so the ones that have caused the device and continue to make it what ram is taneesha says i'll examine. sure. with all time knowledgeable and the best informative sure will. thank you grabbing. and finally we kiki message from arthur mcmullin. who says, can we have a couple of anthropologists for north and south this east west part of a mix of pious? now global politics over the last quarter century has been dominated by the tensions and struggles between the west on the atlantic world. one consistent and respected boys over that period has been not a professor lecturing in campaigning for greater understanding between the west underslung. now in the aftermath of the chaos of critique from couple alex interviews, professor on the prospects for the new raft, social professional doctor last. but i'm and welcome to the alley silence show. thank you so much, alex. thank you. it's a great on it to be on your show. that's how you start invaded the clear and public

service. and i want to tell you, but 2 and a half days as an administrator on the success of presidencies and, and pakistan. what, what does that tell you about about running off in the troubled areas? well, nice as you know that, but his son in india both were part of the legacy of the old indian civil service that the british had sent up. and this was considered the finest service in all the world and on the entire colonies in positions of western policy rested, imperial policy based in merit based on examinations. so pac sun had dead the csp, the central civil services. and i joined this in 1966, and as a member of this. so is this god, i served in various posts in the tribal areas of the frontier province. and in baluchistan, i was commission on 3 divisions in but just on which is along the record because

very different postings. and then the most interesting, i was head of the was easiest on agency, which was considered the most turbulent and most dangerous of all the postings in all of south asia. and at one stage, not because in the viceroy i ran this directly himself. that's how dangerous it was considered. so even for those of us who don't know us as much about pakistan, i'm in office and one of the, the mistakes we make is for gardening, pakistan is a homogeneous society. but for, for someone, for your back then these tribal alias of pakistan with the tribal traditions and loyalties and of course, ana, a, prevailed, they must have presented particular difficulties to administer. very difficult, very difficult because they have a certain code of honor code of life. and tribal societies, the ones i do market as tribal. and of course, my book, the cylinder drawn, was

a study of 40 tribal societies from oracle, to north africa, into the middle east and into the caucasus mountains. and all the societies were characterized by a lineage based society. and it is a code of honor which depended on hospitality and revenge of angels of ape important part of this court. and then finally, a constant struggle between the center, the central government, wherever that was, and the periphery. so these types of mainly on the periphery of the, of the nation state. so you see this head running through these tribal societies. and this is what i found when i arrived it was use and as your career progressed, you were untrusted one of the, the great appointments which should be high commissioner than and london. and you arrived in the late 19 ninety's of course was timer. of some difficulty because the then for the secretary, robyn cook and protest against the military takeover and pakistan where it was

refusing to acknowledge or recognize of give full diplomatic credence to those. how did you handle that particular difficulty as appointed as high commission? it was a difficult posting and i think it was just before 911. so pac sun was seen as a prior to my job was to really try to just keep its head above water, which i did. i had desperately reached out and made contacts, built bridges, and but i was having trouble all the time because of the reality of the situation in pakistan. for example, i invited the archbishop of canterbury george carrier not getting paid to park son and he agreed. and it was a wonderful the agreement because if he came, we could have genuine interface discussion impacts on ensure that box sounds very much part of this global attempt to create regions. and, but i will shut down by the black signing fun. so the service because they believe that and they're influenced by some writing, thinking officials who's had no,

we can't do that because what, when them one last 8 and i was really alarmed. i said if we are so intimidated by the last and we are going to be in trouble sooner later. and i was right. because now of course, we have a situation, buxton in the extreme lighting and just come out on the, on the streets and threaten them. have demonstration that actually attack people. and you saw the killing of the governor and job and so on. so that the atmosphere had begun to change, but i was high commissioner and it was a fairly turbulent i was there about 9 months. it was a fairly turbulent, turbulent type, a thing, did you find that, that in as a, let's say, a voice of what might be termed liberal as lam, a finding it difficult for, for western politicians or arrange a film across the parties. a to have a dialogue with, with even a, as in yourself, a, an exponent of a liberal philosophy as a, as lamb was a deeply frustrating that you couldn't get the communication you were looking for.

