my children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system than their other fellow friends in daycare. a blue blue welcome to the alec salmon show for the 2nd. so if i to program speech into the wealth, most celebrated anthropologist last week, professor wade davis reflected on where the president biden could arrest the

decline of america. and he'll divisions and u. s. society thrown into short belief during the trump presidency. you would have thought that with the criminal investigations, with the light of distance in the wake of the new presidency, with a new hope from the world, the approbation of the world to the election of sho biden. that somehow, trump might have just lost his grip on the republican party in some slight way. the shocking thing alex is he has not all the polls suggest the opposite. this week with turn to another professor and another anthropologist put a view on the prospects of our, our personal, between the west on this planet club. this is the world's most noted muslim academic, but 1st tweets emails and messages in response to i should last think on we davis is thesis of the end of the american century. steven wright says, excellent, please. i caught in to this professor, we did this and this is 2nd. yes and is today i do watching at stephen next step,

martin says hardly as biden and democrat, so the ones of course divides and continue to make it was rummage, teenager says, i'll examine sure. was all time knowledgeable and the best informative show. well, thank you, grammy. and finally, are we teaching message from arthur mcmullin? who says, can we have a couple of anthropologists for north and south this east west part of a mix of pious? now global politics over the last quarter century has been dominated by the tensions and struggles between the west on the summit. quote. one consistent and respected voice over that period has been not a profess lecturing in campaigning for greater understanding between the waste underslung. now in the aftermath of the chaos of retreat from couple alex interviews, professor, i met on the prospect for the new raft social professional doctor last but i'm and welcome to the alley silence show. thank you so much, alex. thank you it's, it's

a great honor to be on your show. that's how you find extraordinary and very clear in public service. and i want to tell you, but you have days as an administrator on the success of presidencies and, and pakistan what, what, what does that tell you about about running often troubled areas? well, i says, you know, that, but his son in india both were part of the legacy of the old indian civil service that the british had sent up. and this was considered the finest service in all the world in on the entire colonies in positions of western pause rested in period post based and made it based on examinations to park sun had dead. the c s. b, the central civil services, and i joined this in 966, and as a member of this service, this god, i served in various posts in the tribal areas of the frontier province. and in

baluchistan, i was commission of 3 divisions in but just on which is a long record because very different postings. and then. ready the most interesting i was head of the was either on agency which was considered the most turbulent and most danger. so all the postings in all of south asia. and at one stage lot goes in the viceroy ran this died a key himself. that's how dangerous it was considered. so, i mean, for those of us who don't know us as much about pakistan, i'm in office one of the, the mistakes we make is the gardening pakistan is a homogeneous society. but for someone, for your part, then these tribal areas of pakistan with the tribal traditions and loyalties and of course on a prevailed they must have presented particular difficulties to administer. very difficult, very difficult because they have

a certain code of honor code of life and tribal societies, the ones i do market as tribal. and of course, my book, the cylinder drawn was a study of 40 tribal societies from oracle to north africa, into the middle east. and into the caucasus mountains and all the societies were characterized by a lineage based society. it is a quarter wanna which depended on hospitality and revenge and eventually important part of this course. and then finally, a constant struggle between the center, the central government, wherever that was, and the periphery. so these types of mainly on the periphery of the, of the nation state. so you see this head running through these tribal societies. and this is what i found when i arrived, it was years and i as your career progressed, you were untrusted one of the, the great appointments which should be high commissioner than and london. and you arrived in the late 19 ninety's of course was payment of some difficulty because

then for the secretary, robin cook and protest against the military takeover and pakistan where it was refusing to acknowledge or recognize of give full diplomatic credence to those. how did you handle that particular difficulty? as appointed as high commission? it was a difficult posting, and i think it was just before 911. so pac sun was seen as a prior to my job was really tried to just keep its head above water, which i did. i had desperately reached out and made contacts, built bridges. and, but i was having trouble all the time because of the reality of the situation in pakistan. for example, i invited the archbishop of canterbury george carrier not getting to park sun and he agreed. and it was a wonderful the agreement because if he came, we could have genuine interface discussion impacts on ensure that box sounds very much part of this global attempt to create regions. now,

