a come to so if you go visionaries, me sophie schubert knox and the earth is population is growing and so is the demand for food will be able to sustain the planet when there will be twice as many of us and not completely destroy the environment. well, today i talk to a man who has presented the 1st lab grow hamburger to the world, professor of vascular physiology of last east university mark past professor bus. it's really great her in our program today. welcome. thank you. so a lot of questions regarding meet some say artificial made some say it's really anyways, let's start for from where we said last. yes. okay, so let's start with a simple question, i guess, for the dummies. how does making or growing meat in a lab work? you take a cell sample from a cow, you bring it to a lab, put it in a,

by a reactor, feet necessary new trends and liquids and then what? right, well, that's pretty much it. so you can take a sample from a cow, you're extract this themselves from that sample. so every muscle has themselves and they are sitting there to repair tissue and they can provide, they can pull the freight so they can divide many, many times. um and then because these are muscle specifics themselves, they already kind of know how to make muscle tissue. so you let them proliferate until you have many, many cells. then you let them make that tissue. and then after 3 weeks, you harvest that tissue and you put it in the handbook we take from any muscle or in a particular can pretty much take it from any most. yes. so how does the whole, how do you synthesize an intrinsic? basically, what do you see that is, do you feel like natural nutrients to the cell that you're growing, or is it something synthetic? also, no, it's natural nutrients. it's sugars, amino acids,

builds proteins or vitamins minerals a fatty acid and that's it. so it's all natural ingredients, and they can all be source from plants. because i'm thinking when you like regular food, you have b for chicken there, it's erin antibiotics and all those things like look prettier and bigger and then you have free range. so if we talk about your meat, your lab made, which category does it fall into? well, yeah, some people call it clean, neat because you know exactly what's in dairy, you can control it. so no antibiotics or no, no other kind of ingredients that shouldn't be in there. so you can exactly control it and there's no contamination, of course, because bacteria can never get into this system. um and yeah, so those are the so i would actually call it more organic, but of course it's made in the lab. not in the fields. do you have any control over the way actually taste?

i mean, can you take away all the cancer causing things that are in regular mead or excuse me, with like any taste to you? me keep. yeah. of course the way you want. yeah. i mean, taste is something you have to realize that all the hamburgers that you have ever eat are flavored. so flavors are added to it am, and we're going to do exactly the same. so you add kind of a hamburger of flavor to it. that's what you already do with regular meat. so we're going to do flavors or at the exactly the ones that are used in the kitchens of restaurants. yes. same place or in the manufacturer of hamburgers from regular meat . can you also add like extra vitamins or i don't know, so when you for she gas like super. yeah. are you? yeah. you can and you talked about the cancer and your to health risks with eating too much meat. one is risk for cardiovascular disease that comes from the saturated fatty acids in the fat m. we of course,

plan to make fat tissue. we're also making fat tissue. and the cells actually can make an unsaturated fatty acids. so they, they can do that and we have find a way to do that. and then that me to sexual health care for you. the other risk is a slightly increased risk for colorectal cancer. i am in regular meat, irregular in regular maintenance is so if you eat a lot of meat, that's why to wealth health organization came with a recommendation that you should not eat more than 300 grams of red meat per week, which is not a lot for 300 grams yet, feel grams per week. so it's about a week and a half. yeah, for a whole week, i'm that death component in red meat that causes that increased risk for colorectal cancer is actually

unknown. so as long as that is not really well known, we cannot fix it. and one of the components that has been incriminated is am myoglobin, which is a red which of colors the meet red. yeah, because it's red meat that causes this increased risk. and fortunately, we can exactly determine how much of that myoglobin we want to have in that meat because it's dependent on at which oxygen level through a culture. and then if it's like a certain level of myoglobin, they wouldn't be any risks to a human house. yeah, so what, i'm actually fine with that recommendation of 300 grams of red meat per week. i am the lower at all. why did you even start? i am eat lower. yeah. who are? yes, but i don't need you to live really a lot. i could, i could work with 300 grams. okay. so when you started doing that initially to

cheat, what like, how did it happen? he woke up one morning and like i went on, this is ground need in the lab and i are ortega unfortunately, it's not that romantic. yeah, we know the idea of doing this is already very old. winston churchill actually refers to within 1932 am and in the netherlands in 2004 or something. there was a guy who stood up and said roo should do this. we should not no longer talk about it, just do it. he was not a scientist, so he had to recruit a couple of scientists to start working on this and, and i was eventually even took it out of 2 years because before i became part of it, and then i thought, well, this actually great idea mostly 40 environment, ma'am, let's pursue this for on this. so you're saying a single cell could produce up to 10000 kilograms of meat. so it's like, i don't know, one cow is enough for a strategy or something like that has like will. well,

