of those with dares sinks we dare to ask ah, ah hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the moment russia and the north atlantic military alliance have no official links. now, there is no official dialogue on issues that concern them both,

and one of them is ukraine. washington's relentless drive to admit you crying to nato is a red line for moscow. something is going to have to give cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in tulsa. we have jeremy, whose motto he is managing, editor of colbert action magazine, and in london, we crossed to earns read. he is a political analyst, as well as a guest expert at the russia international affairs council. right? gentleman cross hock rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want . now it's appreciate nichol. i let me, let me go to you. i mean, there's so much confusion in the air here for me. we had a summit of sorts with zalinski and biden over the summer, and the read out was kind of a cool read out, you know?

yeah, yeah, i'll make it into nato, but you know, there's no rush here. and then, you know, last week we have or the last few new cycles. we have the secretary defense. he goes to georgia, he goes to ukraine. he goes to brussels and you know, we're right on board for membership. okay, what is going on here? what is the policy about ukraine? is it just to keep it simmering? or is there different factions buying for different outcomes? how do you read it? go ahead. nick, like i think the u. s. policy is objective is to obtain eventual membership for nato in ukraine. this has been part of a long term objective of separating ukraine from the russian empire, and thereby preventing any reconstitution of the russian empire or of the soviet union. but it cannot be done quickly because of the

objection of other major nato members to this. okay, well jeremy, essentially the same question because we know like for example, when things were simmering in the spring, it was the germans and the french were saying slow down, everybody slow down everyone. they were very adamant about it. and then we had zalinski, basically throwing temper temper tantrums, about not being able to get in the club. all right, and now we have this late latest flurry of quote unquote, a diplomatic maneuvers here. i mean it and also, and nichol. i didn't mention it, but that there is the for knowledge that russia is adamantly against this. it has its own security interest to take to take into consideration. jeremy, go ahead. i think there's a longstanding project going, going back to 99 in the fall of the soviet union that the united states has seen the opportunity to spread its power and influence in that region of the world and to try and weaken russia and ukraine is kind of key key prize and the u. s. has

invested something like, you know, just in a bind administration, $275000000.00 in defense in spending towards ukraine. and it's senior, the conflict seems to be re re igniting in eastern ukraine. so i think at the u. s . was heavily invest in ukraine and the project of nato expansions. and he said that, you know, the goal is to weaken russia, prevent the route, you know, resurgence of a russian empire and to dominate that region of the world. and control the resource, including the oil and gas resource of central asia. okay, well, or is we already heard from nikolai, we heard from jeremy. so it's all about russia. it's not of how ukraine, because that's what we keep getting all over again. i mean, i find this really extreme what, what, what about democracy? you know, what about protecting other members of the a lot? no, it's never that it's always, you know, this is a way to hinder russians now. so security interest, this is what this all about. go ahead, ernst a brand list,

i guess the reason why it's why taking control of your brand us will be killing several birds with one stone, but it's getting closer brushes, bonus, so engineering surrounding russia. if the grass specialist wasn't your name, so general security in english read off. yes. one of the main reasons why russia once in 2014, i was the last e fleet is u. s. was in the us, where to go up there and then rushes. lexi lease, which has made russia one. so there's lexia reading. i mean that's russia would no longer be an importance to black. see if we just look at a map, you'll see s u s national law, how romania will area they have to as well. it was, has been

a host of late getting all the train would have been amazing us 2014, following the true air, russia, the great rushes, escalating the crimea cabinets happens and then the resistance and all that region that has last us. these very frustrated because of my colleagues here at the u. s. invested lawson money in 2014. i believe it was before a newland who has voiced the sample. i thought us yesterday with the 5, the 5000000000 was from the, from independence all the way to 2014 nichol. i let me go to you. something that you've written about that i think is so important that our audience needs to know is that the way it's presented in western media, the way western analyst present the situation with the, as they present it, is

a conflict between ukraine in russia when in fact it is an intro ukraine conflict, so they, they obviously, and intentionally or frame it in the wrong way. because this is a conflict with in ukraine here. and there seems to be very little interest on the part of the western powers between the united states to actually make the government in care of resolve its own internal problems. before it starts talking about russia, go head nikolai. i actually see this conflict as a nested conflict, a, which is a conflict at several levels. there is a conflict between the united states and russia. there is a conflict between russia and ukraine, but at its heart, there is also and this is often forgotten and conflict within ukraine itself, between uh, the more western oriented galaxian part of ukraine and the other eastern part of ukraine,