i found it very frustrating, alex because people saw me not as me, but this ami, some kids representing a government, a military gum and not a popular government. so i was in a sense squash between 2 systems which were not really understanding or taking advantage of the fact that i had been a scholar with the legitimacy. i had been a platform, i had a voice in britain. and if there were a nodding batch and some to sing me a symbolic of something that was at that stage vacant, racial and unpopular and remember, 911 happened bucks and joined the west in alliance and suddenly became a welcome bye to lee the war on terror against the f one people, but i might not time across one of your great projects or the, the general trilogy was what was taking place. it was at the time that time that we met close for the, for the 1st time. and when it was a, the, i think the foam a part of the trilogy, we had a premier in the house of commons and, and was

a novel. and of course the history is as well. i do feel looking back that, that, that initiative on jenna did, did you think that mileage to, to touch and get beyond the usual audience of people to understand a bit more about the, the background of the formation of the pakistani state that the, the tension sometimes between religion and stated that that, that trilogy achieved for you. what you hoped, alex, 1st of all, thank you for your support. you incredible. the support you gave me during those days. it was a monumental task. remember, it had not been done? no one had done it. before i went to professional fin make, and yet i was determined because i felt i stood at a point where many, many different strengths combined. and i could pull it off and i threw myself into it as you know. so i was all over the place of traveling, raising funds, getting hold of actors and produce production companies and so on. and in the end

we achieved it in the end, i can say with pride that i can see him completed it and had to fill them out the book out the document. and they will do form for projects of the quartet of studies . so that in one sense, each one of those, the projects dense with one section of society. so for the film, it was the general public. then i had an academic book for the academics than a documentary for more serious scholars, people interest in history. and as you say, a comic book 1st one of the 1st on now christopher lee who played gena. i 2nd grade english actor christopher lee was, was he your choice system? when he was a great choice? me be a, put him in as jenna and we found that he was based on tuition and bucks, but some members of the public who had a reason to oppose oppose the film project. not for sensible reasons, but again, personal reasons. but you know, i think christopher lee that god bless him throughout his life and to,

to the end of his life in every interview, would say that my greatest role was that of jenna in the film janai. he did a tremendous tribute and he was terrific while we were filming, it was opposition. they were protests and he would come with me and talk to people and he would come people down and say, look, i'm here to pitch a beauty of great fonda. mr. jones, one of the big fan of history to it really wasn't amazing experience. it was almost like a battle be conducted. remember, no one had made a film on gina before this. remember that gina is so i don't want to do a secret, but he's sort of restricted by so many in bucks on the very ideal watching him on, on, on, on the screen and by someone like christopher lee, what they did directly. lance on was almost best for me. and what's a resistance to christopher lee, who as you rightly say, proclaimed as one of his great roles of not as great as role. it was that different from what, see, what's the resistance, ben kingsley, a playing gandhi and,

and ill tennis, a film of in what was something particular people want to see that a pakistani actor to, to play the founder of the state. i wanted a very well established actor who can pull off the road and not simply hire someone who was pakistani, or who was someone who belong to some tribal group, our family group. and we could push them as things often done in bucks. and we considered many, many actors. i was in corresponding with jeremy irons, for example, i had by him as an actor. but in the interest, hopefully not only look the plot, but he was so enthusiastic he really came in as you know, for all out. determined to not only act as you know, he would tell me this. he would say, just as jenna made pakistan, i am going to make sure that this went on, janelle will be completed it to fix it. yet. let me know your career developed into academia and a succession of ivy league university is in the united states. and,

you know, sort of starting that rule. i think one of your very 1st lectures was, was actually on the day of, of 911. so the, an enormous a terrorist, a incident which is dictated so much of the last 20 years was actually happening as you were delivering one of your, your 1st lectures, post absolute and except that you wanted, i was actually in class, i just joined american university in washington d. c. and remember i'm coming from england via instant i was at princeton as a professor there for you. and suddenly i realized at that moment, but the students began to sort of almost disintegrate in my class. and then some of them said there's been an attack and i learned that there was a plane that flew into the pentagon and i realized then i really did because i had this experience in the field to dealing with people in real life situations. i realize that this was the moment in a sense that my life had been leading up to. so i vowed,

