welcome to sophie, go visionaries, me sophie shepard. not sam. the ursus population is growing and so as to demand for food will be able to sustain the planet when there will be twice as many of us and not completely destroy the environment. well, today i talk to a man who has presented the 1st lab grow hamburger to the world, professor of last killer physiology of my university mark past. professor 1st is truly great her in our program today. welcome. i guess. so a lot of questions regarding meet some say artificial meet some say it's really anyways, let's start for from last yes. okay. so let's start with the simplest question i guess for the dummy. how does making or growing meet in a lab work? you take a cell sample from macau, you bring into a lab putting a by a reactor, the necessary new trans liquids and then what, right, well,

this pretty much it so you can take a sample from macau, your extract the stem cells from that sample. so every muscle has themselves and they are sitting there to repair tissue and they can provide, they can pull a freight so they can divide many, many times. and then because these are muscle specifics themselves, they already kind of know how to make muscle tissue. so you let them fall right until you have many, many cells. then you let them make that tissue. and then after 3 weeks, you harvest that tissue and you put the number you take from any muscle or in particular you can pretty much take it from any muscle. yes. so how does the whole, how do you synthesize the neutral? like basically what do you see that is do you feel like natural nutrients to the cell that you are growing or is it something synthetic? also, no, it's natural nutrients. it's sugars, amino acids to build proteins, vitamins minerals a fatty acid and that's it. so it's all natural ingredients,

and they can all be source from plants. because i'm thinking when you like regular food, you have beef or chicken there, it's erin antibiotics and all those things are like, look prettier and bigger, and then you have free range. so if we talk about your meat, your lab, me, which category does it fall into? well, yeah, some people call it clean, neat because you know exactly what's in dairy, you can control it. so no antibiotics and no, no water kind of ingredients that shouldn't be in there. so you can exactly control it and there's no contamination, of course, because bacteria can never get into this system. um and yeah, so those are the so i would actually call it more organic, but of course it's made in the lab, not in the fields. do you have any control over the way actually taste and can you take away out the cancer causing things that are in regular mead or infuse

meet with like any taste to you may keep. yeah. of course the way you want. yeah, i mean, taste is something a you have to realize that all the hamburgers that you have ever eaten are flavor. so flavors are added to it am, and we're going to do exactly the same. so you add kind of a hamburger of flavor to it. that's what you already do with regular meat. so we're going to do flavors or at the exactly the ones that are used in the kitchens of restaurants. yes. same place or in the manufacturer of hamburgers from regular meat . can you also add like extra vitamins or i don't know, so when you force you can like super. yeah. are you? yeah, you can and you talked about the cancer a day or 2 health risks with eating too much meat. one is risk for cardiovascular disease that comes from the saturated fatty acids in the fat am we of course,

and to make that tissue were also making fat tissue. and the cells actually can make an unsaturated fatty acids. so they, they can do that and we have find a way to do that and then meet the sexual health care for you. the other risk is a slightly increased risk for colorectal cancer. i'm in regular, meet in regular, in regular maintenance is. so if you eat a lot of meat, that's why to will help organisation came with a recommendation that you should not eat more densely, our grams of red meat per week, which is not a lot for 300 grams yet, feel grams per week. so it's about a week and a half. yeah, for a whole week and the death component in red meat that causes that increased risk for colorectal cancer is actually unknown. so as long as that's not really well known,

we cannot fix it. and one of the components that has been incriminated is am myoglobin, which is a red which of colors the meet red. yeah. because it's red meat that causes this increased risk. and fortunately, we can exactly determine how much of that myoglobin we want to have in that meat because it's dependent on at which oxygen level through a culture. and then if it's like a certain level of myoglobin, they wouldn't be any risks to a human house. yeah, so what i'm actually fine with that recommendation of 300 grams of read me per week . i you me love her at all. why did you even star, do i ever meet laura? yes, you are. yes. but i don't need you to live really a lot. i could, i could work with. we have a grabs. okay. so when you started doing that initially to cheat, wake up. how did it happen? you woke up one morning and like why on the ground need him to lab in or,

or to unfortunately, it's not that romantic. yeah, we have no. the idea of doing this is already very old. winston churchill actually refers to within 1932 am and in the netherlands in 2004 or something. there was a guy who stood up and said, we should do this. we should not no longer talk about it, just do it. he was not a scientist, so he had to recruit a couple of scientists to start working on this and, and i was eventually even didn't get out of 2 years because before i became part of it, and then i thought, well, was actually great idea, mostly 40 environment, i'm, let's pursuits for on this. so you're saying a single cell could produce up to 10000 kilograms of meat. so it's like, i don't know, one cow is enough for a strategy or something like that. well, that's because the cells have