which is historically been known as marcia and, and as a result of these 3 conflict rule interlinked not addressing any, any addressing, any one of them individually will not resolve the conflict, but you cannot leave any of these 3 components hours either. okay, well jeremy, i mean, what the cynic in me says cuz we, you know, we concerning what nichol i said, and what you said in the beginning of the program here. i mean, at the, the, the us with it's policy objectives at the very least will be dissatisfied to have a cold conflict. that is just a headache for mosque. i mean, that is acceptable to them because it's really actually at low cost. ok. so i mean they, that the, they, they have a ra, a wide array of objectives, but just keeping in a frozen conflict is, is good enough. i mean, that's what it says as a cynicism, when tell me, go ahead, jeremy. so i guess it bogs the russians down,

i mean it's also good for the weapons makers and it gives justification for, you know, huge military spending and another, a conflict for them. and so by, i think this is an intractable conflict. i mean, as he pointed out, that the people of eastern ukraine are more oriented towards russia and they're going to continue to mean they're not going to give in. and you know, i think the crane military, it's been something a quagmire for them, and then ukrainians don't want to fight their own people. that's why they've had to rely on these private militias. and many are, you know, very unsavory far right when groups and that, that's something that doesn't get along immediate attention at all. here is the so you know, raw, neo nazis and the far right in fighting in the eastern grain. you know, earth, it's very low. it's a very, i rarely talked about nichol, i talks about it, but i mean the a, the, which it's a form of what form of nationalism is acceptable and ukraine. and as he pointed out in his previous answer, there are radically different interpretations of what the,

what nation who had means of for the people in power. and it's very exclusionary it, exclude it excludes people on the in the don bass, for example, and obviously alienated the people in crimea. the what, the reason why they left, okay, that's a narrative that the u. s. continues to push here is that there's only one definition of ukraine and of being ukrainian, which is not true. go ahead, ernst. as a possibly a recent joints. you asking brains, did he are statements and then released back in september, 1 of the one closest respects and nurse and fighting for fighting for the ryans o everyone, no matter what gender race and so on, i think is xena phobia and so on. fortunately, it will be events, we can see that the rise in russian speakers have been trampled on the following.

the jewish congress as well as the main things on grace all over was answers for issues as well. you grands of all other minorities in even in west so it's yes, you know, well, well a nickel. i mean the, what about what about minority writes here in place? it's very rarely reported, but there's a huge assault on freedom of speech in ukraine, primarily russian speaking russian language outlets here. but it and, and there even people in the admin her administration that applauded, you know, you know, this is dissimilar, this whole, this information mantra that people are using. but they're, they're, they're, they're applauding the, the crashing of freedom of speech here without any kind of uproar. go ahead, nikolai. yeah, i think that's of a serious problem that will reverberate in the united states eventually. but it has

to be addressed and brought to the attention of people. unfortunately, that's not the case, particularly with the u. s. administration. and that's because the focus, as you rightly pointed out of this policy, is not ukraine itself and not the well being of ukraine, including, i would argue, even the, the integrity of ukraine. that's all incidental interest of containing russia. well, i mean, nickel, iowa, in the 2nd part of the program, i really want to talk about that because some very interesting scenarios out there that as you point out of absolutely nothing to do with ukraine, but actually can be to the detriment of ukraine and even a sovereign ukraine, so we're going to go take a short break and when we continue, our program are continue our discussion on ukraine state with our team. ah, ah,

with the british and american governments have often been accused of destroying lives in their own interests. while you see in this, these techniques is the state devising methods to essentially destroy the personality of an individual of by scientific beings. this is how one doctor's

theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, the ca, disseminated within the us intelligence community, and worldwide among allies for the next 30 years. then down the victim say they still live with the consequences today. ah ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing ukraine. ah okay, let's go back to jeremy in tulsa. i think we would all agree on this program. is it?