that's because the cells has a tremendous replicated capacitor, and they can divide many, many times. and if you do the calculations that are currently we are not that that stage yet. but if you do the calculations, if you get, if every cell doubles 40 times, it's like kind of an exponential curve. so after 40 doublings, you have like 10000 kilos just theoretically, how long to get there? well, the 1st kind of products i think will be on the market in 22 and a half years from now, like i'm talking about when one car can actually be enough for a country. i don't know. it's currently we calculate that from half a gram of tissue that we take from macau we can make 2000 cubans. so that's already kind of a big step up. and you can,

you can take multiple samples from macau, but that would not get you to one cow for entire failure. you have to step up from there. yeah. so, but that's actually, that's only 5 or 6 bubbling more to get there. so we are now at $32.00 if we are around $43840.00 we already there. so when we talk about lab grown meat, we're only talking about hamburgers and as of now. but i mean, it was taste are very diverse. not everyone is a hamburger like ourselves, they will want to stay and see les and all that like a tea, but can you make a, maybe not to day, but theoretically a meat like a t bone steak? yes. theoretically, we can to make an ad. the meet we do, we're mincemeat them. you rely on the self organization of those cell service though cells can make a tissue. you have to help them a little bit,

but then they can make a tissue. but there's a limit to how large they can be. am so that's for minced meat, it's fine for hamburgers and for me balls it's fine to make a steak. you need to do 3 more things. one is to impose a larger 3 d structure on those cells. otherwise they just make their small thing to you after a larger and that's where like printing comes in 3 d printing bio materials. you need to culture muscle cells and fet cells. exactly the same condition. currently we do that separately, and most importantly, you need a channel system to get the old a nutrients and oxygen in all the right places. that's why you and i have blood vessels am. but if we make this into a meat products, we need to have a similar thing like blood vessels to make sure that all these nucleotides and oxygen are distributed evenly throughout the. but i mean,

ultimately you would strive for that, right? yes. all kinds of meat products. absolutely. korean lab. yeah. so once those hamburgers start rolling off the conveyor belt and we start making developing steaks right now, you're only going be for, can you do the same with the chief in a report or yes. and in fact, some people are doing that and some other companies worldwide working a lot of pork, chicken duck fish, and same thing, same principle. so when you real me right, you can either go for this like super tasty a, a plus plus plus argentinean meet say, or you can just have steak, right? and you, you can tell the difference because it is different, right? what we talking about like your lab and eventually making all my products wooded, only taste like the top notch argentinian sake. are you going to have gradations oh as well. and well you,

you can make it any way you want. am what i think is an advantage of this technology and not many people see it as a real advantage is that you can make it the same every time you can make it kind of standardized. and it sounds boring, but most people want to have some predictability of what they buy when you get it from the supermarket here in the middle. and we have meet as a byproduct of dairy, sort of cows are already pretty old. when we get to meet and there's no predictability of what the quality of our media is like in argentina, there is, but here in the netherlands, there's not, i don't know how it is in russia, but here it's thought. and i personally hate that i want at least if i pay a lot of money for sake, i want it to be good. i don't mind paying a lot of money for it, but i, i need to be sure that it's okay. um and if it's not good, i'm really disappointed. so i think this kind of guaranteed quality that you can

deliver is a big plus. a hamburger that is lack grown is around $1000.00. now, when expensive, why? coachman? yeah. because, well, there's really gonna weigh this, i don't know. there's a good reason for that. it's the current. so this is in essence and medical technology that we're using. so all the ingredients that we use, like that, i mean no acid dead, the nutrients are far my great. they are made for the pharmaceutical industry and that's why it's really expensive. and in the end, it's just sugar and amino acids and a couple of natural components. so if you source them from a different source and not a medical source, it becomes a lot cheaper for. so then take a short break right now. well, we're back. we'll continue talking to mark cost a man who presented the thirst lab grown hamburger to the world. stay with us. ah

ah, when i see black america lesson part of myself, i was growing young. black american spoke to me when what australia did not have those who say black marsh matter is a movement we are importing from america. no, nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where wide lives mattered. and i was not wide like ms. newman and i wasn't new from black america. i learned how to speak back to whiteness. aboriginal people around no, every day were up loaded system. now with the police were out with

t states. i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then there are other fellow friends in daycare ah, he died. i cried. and i just kind of split the whole time out there. no one really thought anything different. knew the salt. i just didn't feel good on the way for the surgery, his lungs failed. thirty's jackets. when i killed him, i had gotten stuck with so many needles that day in 2019 talk to started talking

about a new wide spread disease that caused severe lung damage. there's a few points that were really to turn all of the patients were diagnosed with a lung injury associated with using electronic cigarettes or vapor products. he pulled this out if you really felt holy crap, his him died. oh no, he's the better it was. i wouldn't want my worst enemy ever go through that. it was smell of breath and were back with mark paused a man who presented the 1st lap ron hamburger to the world,