but i will shut down by the pac signing fun so service because they believe that and they were. ready influenced by some right wing thinking of fishes had no, we can't do that because what when them one last 8 and i was really alarmed. i said if we are so intimidated by the less than we are going to be in trouble sooner later and i was right. because now of course we have a situation, buxton and the extreme lighting a group just come out on the, on the streets and threaten them. have demonstration then actually attacked people and you saw the killing of the governor and job and so on. so that the atmosphere had begun to change, but i was, i kamisha and it was a fairly turbulent i was there about 9 months. it was a fairly turbulent, turbulent type, a thing that you find that, that in, as a, let's say, a voice of what might be termed liberal as lam, a finding it difficult for for western politicians or arrange a film across the parties. a to have a dialogue with, with even a, as in yourself,

a, an exponent of a, a liberal philosophy as well as lamb was a deeply frustrating that you couldn't get the communication you were looking for. i found it very frustrating. alex, because people saw me not as me, but this ami a m p as representing a government of military government, not to popular government. so i was in a sense squash between 2 systems which were not really understanding or taking advantage of the fact that i had been a scholar with the legitimacy i had but a platform. i had a voice in britain and they were ignoring batch and some to sing me, a symbolic of something that was at that stage vacant, racial and unpopular. and remember, 911 happened bucks and joined the western alliance and suddenly became a welcome part of the, the war on terror against the f. one people. but i might not time across one of your great projects or the general trilogy was what was taking place. it was at the

time that time that we met close for the for the 1st time. and when it was a, the, i think the film a part of the, the trilogy. we had a premier in the house of commons and, and was the novel. and of course the history is as well. how do you feel, looking back now, that initiative on jenna did? did you think that mileage to, to touch and get beyond the usual audience of people to understand a bit more about the, the background, the formation of the pakistani state, the, the tension sometimes between religion and state to that, that trilogy, achieve for you. what you hoped, alex, 1st of all, thank you for your support. you incredible. the support you gave me during those days. it was monumental task. remember, it had not been done. no one had done it before. i wanted to professional fin make, and yet i was determined that french i stood at a point where many, many different strengths combined. and i could pull it off and i threw myself into it as you know. so i was all over the place of traveling, raising funds,

getting world of actors and produce production companies and so on. and in the end we achieved it in the, in, i can say with pride that i consumed, completed it, and had to fill them out. the book out the document and it was due for a full projects of the contents of studies. so let's in one sense, each one of those, the projects dense with one section of society. so for the film, it was the general public. then i had an academic book for the academics than a documentary for more serious scholars, people interest in history and, and as you say, a comic book 1st one of the 1st and then now christopher lee, who played gina, i great english actor christopher lee was, was he, you have choices to him. when he was a great choice, we be a, put him in as jenna and we found that she was late on tuition and stuff. but some members of the public who had a reason to oppose oppose the fin project, not for sensible reasons, but again, personal reasons. but you know,

i think christian for me that god bless him throughout his life and to, to the end of his life in every interview, would say that my greatest role was that of jenna and the phone janai. he did a tremendous tribute, and he was terrific while we were filming, it was opposition. they were protest, and he would come with me and talk to people, and he would come people down and say, look, i'm here to pitch a beauty of great fonda, mr. janelle is one of the big men of history. so it really wasn't amazing experience. it was almost like a battery being conducted. remember, no one had made a film on jenna before this. remember that jenna is so i don't want you to a secret, but he's so respected by so many in bucks on the very ideal watching him on, on, on, on the screen. and by someone like christopher lee with directly and so on, was almost best for me. and what's the resistance to christopher lee? who as you rightly say,