there's a, there's a, a lack of information about what's actually going on in, in, in ukraine because there's something that all of us take for granted. but it's hardly ever mentioned, and there is a blue print up plan out there to end the internal conflict in ukraine. and it's called the men's cards. okay. and it's really simple. we can print out one page, okay. but there's scant reference to it. okay. the ukrainian government, what i call official care have signed up on it, but they have never fulfilled it. okay? and then if you read wet west your news accounts of what's going on in ukraine, you might, if you get lucky, they'll make reference to the men sc agreements. but this is something the europeans have sign on to russia is a guarantor of it. but no one wants to go into the minutia of it, but that's the way out of this of is a situation in sight of ukraine. jeremy, go ahead react. oh, as you suggest, yeah. the us doesn't really have the best interest of the cranes at heart. so

they're not really pushing for that, you know, solution that within this conflict and, you know, i think part of them it's record offers lago autonomy to the eastern provinces. and that would, you know, wed them more towards russia and that may be something that ukrainian government and united states doesn't want. and maybe they want an opportunity to cut. this is the opportunity to strike a blow at russia. so they want to sustain the conflict. i mean, that might be a cynical interpretation, but there's, i think, grounds for that system. well jeremy, i think there's a whole lot of cynicism going off near. i'm glad you mentioned it, or it's the same question too, because this is a way out here. we had to push ankle government to pay lip service to it. and then the lensky running for president paid lip service, who and then it suddenly disappears into the ether here. but this is the way out here. and again, shame on the europeans for not pushing this more. okay. because that, that is a way out here. but that tells me that the reason why they don't do it is they

don't necessarily want it to be resolved. okay. they like the status quo, actually go ahead ernst on us. unfortunately, as a so called easily said, there is a matter of cynicism we live in this world, or is it a case? and the u. s. companies that benefit from it. so that was the case in your sins or a 99 sees in the us. we also very much brought it and it's, it's the case here once it, once again, as you, as you may know us and then you can read it to you. last, last i did all this new military industrial complex in ukraine, which is going to cost a lot of money. and the u. s. as in announce that even mine, ukraine's literary contents low money against the main main simons off. and so she

was very profitable. and of course, it is not good for us have polio grain, years if you know the muse convenience, let me ask you a certain amount of money. so the parents machines and, and don't last long. last. and that is that you will know with loss in their islands to getting some a so because don't ask within the crime, owes me blocky. a names are just like over there is blocking only it's killers at times. it makes it worse in this way. so it's not good for, for the u. s. a to implement those misgivings because then they will, it will not be able to control it. they will like and also about

a, which is not a major insurance. ah, nation very hands in looking years. that's so and, and show its own security. i wasn't sure whether it was francis jeremy's. you mediators as one of the c o. c, or send me away, seized my wife, i asked the u. s. nichol, i, i think the nightmare scenario is the following. is that considering the, the rhetoric that's coming out of care of, with being very frustrated of not getting into the nato club is as fast as they would like. i think they just, that nato nations are just dangling that in front of them. however, he may want to press the issue and that's the nightmare scenario. but this how it, this is how it plays out. is it, there is a military conflict, rushes read lines are cross, there is a conflict. ukraine is

a left in tatters. um, and maybe even potentially broken up into smaller pieces. but it, what is a loss for ukraine is also a loss for russia, because this is a way to cut russia out of the europeans architecture forever. forget at least generations here. this is one of the things that the people in washington want and what you and at the end result is ukraine is the biggest loser, and they win their policy objectives. so actually ukraine is the cannon fodder for this object objective. go ahead, nikolai. well hi, think you've articulated as you said, the worst case scenario. this would clearly not be in the interests of ukraine itself. it would mean the end of or effectively its sovereignty or its division into a region that would be very difficult to reconstitute. i would like to say about

the means records that are, they haven't gone anywhere. they remain the same show a blueprint. but what has happened is that ukraine has systematically attempted to redefine them. there are in a manner that is inconsistent with the original wording. and as a result, it wants it both ways. it wants its new interpretation, but it, it doesn't want to effectively renegotiate, be the initiator of the rigor renegotiation because then that would put everything on the table again. let me add just one more thing. while the mens records has 12 points and seems at least if not easy to fulfill at least systematically able to be fulfilled. there is an even simpler way to resolve the ukranian. a crisis which has been put on the table by russia both at the outset and continues

to be it's, it's essential position in the matter. which is this any, as a present, put in a said, any agreement that the regions of ukraine can reach between themselves is fine with russia. or what is that actually mean? it means that the government in care of and the rebels in on boss need to negotiate directly and whatever they can agree on among between themselves. ah, would russia would find acceptable? okay, meant it meant jeremy. i think it's a pandora's box and i think it's already been hinted to here because the downside of the minsk accords and away is that the don basket special status. then the people hadn't caught a cough. we'll say, well, what about us?

