, but presented to them. and let them think for themselves. so when i began to formulate my i've, they're all finished projects. i said look, let's go and look at them. wisdom, well and see what's happening. we hear things about them on television way,

often drawn stereotypes distortion. let's go and find out to scholars who come to me and i had 4 really good students who accompanied me. just think of this alex at the height of the war on terror. i. d, 's american students and be traveling to the middle east to south asia to fight asia. we had even been able to, we have tv, the vision was shut up, then he was present bucksta. we had lunch with the prime minister box. and the students came back with incredible information and just wants his, which i put in my studies and people who would really be moved by that, that these a young americans looking at the same problems to fresh eyes. so here we are though 20 years later they, it wasn't, panel has methods to new, mong, in the humiliating and bloody retreat from kabul. chaotic. secondly, do you think about that? no marks another tumbling point, another tumbling page in history of bringing people to terms of how you must

conduct a successful a relationship with the a slam. it will re, i yes, in the one phase of the $1.00 to $1.00 base in deity. now look, lanza, but we are seeing a way entering into a more dangerous even more i would say exist angeles phase of world history. because we have the pandemic, we have climate change. and then we have this growing global confrontation, that shipping the world, which is drawing in on the super policy. we have china versus the us. but the us now is alliance at india with australia, japan, the u. k. and then also gone in and the idea is to contain china and you see these very dangerous chinese flights over taiwan. you see american ships sailing in the south china seas and it reminds me attentively awfully nightmare scenario of the 1st world war which began if someone be shocked in sarajevo, that triggering reactions in

a chain. and intended consequences would lead to the 1st one wall. and the 2nd one was connected and ended up by killing 100000000000 people. unfortunately, in this case, if god forbid that ever came a confrontation between america and china, it wouldn't be 100000000. it may be the end of life as we know it, but thankfully, we will sit thankfully, that isn't by then as again, the latest news is that he has been g r planning to on line, which will conference and the next couple of weeks. so there is a sense and hopefully sense will prevail. finally, professor, i thought i'm an american site if it's nothing else, society, great hope. so an optimist. so when you're, you're teaching your students know what can you offer a new generation and times of a glimmer of hope. some sunlight breaking through the forbidding clothes in terms of what the future may hold for them. an extreme point because it is on the

shoulders of this young generation. students who are now about 20 years old and remember most of them up pro, post 911. so they don't know any word except to willow violence, a wall decapitation of torture. when finally to for them, you need to give some sense of hope and idealism. as you see the classic american view of the world, which is really a very optimistic one. so i find that it's very useful to go back to the founding fathers. i find that there's nothing like an injection of washington jefferson, benjamin franklin at a new nation, the dawn of an issue with these new ideas. and they are very exciting ideas. they're fresh ideas if come from the old world from europe, and they're going to create a new society base and knowledge and fairness and justice in reaching out. and i know that there are some problems which they will deal with later down the road in history. but that vision,

especially jefferson writing the declaration and the constitution very, very inspiring. and i find that the young generation really respond to that. because right now they are facing that rather gloomy environment where there are reports of mental health problems. at this lockdown, they have problems of suicide. all these things are in society today, which are tricky to affect this natural optimism of america. and i find the best way to offset that is to remind them what america stands for and what is done. it can then project and give to the world because the world would appreciate that america arriving with the education schemes developing schemes. not driving with jones and besides and ways to tighten and exterminate the local people. professor, i thought i meant thank you so much for joining me and alex simon show. thank you. thank you so much. thank you. answered polly, just wait davis and examine decades not elect to cycle weight. davis has been

flexing on the ends of their medical fancy underworld consequences of american economic on political hedge money being supplanted by the apparently an example rise of china against a bad cause of the war on tedder, professor parameter provided a voice of reason i reconciliation between the west, i'm this womic world. one aspect of that breakdown of understanding. it's a dangerous psychology of collective lead, where entire communities, countries, or religions are blamed for the actions of this was a poisonous campaign tactic so often exposed by president trump. never has this danger been more patent than in mission things in britain where a huge lead, respected m. p was murdered, was the only suspecting someone of somalian headed to turn reality listens didn't kill so david amos no more than breakfast. he has murdered the labor mpg,

cooks in 2016. they were killed by individuals against the back cause of increasingly toxic lexical discourse. thus, the insights and understanding provided by professors we davis and it has never been more valuable or more important. but for now, from alex, myself and all the sure, thank you for watching. stay safe. i'm hope to see you all again. next. ah ah ah, the rather persuasive supposedly with

a fin. daniel's trulia with the basilica, thought the other mother. likewise, melissa was assumable. it was just food, say that him and then you would you that is images moves up was good for supposedly gonna have my dad on the wheelchair. the gates are span, visit his image, his parents to become mom. my phone with her was out of the to get the vote for idea or the, all of your room planted some way up, all of the fellow with the, to the shelter bush up with

with from a health crisis to a job crisis, police officers, firefighters, even nuclear scientists quit or get fired or mass of cobit 19 vaccine mandates in america. the white house down plays a supply chain crisis with over half of america, saying they face shortages when trying to buy common consumer products. these days . melinda, electrical business and everything is back order. you've got to wait months, you are items on the store, so not everybody i, we're on for for stuff right now. we go the story. if you to the grieving father from afghanistan who lost 10 family members in a wrongful you escrow strike, he shares his agony and thoughts on you as company.