and i said all my experience in training and knowledge is going to be now dedicated to promoting understanding between the muslim world and the non muslim world. because i knew the gaps would open up and they continued talk enough. so there you are a moment in history as the most prominent a muslim academic and america, seeing that this was a, a moment for, for greater understanding of what was going on. and we'll come to that in the, and the 2nd half of the center. you have ah, it's been decades since the fall of spain's fascist regime, but old wound still haven't tailed. your interest in going into dunlab and the only

sort because only coming out to you michel, freedom. okay. give me a bowl said cutting me on the bus at the station. you know that i just, i think with thousands of newborn babies. what toned from their mother's been given away and forced adoption. they don't know late bought about. i used to yell for faster than my old robots. i feel elements it to this day mothers still search for grown children, while adults look in hope for their birth parents. when i see black america, i see myself. when i was growing, young, black american spoke to me when white australia did not have to cite black marsh measure is a movement we are importing from america. know nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where white lives mattered. and i was not wise like ms. newman

and i wasn't known from black america. i learned how to speak back to whitefish aboriginal people here. i'm more every day we're out wanted system. now with the police were out with she states. i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then there are other schiller friends in daycare, kaiser's financial survival guide. liquid assets are those that you can convert into cash quite easily. but keep in mind, no as the domain to inflation better watch guys re, ah, welcome back. i was in conversation with worldly thing with an anthropologist,

professor, i'm, it was i the prospect for new understanding between the west anderson professor when i'm and there you were us as prominent sir the most prominent muslim academic, much in demand of all the great talk shows as america was under doing this trauma a brought in to, to testify at a senate healings and then 2 decision makers in the white house. and how, how did you get a cross and how much understanding, how much knowledge were you able to impart? i'd how much willingness did you find to, to reception to that message, and i would constantly constantly project my own ideas that in these tribal societies and for straight away i said look me up attacking of lunchtime, we're going to go into iraq and is smiley. i'm human in all these societies and tribal societies are always hit and kind. you cannot treat them like you would be treating normal nation states. and in order to succeed in these societies,

you must understand their culture and their traditions and been worked through them . and then create an alternative to just bombing them and joining them and so on. now i will say that while i was respected and people never were rude and then threw me out to these meetings. i was again, one man out in a meeting of age, people are 10 people with a different ideas. for example, in one of these meetings, again, this is the highest level. i was appalled to see that one of the academics who had been called to advise on of venison actually suggested that we are true cassettes, video cassettes of baywatch with pamela anderson, and the taliban would be so affected by this that, that they would lay down their arms and i thought that was the most ridiculous thing i did. and i said that, and i'm sorry to say no one really responded to what i had said. and a lot of them nodded their heads in agreement with what was being said. so it was

very frustrating that i, who had spent my lifetime with decent tribal societies, had something to say. and i was very often ordered by people who simply belong to a political patio. they had some kind of alliance with the decision makers. and in one of these presentations, the head of the troops in afghanistan responded a very encouragingly. he wasn't dismissing me. he said, how do you think we should move then? if your case is correct, that the pistol and of john pieces. how should we move ahead? how should we be dealing with these tribal societies? how do we deal to eldest or do we deal to the cache of the young, the younger, a part of just society, which is challenging the end to part, which by the way alex is happening in dublin right. now after the fall of god, will you also have this tension between the and is the masha and the youngest, the younger elements? the question that's the classic confrontation which has been overlooked by people in the restaurant that they don't understand this, this nuance. so yes, it was in