talking about the prospect of having all lap groan meet in the future professor. but when you say that in the next 23 years or less in say, next decade, black grow meet is going to be basically market competitive. are you sure that you gonna be able to make that in the quantities so that it can compete with a meat that's out there? right, well, that's a, that's a challenge because it's a huge industry of course and to, to start building those factories. and you know, the buy a reactors and all that stuff will be a big, big enterprise. um, now of course this will gradually grow and mind you to get to that massive acceptance and massive consumption. and it also meets the price needs to be low. and people need to massively accept, i think there will, we will see

a transition period, both from a consumer acceptance point of view as from a production point of view. and hopefully that will kind of go in parallel, and we are not, it's not our goal to become the biggest hamburger producer in the world. so we eventually license out this technology to companies who are building those factories and are also starting also like a wonder why it takes so long to actually have this out there already for people who are willing to taste it or eat it because this whole leavin meets thing is wooing right now. why mean that, that company beyond the meat like year ago, i went to the i p o it was i think estimate over $13000000000.00. and i mean, i have tasted and hamburger made of meat that was made out of peace and i couldn't tell a difference. i mean, once i'd known that it was not really maybe out of been yeah, i can see that it's not really, but i didn't know and i had no clue and it was so good. so wise at that,

that's out there already and we're eating it. and buying it and experiencing experimenting, and then this is still like in the lab and to 3 years maybe and maybe a 10 years. why is it so different in terms of getting it out there for hamburgers? i think that's fine. i have not seen and it will also be very difficult to make a proper stake. i'm from a plan based a tech trist protein. it's very, very difficult to do and to be honest, i don't think it can be done. and so they, they will not be able to make the whole product line if you like. and there's one company out there just who develops plan based products like mayonnaise in egg and, and actually went in to culturing week because they also single. they cannot get all the way with their plan base funds. you can become vegetarian to morrow. and

even without plan based meet substitute you can become vegetarian a lot of people do that. um but it's still a small minority. it's less than 5 percent of the population who is registering at least of the population who can afford to meet them. and so apparently it's something that is hard wired within us to crave for a meat. and vegetarian products are not going to quite satisfied it in the same way . right. so when we're talking about mass production with the lap produced, meet, i'm thinking it's completely tangible and doable when we're talking about i don't know, netherlands, or any european country or america, but then the meat market is really blooming mostly in 3rd world countries. right. and do you still, do you see like a lamb lab may need straight stalling mom by somewhere?

well, mom buys it good example because that's a big mediating kind of island in india. m. and of course in india eating beef is not a uncommon things. are they called buffalo or something? and it is for centrally similar. i'm but yeah, they're, india is kind of slow in taking this up. china is now getting nearer south korea has been there already for a long time. and so i see yes, these countries, and of course we're in china. it's helped by m, you know, the flu in the flu epidemic into pigs, africa, flu. lemme so these big developing nations with a big kind of increase in mid consumption in the near, in the next 30 years. they are going to adopt this. i'm pretty sure. so you're saying this is very much market compatible. wedding, like i'm going to say

a decade, not even like writers, but people um aren't always keen to accept things, some things that is artificial when they hear it for you. so let's say we have on the same shelf in a restaurant, lab grown hamburger and a hamburger for it from a real beef and it same price. you really think people are going to go for the one that slap. well, of course, of course, because well 1st of all, no one he still has them. i have like a break and then too i choose that. right. am ok. so i would the reason why i think they will choose for it because i am everybody who eats meat. maybe not every but a lot of people who eat meat actually have a little bit of a problem with that because they know by now, if you are, you know, we to use papers. it is greenhouse gas emission associated to it that me, i was slaughterhouses are not the most clean areas were that you can find that animals have to be killed for it. and quite frankly,

our ethics are gradually moving towards not being so comfortable any more that animals are killed for our purpose. that's why the vegetarian vegan movements do actually come up am. and so we have always been able to push that in sort of a far dark corner of our conscious because there were no alternatives. once there are alternatives, you can no longer do that and you have to kind of accept, oh, yet for that an animal has been killed and oh yeah, act as greenhouse gas emission. and here we have essentially the same product. um, same price, same quality with none of those features. oh yeah, it's made in the lab and that in the beginning is scary, but in the end it's not producing maybe like in 2030 years time, we're gonna only be able to eat real hamburger. so real stakes in the super secret places and late, it's going to be super expensive. yes. that again, if at all you can see if you would still be allowed by our governments to eat that