a tremendous replicated capacitor. they can divide many, many times. and if you do the calculations that are currently we are not that that stage yet. but if you do the calculations, if you get, if every cell doubles 40 times, it's like kind of an exponential curve. so after 40 doublings, you have like 10000 kilos just theoretically, how long to get there? well, the 1st kind of products i think will be on the market in 22 and a half years from now. but like i'm talking about when one car can actually be enough for a country. i don't know. it's currently we calculate that from half a gram of tissue that we take from macau, we can make 2000 cubans. so that's already kind of a big step up. you can, you can take multiple samples from macau,

but that would not get you to one cow for entire failure. you have to step up from there. yeah. so, but that's actually, that's only 5 or 6 bubbling more to get there. so we are now at $32.00 if we are around $43840.00 we already there. so when we talk about lab grown meets we're only talking about hamburgers as of now. but i mean, it was taste are very diverse. not everyone is a hamburger like ourselves, they will want to stay and he lay and all that like a tea, but can you make a, maybe not to day, but theoretically a meat like a t bone steak? yes. theoretically, we can to make a, the meet we do, we're mincemeat m. you rely on the self organization of those cell service. though cells can make a tissue, you have to help them a little bit, but then they can make a tissue. but there's

a limit to how large they can be am. so that's for minced meat, it's fine for hamburgers and for me balls, it's fine. to make a steak, you need to do 3 more things. one is to impose a larger 3 d structure on those cells, otherwise they just make their small thing to you after a larger and that's where like printing comes in 3 d printing bio materials. you need to culture muscle cells and fet cells. exactly the same condition. currently we do that separately, and most importantly, you need a channel system to get the old nutrients and oxygen in all the right places. that's why you and i have blood vessels am. but if we make this into a meat products, we need to have a similar thing like blood vessels to make sure that all these nucleotides and oxygen are distributed evenly throughout the. but i mean, ultimately you would strive for that, right?

yes. all kinds of meat products. absolutely. korean lab. yeah. so once those hamburgers start rolling off the conveyor belt and we start making developing steaks right now, you're only going be for, can you do the same chief in a report or yes. and in fact, some people are doing that, and some other companies worldwide are working a lot of pork, chicken, duck, fish, and same thing, same principle. so when you real me right, you can either go for this like super tasty a, a plus plus, plus argentinean meet say, or you can just have steak, right? and you, you can tell the difference because it is different, right? what we talking about like your lab and eventually making all my products would only taste like the top notch argentinian sake. are you going to have gradations? oh as well. i'm well you, you can make it any way you want. am what i think is an advantage of this

technology and not many people see it as a real advantage is that you can make it the same every time you can make it kind of standardize. and it sounds boring, but most people want to have some predictability of what they buy when you get it from the supermarket here in the middle. and we have meet as a byproduct of very sort of cows are already pretty old. when we get to meet and there is no predictability of what the quality of our media is like in argentina areas, but here in the netherlands, there's not, i don't know how it is in russia, but here it's thought. and i personally hate that i want at least if i pay a lot of money for sake, i want it to be good. i don't mind paying a lot of money for it, but i, i need to be sure that it's okay. um and if it's not good, i'm really disappointed. so i think this kind of guaranteed quality that you can deliver is a big plus. a hamburger that is lack grown is around $1000.00. now. wow.

expensive. why chokes me? yeah. because, well, there's been going away this, i don't know about. there's a good reason for that. it's the current. so this is in essence and medical technology that we're using. so all the ingredients that we use, like that mino acid dead. the nucleus are far my great, they are made for the pharmaceutical industry and that's why it's really expensive . and in the end it's just sugar and amino acids and a couple of natural components. so if you source them from a different source and not a medical source, it becomes a lot cheaper for. so then take a short break right now. well, we're back. we'll continue talking to mark cost a man who presented the thirst lab grown hamburger to the world. stay with us. with

blue, with join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. i'll be speaking to guess from the world politics sport, business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then ah the

ah and were rag with mark paused a man who presented the 1st lap ron hamburger to the we're all talking about the prospect cells. having all lab grown meet in the future professor. but when you say that in the next 23 years, or whatever, and say, next decade lap gro meet is going to be basically market competitive. are you sure that you gonna be able to make that in the quantities so that it can compete with me? that's out there. right, well, that's a bad, that's a challenge because it's

a huge industry of course and to, to start building those factories and you know, the, the bio reactors and all that stuff will be a big, big enterprise. and now of course, this will gradually grow and mind you to get to that massive acceptance and massive consumption. it also needs the price needs to be low, and people need to massively accept i think there will, we will see a transition period, both from a consumer acceptance point of view as from a production point of view. and hopefully that will kind of go in parallel and we are not, it's not our goal to become the biggest hamburger producer in the world. so we eventually license out this technology to companies who are building those factories and are also starting also like i wonder why it takes so long to actually