a sense, exciting and, and to good for the ego. but on the other hand, also greatly frustrating that what you a little advice i could get in. as i said, i was just one of the many scholars and people studying that idea of who offering advice. and then the advice wasn't really taken basis because had a range of publications advocating greater understanding between islam world in the western world. but you mentioned the fis, on the drone, and i remember when i, when i saw the big fust, i assumed that the fissile might have a connection with scotland because of your great association with scotland as high commissioner. and they'll swear i wasn't altogether wrong about that. was the question of tribal society the 1st, or is tolstoy actually, but nonetheless that the is a connection. the tell us tell us idea to find the, the fiscal, the drawing. when alex, you put your finger on it is from told stories,

famous story about hygiene. we're not told so is up in the mountains in the caucasus mon, to the but the imperial russian army. and he sees a pistol on a walk. he's on a walk. she's a senior flower, tries to pluck it. and as you know, that because he has a little pony side to it and it picks him and he then from bed begins to ruminate and say, the tribes here are somewhat like the to select the solid. beautiful. yeah. they attract to the same time. if you try to just block them, they will fight back to pick you and discuss have of course use this as a symbol of their own culture. and i'm a great admirer of the scots and they kind of change their traditions. in fact, we have some plan, the links with their mom, my sister married to up of a noble family of the scots, and i found that the idea of the discipline had very strong links to the scott. i was of course, looking at the muslim world, and i was interested to see if you looked at these societies not in terms of religion,

but in terms of anthropological structures and traditions. and i'll just then, yes, the scott are very much of the classic tribal society. was it all scott phrase, of course, which in fact taking the scottish and english a emblem says you can set an a rose be, can i set an official? and i think it's an advisable to try to suppress the scores. what was that? any response to st. louis? the might be a better way than this all encompassing warren temp? well, you know, i mentioned a lot of these very senior of a distinguished americans who did respond to a positively and i wasn't holding back up with that as a scholar. i wanted to be as fast as possible. i pointed out the strengths of their many, many strengths of the american culture, american tradition, which are widely appreciated in the muslim world. for example, the education institutions, motion of knowledge and so on. but i also pointed out that when you unit on dead bodies in a plant stand or flush the put on down the toilet, that is going to upset not only the taliban but almost and,

and then to create problems. people didn't pick that up in recently professor norm john's to you is considered now one of the leading of perhaps the leading american public intellectual again talked of the ssl and, and the john and said this, that this is the book that should be read. now after the fall of gobble, because me make the same mistakes again and again. and he went into it in some detail. so as a piece to see that it isn't entirely a did a did. i didn't turn in terms of the scholarship in that book. why this was going on, professor, and how did that? what are your students a great form of communication that we're you testing the reaction on your classes at the american university was that guiding you on how you could get your, your message across in a more widespread way? well, you know, that again is a fascinating question. because i didn't,

i always act very much in the socratic tradition. we just did my students with me in terms of dialogue, understanding i don't forced knowledge down their throats, but presented to them and let them think for themselves. so when i began to formulate my, i've there of a few projects, i said look, let's go and look at them. wisdom well and see what's happening. be here, things about them on television way, often drawn stereotypes distortion. let's go and find out to scholars who come in to me. and i had 4 really good students who accompanied me. just think of this alex at the height of the war on terror. i. d, 's american students and be traveling to the middle east to south asia to fight asia. we had even been able to, we have tv, the vision was shut up, then he was present bucksta. we had lunch with the prime minister box. and the students came back with incredible information and responses, which i put in my studies, and people who are really very moved by that, that these a young americans looking at the same problems to fresh eyes. so here we are now,