proclaimed as one of his great roles of not his greatest role. it was that different from what see was the resistance been kinsley a playing gandhi and, and the tenants the film and what was something particular people wanted a pakistani actor to, to play the founder of the state. i wanted a very well established actor who can pull off the rule not simply hire someone who was pakistani or who was someone who belong to some tribal group, our family group. and we could push them as things often done in bucks. and we considered many, many actors i was in, corresponded with jeremy irons for example, like by him as an actor. but in the interest to really not only look the plot, but he was so enthusiastic, he really came in as you know, for all out. determined to not only act as you know, he would tell me this. he would say, just as jenna made back his son, i am going to make sure that this been on janelle will be completed if expect to

yet let you know, your career developed into academia and a succession of ivy league university is in the united states. so you will soon of starting that rule. i think one of your very 1st lectures was, was actually on the day of, of 911. so the, the enormous terrorist, a incident which is dictated so much of the last 20 years was actually happening as you were delivering one of your, your 1st lectures, post absolute van, except that when spotted, i was actually in class, i just joined the american university in washington d. c. and remember i'm coming from england via instant i was at princeton as a professor there for you. and suddenly i realized at that moment, but the students began to sort of almost disintegrate in my class. and then some of them said there's been an attack and i learned that there was a plane that flew into the pentagon and i realized then i really did because i had

this experience in the field to dealing with people in real life situations. i realized that this was the moment in the sense that my life had been leading up to . so i volved and i said all my experience in training and knowledge is going to be now dedicated to promoting understanding between the muslim birds and the non muslim world. because i knew the gaps would open up and they continued to open up. so there you are a moment on history as the most prominent a muslim academic and, and america, seeing that this was a, i moment for, for greater understanding of what was going on, will come to that to me. and the 2nd half of the sense of you ah, ah, rush is strategic patience with the west,

particularly with nato and the you appears to have come to an end. the west is hell bent on lecturing. moscow negotiating and dialoguing among equals hasn't been part of the equation for a very long time. the west is making a serious strategic error. welcome back. in conversation with world leading miss an anthropologist, professor, i'm, it was i the prospect their new understanding between the waste and this one. professor when i went there you were as prominent sir the most prominent muslim, i could have it much in demand of all the great talk shows as america was under doing this trauma a brought in to to testify at the senate healings and, and to decision makers in the white house and how, how did you get across, and how much understanding, how much knowledge were you able to impart on how much willingness did you find to,

to reception to that message. i would constantly constantly project my own ideas that in these tribal societies and for straightaway i said look to be up attacking of lunchtime we're going to going to iraq and is smiley. i'm human in all these societies and tribal societies are always sit and kind. you cannot treat them like you would be treating normal nation states. and in order to succeed in these societies, you must understand their culture and their traditions and been worked through them . and then create an alternative to just bombing them and joining them and so on. now i will say that while i was respected and people never were rude and then threw me out to these meetings. i was again, one man. in a meeting of age, people are 10 people with a different ideas. for example, in one of these meetings again i, this is the highest level. i was appalled to see that one of the academics who had

been called to advise on of venison actually suggested that we can throw cassettes, video cassettes of beam watch with pamela anderson. and the taliban would be so affected by this that they, they would lay down their arms. and i thought that was the most ridiculous thing. i tried. and i said that, and i'm sorry to say no one really responded to what i had said and allotted them nodded their heads in agreement with what was being said. so it was very frustrating that i, who had spent my lifetime with decent tribal societies, had something to say. and i was very often ordered by people who simply belong to a political patio. they had some kind of alliance with the decision makers. and in one of these presentations, the head of the troops in afghanistan responded a very encouragingly. he wasn't dismissing me. he said, how do you think we should move than if your thesis is correct? the testament of john pieces. how should we move ahead? how should we be dealing with these tribal societies?