okay. and then go lead, see, it says the same thing. and so this creates a cascade effect that it's one of the reasons why cab is so hesitant to do this because they see it is a slippery slope. okay? because if one region gets preferential treatment, all the other ones will ask this for the same because as nichol, i have talked about personally when we've met. is it, you know, what would they are pushing a nationalism on a, on a country that doesn't have a nation and per se, ok. and so the, once you open up the pandora's box for some, everyone else will want to go. and then central authority and camp will dissolve. jeremy your thoughts? yeah, i think you make some good points there. i mean, you know, i think we have to go back to 2014 and, you know, i think opened up this pandora's box and you know, the, the interference by outside powers such as kind of created this real massey situation that's will be difficult to resolve a sh, i mean i think ultimately,

you know, i mean there is hope that you know, the men's record would, would solve the situation. and i agree with what you're saying and i think and then you know, you have these extreme nationalists who seem to be dom name, ukrainian government. it's not clear how far they would go so well. even if not i can i say some jamming nikolai. go ahead, jump in. yeah, i federalism is not a danger for ukraine properly understood. federalism would be ukraine salvation if every region could a determine it's local cultural policy as it wanted, it would feel great. her attachment to the center, this is the than it does now. of the problem is one created artificially by kia. this has been the history of federalism and federalist systems throughout the world . and ukraine really needs to learn from that experience,

a global experience. okay, right. okay. that drawing upon what we're nichol, i said here aren't say, but does that do the people in power want a win win situation because his whole conflict is built on creating the other, creating the enemy. ok. what nicolai's has makes perfect sense. but as to my, as, as too much blood been spilled, that too many problems created for them to say, hey let's, i'll sit down and sing, come by are, because i can tell you that the us now definitely doesn't want that to happen. they don't want a resolution of this. go ahead, ernst, a united states, and then a peaceful resolution. mystery means there is no interest on the currents. ukrainian means a

j roll the no 10 for mass meetings. but even though those meetings go back for a 2019, was not seen where soleski man with a paris in 2019 and that initially it agreed agreements, bounce back troops on the line of contracts are all waiting for the whole lot of trucks. and then zelinski on a day says that actually, you know, what i'm going to go with that actually is all the want to get all the troops from 3 locations. and later on i didn't see that i wish to show that the currents grain regime, not only, not only, not a gentleman, we have run out of time,

we just have to avoid south us at the august 2008 situation. everyone knows what i'm talking about. many thanks. so my guess in kingston, tulsa, and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here to see you next time, remember them in oh, oh, in russia this close of car was discontinued more than 20 years ago. even though say more than what i'm saying, it was a sort of can you sell it to proposal this dealing book,

which is important doctors it took 5 years to close the gap on the world car industry from the drawing board to the 1st finished model scripture so we'll go over how to find excellent roles. can you deal with my food ocean international food for lucy? shift almost lucas crockett. the quizlet live with nurse. oh. wow. you know things are, of course, playing out as we've been protecting they would. we've got the very central banks putting on their kabuki costumes and getting ready to go out on stage and perform their ritualistic nod to the need to raise rates, followed by their ritual. was stake denial that they are able to raise rates, followed by massive quantitative easing. money printing and hyperinflation. once again. oh boy,

it gets so entertaining. we're empowering ourselves to be more efficient or quicker with our transactions. we can make mobile payments from our sons. the truth is that every device is a potential entry point for security attack. i think okay, but i went and smash lee with anything but oily. eventually there's malware on thousands, maybe sometimes millions each day. they use the cyber, they use the think biology. it's an extension of traditional crime. artificial intelligence has not many main threat. this is due to the 3 laws of robotics. one of the things that's happening in the mini cyber implants right now, i'd be where they're very worried about it. most people would equally be you can put a chip in my brain. so there has been a lot of progress from the hacker side using ai and using other advanced

technologies. there has been on the defensive slayton who it was a blow reports. a serious flaws in pfizer is coded vaccine testing procedures and says, u s. officials refused to listen joe, by branding us democrat, democrats, democracy, excuse me, the envy of the world. but the world increasingly disagrees as a poll shows a sharp divide in global perceptions of american democracy along with its health care system. we discussed the findings with a former us congressman, president putin pledges that russia will be carbon neutral, no later than 2060, and a message to delegates at the un climate summit in scotland. and as the west pushes for action at cop $26.00, we look at how their ambitious plans might hurt nations dependent on fossil fuels.