20 years later the it wasn't panel has methods to pneumonia in the humiliating and bloody of the treat from kabul. chaotic. secondly, do you think that no mock saw another tumbling point, another tumbling page in history of bringing people to terms of how you must conduct a successful a relationship with the islamic will re, i guess in the one phase of the 12, and one based in theory, now look, lanza, but we have seen a very entering into a more dangerous even more i would say existentialist phase of world history. because we have the pandemic, we have climate change. and then we have this going, global confrontation, that shipping the world, which is drawing in on the super policy. we have china versus the us. but the us now is alliance with india, with australia, japan, and the u. k. and then also gone in and the idea is to contain china and you see

these very dangerous chinese flights over taiwan. you see american ships sailing in the south china seas and it reminds me attentively awfully nightmare scenario of the 1st world war which began if someone being shocked insoluble, that triggering reactions in this chain on intended consequences would lead to the 1st one wall. and the 2nd one was connected and ended up by killing 100000000 people. unfortunately, in this case, if god forbid that ever came a confrontation between america and china, it wouldn't be 100000000. it may be the end of life as we know it. but thankfully, we will sit thankfully, that isn't by dint, as again the latest news is that he is in g r planning to on line which will conference and the next couple of weeks to there is a sense and hopefully sense will prevail. finally, 1st of all, i'm an american site if it's nothing else,

society of great hope. so an optimist. so when you, if you're teaching your students know what can you off of a new generation in terms of a glimmer of hope. some sunlight breaking through the forbidding clothes in terms of what the future may hold for then an extreme point because it is on the shoulders of this young generation. students who are now about 20 years old. and remember most of them up pro, post 911. so they don't know any world except a world of violence, a wall decapitation of torture and a bit to for them. we need to give some sense of hope and idealism. as you see the classic american view of the world, which is really a very optimistic one. so i find that it's very useful to go back to the founding fathers. i find that there is nothing like an injection of washington jefferson, benjamin franklin, at a new nation, the dawn of an issue with these new ideas. and they are very exciting ideas.

they're fresh ideas if come from the old world from europe, and they're going to create a new society based and knowledge and fairness and justice in reaching out. and i know that there are some problems which they will deal with later down the road in history. but that vision, especially jefferson writing the declaration and the constitution very, very inspiring. and i find that the young generation really respond to that because right now they are facing that rather gloomy environment. there, there are reports of mental health problems. at this lockdown. they have problems of suicide. all these things are in society today which are trickling to affect this natural optimism of america. and i find the best way to offset that is to remind them what america stands for and what is done. it can then project and give to the world because the world would appreciate that america arriving with the education schemes developing schemes. not driving with jones and besides and ways

to tighten and exterminate the local people. because that's what i meant. thank you so much for joining me, a malik salmon show. thank you. thank you so much. i look. thank you. i'm to polly just wait davis and examine decades. no, it's elect to psycho way. davis has been flexing on the end of the medical century on the walls, consequences of a medical, economic and political hedge, money being supplanted by the partly an example, rise of china against about close of the war on terror. profess parameters provided a voice of reason. i reconciliation between the west. i'm this womic world. one aspect of that breakdown of understanding. it's a dangerous psychology of collectively where entire communities, countries, or religions are blamed for the actions of a. this was a poisonous campaign tactics so often espoused by president trump. never has this

danger been more apparent than in recent days in britain. what a hugely respected mp was murdered with the only suspect being some one of somali inheritance, but in reality, listens didn't kill sir david amos, no more than break. the tears murdered the labor mpg cox. in 2016, they were killed by individuals against a back cloth of increasingly toxic lexical discourse. thus, the insight and understanding provided by professors we davis and upper arm, it's has never been more valuable or more important. but for now, from alex myself and all that issue, thank you for watching. stay safe. i'm hope to see you all again. next. ah,

ah, ah, is your media a reflection of reality? in a world transformed what will make you feel safer? isolation for community. are you going the right way? where are you being led to some direct? what is true? what is great? in a world corrupted, you need to descend. ah. so join us in the depths will remain in the shallows.

ah, heated dispute between the e. u and members, state poland over whether the blocks laws should take precedence. that's at the center of this week summit and brussels along with efforts to cope with the european energy crisis. a grieving afghan father who lost 10 family members in a wrongful drone strike shares his agony and thoughts on us compensation. compensation is not a remedy for the pain inflicted on us. it can't replace the loss of my family, my brother, my own daughter, nephews. moscow, mayor orders and 11 day locked down for the russian capital in a bid to turn the tide of a record surgeon cobit cases. and us democrats prob claim.