. mind you in the middle in europe and some food products have been banned for the mark from the market based on animal welfare. well flung, grind, manhattan, for instance, well gra, fur is getting there. and caged eggs are no longer allowed in the you. just on the basis of animal welfare. so at some point, when you have a credible alternatives, add to regulatory agencies or the government's has a tendency to step in this at all. we now we can no longer allow that. but who is it that has to be like in charge of telling people guys, we should really try our best because right now, still people are really craving everything natural, whether it's food or leather or, or organic food or whatever you want to when they hear lab me right for them. i mean, i told you before the interview in america,

they call it frank and me not the most flattering thing ever, but right now that's the case. yeah. so how do you sort of which is historically correct. ok, sure. i think you're worried, but right now that's how it's called right. so how do you get rid of that sort of disdain? 2 words to laugh, mate, who is to who used to be in charge. you professor who is actually doing this or present of america and russia like who? well this is, this is going to be a if you now look at the surveys, the sort of their market surveys, if you like, which is still kind of preliminary am the acceptance of these, hypo foods is, is actually increasing. and not only in the u. s. but also in europe, in india, china towards about 50 percent of the people saying, oh yeah we, we see this coming and we accept that this will come. that doesn't mean that in the supermarket they're going to buy. that's a different thing. and so it will require some marketing, it will require,

you know, storytelling. it may actually require very small scale micro brewery type of manufacturing units that you can visit on sundays, said that you can see how it's being made. so you kind of familiarize yourself with, with this process we are so you did, i don't know pain, right? yeah, yeah. but you know, i'm, my example is in the metal loads and you probably don't know that we have a sausage sausage here in the netherlands. that's called the 2nd bill. i don't think i'm then right. okay. i don't need it, but i know it right well, but we have a specific one here in the middle of and in belgium. ad it's very, very popular. nobody knows what's in it. nobody wants to know what's even do i know what i right i, i know it's it, it, it is actually a decent product. there's nothing wrong with the brother. the fact is that are all

sorts of horror stories of what's in that product and nobody actually wants to really know what's in it. so we are perfectly capable of eating things that we don't exactly know how it's being made or what it is, as long as it taste good. as long as it tastes good, as long as you develop over time. and he does a time over time develop trust in that product because you see other people eat it and they're fine. right? and then eventually we are biologically program not to eat things that we don't know right. you go into the forest and you pick mushrooms and you make a soup out of it and you don't know what you're doing. you have a 95 percent chance that you're pushing yourself. so it's, it's a very natural program not to eat stuff that you don't know, am, and for every new food that comes onto the market, you have that same issue that you have to tell what it is you have to explain. you

have to kind of make its m appetizing and, and, and start somewhere. and then of course, this is such a nice story to tell that we already have a lot of early adopters who say, well yeah, course i, i, i think this is a great idea. i want to eat em. and then the rest rolls slowly. just final question, do you think if this really take self and you probably will write farmers or them completely out of their jobs? i mean, cuz it's going to start with a meat, but then it's eventually gonna become milk because we're taking milk away from the count basie and cheese. so there's gonna be no such thing as farmer in the future right or wrong. and there may not be as many kettle form or dairy farm, but hopefully there are still farmers who make all the ingredients to grow army. right. the ingredients come from p's from corn, from wheat, from soybeans,

and they still need to be grown. m. a farmers are entropy, norwich, right? what they do in essence is extract value from their mat. my neighbor used to be a pig farmer. he no longer could make money with pigs and he switched to potatoes. so he now uses his land to grow potatoes and he loves his potatoes even better than his pigs because they bring money to the table a i have to kill anyway and, and you don't have to kill it. and it's not a smelly and it has all sorts of advantages. so um, you know, i was recently addressing $400.00 pic farmers in minnesota in the winter and, and they were all looking at took pictures of those by a reactors in a nicely heater room. and they were thinking of the other day when they were shoveling manure at minus 20 degrees, you know, which labor is nice. yeah,

i agree. yeah. right. so thanks a lot for this insight and good luck with everything you're doing. again, hopefully we'll meet sooner rather than later. so i can tell you that hamburger, right? not letting me face it here in the lab, but you're right. let me take a ah russia strategic patience with the west, particularly with nato and the you appears to have come to an end. the west is hell bent on lecturing. moscow negotiating and dialoguing among equals has had been part of the equation for a very long time. the west is making a serious strategic error if

it's a splits exposed of an e. u summit says li, just about poland obeys european rulings. but walter insists the pluralism, respected moscow says it's not surprised by aggressive rhetoric from nato states after germany calls for nuclear weapons to be deployed near russia's borders. people's tribunal in london tries alleged u. s. war crimes and an active support for wiki makes whistleblower julian assigned to washington once extradited from the u. k. sites editor in chief says allegations of a cia plot to kennesaw proves his case has been politicized. and the recent revelation shows serve with any adults to the political elements of the case because to be on songs and we have all.