how do we deal through elders to do we deal through the gusher, the young, the younger, a part of just society, which is challenging the end to part, which by the way, alex is happening in dublin right now. after the fall of god will you also have this tension between the l is the machine and the youngest, the younger elements? the question that's the classic confrontation which has been overlooked by people in the rest of that they don't understand this, this nuance. so yes, it was in a sense, exciting and, and to good for the ego. but on the other hand, also greatly frustrating that what a little advice i could get in. as i said, i was just one of the, many of scholars in people studying that area. who offering advice and that the advice wasn't really taken racist because had a range of publications advocating greater understanding between the, the islamic world in the western world. but you mentioned the ssl and the drone. i remember when i, when i sort of became fast, i assumed that the fossil might have

a connection with scotland because of you have great association with scotland as high commissioner and elsewhere. i wasn't altogether wrong about that was either the question of tribal society, the fiscal is tolstoy actually. but nonetheless that the connection, the tell us tell us idea behind so the draw when alex, you put your finger on it. it is from told stories, famous story about hygiene we're not told so is up in the mountains in the caucasus mon, to the, in the imperial russian army. and he sees a pistol on a walk. he's on a walk seasons to lafleur, tries to pluck it. and as you know, that because he has a little pony side to it and it picks him. and he then, from that begins to ruminate and say, the tribes here are somewhat like the to select the solid, beautiful, a track to the same time. if you try to just block them, they will fight back to pick you and discuss have of course use this as

a symbol of their own culture. and i'm a great admirer of the scots and that kind of chain that traditions. in fact, we have some family links with them, and my sister married to up of a noble family of the scots. and i found that the idea of the linda dawn had very strong links to the scott. i was of course, looking at the muslim world, and i was interested to see if you looked at the society not in terms of religion, but in terms of anthropological structures and traditions. and just then, yes, the scots are very much the classic tribal society was it all, scotts phrase, of course, which are fighting with scottish and english. a emblem says you can set an a rose, be kind of an official. and i think it's an advisable to try to practice and discuss what was that any response to st. louis the might be a better way than this all encompassing warren temp. well, you know, i mentioned a lot of these very senior, a distinguished americans who did respond to

a positively and i wasn't holding back up with that as a scholar. i wanted to be as fast as possible. i pointed out the strengths have been many, many strengths in american culture, american tradition, which are widely appreciated in the most important, for example, the education institutions, a promotion of knowledge and song. but i also pointed out that new unit on dead bodies in of understand or flush the quote on down the toilet. that is going to upset not only the taliban but all muslims, and then to create problems. people didn't pick that up. and recently, professor noam chomsky was considered now one of the leading of babs, leading american public intellectual. again talked of the cylinder and john and said this, that this is the book that should be read. now after the fall of gobble, because me make the same mistakes again and again. and he went into it in some detail as a piece to see that it isn't entirely a did

a did. i didn't turn in terms of the scholarship in that book. while this was going on, professor and how did it, what are your students a great form of communication that we're you testing the reaction on your classes at the american university was that guiding you on how you could get your, your message across. and the more widespread with well, you know, that again is a fascinating question because i didn't, i will, is act very much in the socratic tradition, which is that did my students with me in terms of dialogue, understanding, i don't forced knowledge down their throats, but presented to them and let them think for themselves. so when i began to formulate my, i've there of a few projects. i said look, let's go and look at them. wisdom well and see what's happening. be here, things about them on television way, often drawn stereotypes distortion. let's go and find out just others who come to me. and i had 4 really good students who accompanied me. just think of this alex at

the height of the war on terror. i. d. 's american students had to be traveled to the middle east to south asia to fight asia. we had even been able to, we have tv. the vision was shut up, then he was present bucksta. we had lunch with the prime minister box. and the students came back with incredible information and just wanted, which i put in my studies, and people would really be moved by that, that these a young americans looking at the same problems to fresh eyes. so here we are though 20 years later, the it wasn't panel has methods to pneumonia in the humiliating and bloody of the treat from cabal. chaotic. secondly, do you think that no mock saw another tumbling point, another tumbling page in history of bringing people to terms of how you must conduct a successful a relationship with the a slam. it will re, i guess,