have this out there already for people who are willing to taste it or eat it because this whole leadin meets thing is wooing right now. i mean that, that company beyond the meat like year ago, i went to the i p o it was i think, estimate over $13000000000.00. and i mean, i've tasted and hamburger made of meat that was made out of piece, and i couldn't tell the difference. i mean, if i'd known that it was not real late, may be able to mean yeah, i can see that it's not really, but i didn't know and i had no clue and it was so good. so why is it that that's out there already, and we're eating it and buying it and experiencing experimenting. and then this is still like in the lab and to 3 years maybe and maybe a 10 years. why is it so different in terms of getting it out there for hamburgers, i think that's fine. i have not seen and it will also be very difficult to make a proper stake. am from a plan based

a tech trist protein. it's very, very difficult to do and to be honest, i don't think it can be done. and so they, they will not be able to make the whole product line if you like. and there's one company out there just who develops plan based products like mayonnaise, an egg and, and actually went into culturing meat because they also single. they cannot get all the way with their plan base funds. you can become vegetarian tomorrow and even without plan based meet substitute you can become vegetarian a lot of people do that ma'am, but it's still a small minority. it's less than 5 percent of the population who is french. terry, at least of the population who can afford to meet them and so apparently it's something that is hard wired within us to crave for a meet and vegetarian products are not going to quite satisfied that in the same

way. right. so when we're talking about mass production with the lap produced, meet, i'm thinking it's completely tangible and doable when we're talking about i don't know, netherlands, or any european country or america, but then the meat market is really blooming mostly in 3rd world countries. right. i mean, do you still, do you see like a lamb lab may need street stall in mom by somewhere? well, mobil isaac good example, because that's a big mediating kind of island in india. m. and of course in india, eating beef is not a uncommon things. are they called buffalo or something? and it is for centrally similar. i'm but yeah, they're, india is kind of slow in taking this up. the china is now getting nearer south korea. been there already for a long time. and so i see yes,

these countries and of course were in china. it's help by m, you know, the flu in the flu epidemic into pigs african flu. i'm. so when these big developing nations with a big kind of increase in mid consumption in the near, in the next 30 years, they are going to adopt this. i'm pretty sure. so you're saying this is very much market compatible within like i'm gonna say a decade, not even like writers. but people um aren't always keen to accept things. some things that is artificial when they hear it for you. so let's say we have on the same shelf, in a restaurant, lab grown hamburger and a hamburger from for it, from a real beef and it same price. you really think people are going to go for the one that slap. well, of course, of course, because well 1st of all, so many steer has been my had

a break and then to i choose that right. am. okay, so i would the reason why i think they will choose for it because i am everybody who eats meat. well, maybe not every, but a lot of people who eat meat actually have a little bit of a problem with that because they know by now, if you are, you know, we to use papers, it is greenhouse gas emission associated to it. that me, i was slaughterhouses are not the most clean areas were that you can find that animals have to be killed for it. and quite frankly, our ethics are gradually moving towards not being so comfortable any more that animals are killed for our purpose. that's why the vegetarian v can movements do actually come up m. and so we have always been able to push that in sort of a far dark corner of our conscious because there will no alternatives. once there are alternative, if you can no longer do that and you have to kind of accept, oh yes, for that, an animal has been killed. and oh, yes,

there's greenhouse gas emission. and here we have essentially the same product, same price, same quality with none of those features. oh yeah, it's made in the lab. and that in the beginning is scary. but in the end, it's not seducing. maybe like in 2030 years time, we're gonna only be able to eat real hamburger. so real stakes in the super secret places and like, it's going to be super expensive. yes. that if at all you can't, if you would still be allowed by our governments to eat that mind you in the middle in europe and some food products have been banned for the mark from the market based on animal welfare. well flung ryan manhattan, for instance, a gra, fur is getting their cage the eggs are no longer allowed into you just on the basis of animal welfare. so at some point where you have

a credible alternatives and the regulatory agencies, or the governments have a tendency to step in and say, well, we now we can no longer allow that. but who is it that has to be like in charge of telling people guys, we should really try our best because right now, still people are really craving everything natural, whether it's food or leather or, or organic food or whatever you want. so when they hear lab me right for them, i mean i told you before the interview in america, they call it frank and me not the most flattering thing ever, but right now that's the case. yeah. so how do you sort of which is historically correct. okay, sure, i think you're worried about right now. that's how it's called right. so how do you get rid of that sort of disdain? 2 words to lab mate who is to who used to be in charge. you professor who is actually doing this or present america and russia like, whoa, well this is, this is going to be a if you now look at the surveys,