in the one phase of the, one to the one base in deity. now look lanza, but we are seeing a very entering into a more dangerous even more i would say existentialist phase of world history. because we have the pandemic, we have climate change, and then we have this growing global confrontation, that shipping the one which is drawing in all the super policy. we have china versus the us. but the us now is alliance with india, with australia, japan, and the u. k and then also drawn in and the idea is to contain china and you see these very dangerous chinese flights over taiwan. you see american ships sailing in the south china seas and it reminds me of tentatively awfully nightmare scenario of the 1st world war which began if someone being shocked in sarajevo, that triggering reactions in this chain of unintended consequences would lead to the 1st one wall. and the 2nd one was connected and ended up by killing 100000000 people. unfortunately, in this case, if god forbid that ever came

a confrontation between america and china, it wouldn't be 100000000. it may be the end of life as we know it. but thankfully, we will sit, thankfully, that isn't by dint, as again the latest news is that he has been g r planning to on line, which will conference and the next couple of weeks. so there is a sense and hopefully sense will prevail. and finally, us, i'm an american site if it's nothing else, society of great hope. so and optimism. so when you, if you're teaching your students know, what can you offer that new generation and times of a glimmer of hope? some sunlight breaking through the forbidding clothes in terms of what the future may hold for then an extreme point because it is on the shoulders of this young generation. students who are now about 20 years old. and remember most of them up pro, post 911. so they don't know any word except a word of violence,

a wall decapitation of torture. when finally to for them we need to give some sense of hope and idealism. as you see, the classic american view of the world, which is really a very optimistic one. so i find that it's very useful to go back to the founding fathers. i find that there's nothing like an injection of washington jefferson, benjamin franklin, at a new nation, the dawn of an issue with these new ideas. and they are very exciting ideas. they're fresh ideas if come from the old world from europe, and they're going to create a new society based knowledge and fairness and justice in reaching out. and i know that there are some problems which they will deal with later down the road in history. but that vision, especially jefferson writing the declaration and the constitution very, very inspiring. and i find that the young generation really respond to that because right now they are facing that rather gloomy environment. there,

there are reports of mental health problems. at this lockdown. they have problems of suicide on these things are in society today, which are tricky to affect this natural optimism of america. and i find the best way to offset that is to remind them what america stands for and what is done. it can then project and give to the world because the world would appreciate that america arriving with the education schemes developing schemes. not driving with jones and besides and ways to tighten and exterminate local people. professor, that's what i meant. thank you so much for joining me, malik salmon show. thank you. thank you so much. i look. thank you. i'm to paula just way davis and examine decades. no, it's electro psycho way davis has been reflecting on the end of the medical century on the walls. consequences of american economic and political hedge money being

supplanted by the apparently an example rise of china against about close of the war on tedder, professor parameter provided a voice of reason. i reconciliation between the west. i'm this womic world. one aspect of that breakdown of understanding it's a dangerous psychology of collectively where entire communities, countries, or religions are blamed for the actions of. this was a poisonous campaign tactic so often exposed by president trump. never has this danger been more apparent than in recent days. in britain, when a hugely respected mp was murdered with the only suspect being someone of somali inheritance, but in reality, listens didn't kill so david amos, no more than break the tears murdered the libra mpg cox. in 2016, they were killed by individuals against the back cloth of increasingly toxic lexical discourse. thus,

the insight and understanding provided by professors we davis and i'm for, i'm, it's has never been more valuable or more important. but for now, from alex myself and all that issue, thank you for watching. stay safe. i'm hope to see you all again. next ah ah, ah, with ah,

president putin says he believes moderate conservatism to be the most reasonable policy approach. in today's turbulent world. that's in an hours long q and a at russia's vol, die destruction club for all my points of view. moderate conservatism seems to be the most reasonable policy for the upcoming time period of re imagining the world and it lost some time as the final design is on non course, this policy is going to inevitably change lack of supply disruption and staff shortages ahead across the u. s. a bleak warning from the federal reserve, but president biden refuses to accept responsibility. instead he's claiming his predecessor and rival republicans and tempers at fray between the you and members state poland.