the sort of their market surveys, if you like, which is still kind of preliminary am the acceptance of these hypo foods is, is actually increasing and not only in the u. s, but also in europe in india, china, and towards about 50 percent of the people saying, oh yeah we, we see this coming and we accept that this will come. that doesn't mean that in the supermarket, they are going to buy. that's a different thing. and so it will require some marketing. it will require, you know, storytelling. it may actually require very small scale micro brewery type of manufacturing units that you can visit on sundays said that you can see how it's being made. so you kind of familiarize yourself with, with this process we are. so you did, i don't know pain, right? yeah, yeah, but you know, i'm,

my example is in the netherlands and you probably don't know that, but we have a sausage sausage here in the netherlands. that's called the fica though. i don't think i'm them right. okay. yeah, i don't need it, but i know it right well, but we have a specific one here in the netherlands and in belgium ad, it's very, very popular. nobody knows what's in it. nobody wants to know what's even do i know what's in lab. all right, i, i know what is it if it is actually a decent product, there's nothing wrong with the broader. the fact is that are all sorts of horror stories of what's in that product and nobody actually wants to really know what's in it. so we are perfectly capable of eating things that we don't exactly know how to being made or what it is, as long as it tastes good. as long as he tastes good, as long as you develop over time, and he does a time over time develop trust in that product because you see other people eat it

and they're fine. right? and then eventually we are biologically programmed, not to eat things that we don't know. right. if you go into the forest and you pick mushrooms and you make a soup out of it and you don't know what you're doing, you have a 95 percent chance that you're pushing yourself. so it's, it's a very natural program not to eat stuff that you don't know am. and for every new food that comes on to the market, you have that same issue that you have to tell what it is you have to explain. you have to kind of make it's an appetizing and, and start somewhere. and then of course, this is such a nice story to tell that we already have a lot of early adopters who say, well, yeah, course i, i, i think this is a great idea. i want to eat em and then the rest will slowly. just final question, do you think if this really take self and you probably will,

farmers are going to be completely out of their jobs. i mean, because it's gonna start with a meat, but then it's eventually gonna become milk because we're taking milk away from the companies and she is. so there's going to be no such thing as farmer in the future right or wrong. and there may not be as many cattle farms or dairy farmer, but hopefully they are still farmers who make all the ingredients to grow our meat . right. the ingredients come from peas from corn, from wheat, from soybeans, and they still need to be grown. m a farmer's r and to pronounce right what they do in essence is extract value from down that my neighbor used to be a pig farmer. he no longer could make money with pigs and he switched to potatoes. so he now uses his land to grow potatoes and he loves his potatoes even better than

his pigs because they bring money to the table a i have to kill any wife and, and you don't have to kill it. and it's not a smelly and it has all sorts of advantages. so um, you know, i was recently addressing $400.00 pic farmers in minnesota in the winter and, and they were all looking at pictures of those by a reactor is in a nicely heater room. and they were thinking of the other day when they were shoveling manure at minus 20 degrees, you know which labor is nice. yeah, i agree. yeah. professor, thanks a lot for this insight and good luck with everything you're doing. again, hopefully we'll meet sooner rather than later. so i can take that hamburger. right . not letting me face it here in the lab, but you're right. where do we take that? no. i think fortunately.

oh, when i see black america, i see part of my so when i was growing up like america spoke to me, why destroyed you did not. those who say black lives matter is a movement we are importing from america. know nothing of who we are. i lived in a world where white lives mattered, and i was not why like mission. and i wasn't known from black america. i learned how to speak back to whitefish aboriginal people around loyalty di. we're out now with the police. we're out with. she speaks, i'm scared that more children are going to grow up in the country that think says

no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system. then they're all the filler friends in daycare that longer they putting additional money to household and that the additional money goes to children, education and welfare off the household and then terminate cost savings. and if a country as a savings, if can improve itself and produce growth, i think that they'll say that. but they must us for this moment to be included in the household so that the household income will be higher and the countries income that will be higher, which as cheap ah,

a bitter split is exposed at an e u summit as leaders demand poland obeys european ruling but warsaw insist that pluralism is respected. and moscow says it is not surprised by aggressive rhetoric from nato states after germany calls for nuclear weapons to be deployed near russia's borders. a people tribunal in london tries alleged us crimes in an act of the support for wiki leaks. whistleblower jillian assange. washington wants extradited from u. k. the sites editor in chief says allegations of a cia plot to kill us on to prove his case has been politicized. does a recent revelation shows serve with any adults who the political element total case we can studio songs now we have all the human rights and civil liberties organ

.