social for you to view this is this at this, but it is possible for sure. oh, it does show a helpful watch at the palm street decades we'd like for ukraine. eye witnesses recall the events. this will be more or less of you to shoot me a deficiency of chipotle. what are you familiar with that order? i'm not sure, but i told them once with modern windows and what other forces were at play, the producer whom you show in shin machine, them you put in the kid a water motor currency. when is it the shows up in the moser, the oceans, only slower. take a look at ukraine. 30 years after gaining independence, if door gear for theater, farmers from us. unless you mean like unity to thought it was a but a will. it makes you provision ok of lush will still holding. so for our

ah, [000:00:00;00] with hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the moment russia and the north atlantic military alliance have no official links. now, there is no official dialogue on issues that concern them both, and one of them is ukraine, washington's. we let this drive to admit ukraine to nato is a red line for moscow. something is going to have to give a crush dock in ukraine. i'm joined by my guest nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in tulsa. we

have jeremy, whose motto he is managing, editor of covert action magazine, and in london, we cross to earns read. he is a political analyst, as well as a guest expert at the russia international affairs council. right gentlemen, crosshatch, rules and effect that means can jump anytime you want. now it's appreciate nichol. i let me, let me go to you. i mean, there's so much confusion in the air here for me. um we had a summit of sorts with zalinski and biden over the summer, and the read out was kind of a cool read out, you know? yeah, you make it into nato, but you know, there's no rush here. and then, you know, last week we have or the last a few new cycles. we have the secretary of defense. he goes to georgia, he goes to ukraine. he goes to brussels and you know, we're right on board for membership. okay. and what is going on here? what is the policy about ukraine? is it just to keep it simmering? or is there different factions buying for different outcomes? how do you read it? go ahead, nick, like,

i think the u. s. policy is objective is to obtain eventual membership for nato in ukraine. this has been part of a long term objective of separating ukraine from the russian empire, and thereby preventing any reconstitution of the russian empire or of the soviet union. but a, it cannot be done quickly because of the objection of other major nato members to this. okay, well jeremy, essentially the same question because we know like for example, when things were simmering in the spring, it was the germans and the french were saying slow down, everybody slow down everyone. they were very adamant about it. and then we had zalinski, basically throwing temperature temper tantrums, about not being able to get in the club. all right, and now we have this late latest flurry of quote unquote,

a diplomatic maneuvers here. i mean it and also, and nichol. i didn't mention it, but that there is the for knowledge that russia is adamantly against this. it has its own security interest to to, to take into consideration, jeremy, go ahead. i think there's a long standing project going, going back to 990 in the fathers of the union, that the united states has seen the opportunity to a spread its power and influence in that region of the world and to try and weaken russia and ukraine is kind of key key prize, and the u. s. has invested something like, you know, just in a bind administration, $275000000.00 in defense or spending towards ukraine. and it's senior, the conflict seems to be re, re igniting in the, in eastern ukraine. so i think at the u. s. was heavily invest in ukraine and the project of nato expansion. and as he said that, you know, the goal is to weaken russia, prevent the route, no resurgence of russian empire. and to dominate that region of the world and

control the resource, including the well and gas resource of central asia. ok, well, or is we already heard from nikolai, we heard from jeremy. so it's all about russia. it's not about ukraine because that's what we keep getting all over again. when i find this really extorting what, what, what about democracy? you know, what about protecting other members of the a lot? no, it's never that it's always, you know, that this is a way to hinder russians now. so security interest, this is what this all about. go ahead, ernst a brand this. i believe that's the reason why it's why taking control of the brand us will be killing several birds with one stone. but it's getting closer brushes, borders, engineering surrounding russia. if the grass specialist wasn't unique, so kevin russell, security in english,

please read off of yes. one of the main reasons why russia, when's in 2014, i was the last e fleet is u. s. was in the us, where to go up there and then rushes. lexi lease, which has made russia one. so there's, you know, lexi reagan, i mean that's russia would no longer be of any importance here. let's see if we just look at a map s u. s. nicer la la romania area. they have to as well. it was, has been middle halls as it relates to getting all the train would have been amazing us 2014, following the true air russia, the great russia's rascal, crime in guidance happens and then the resistance and don't pass region. and that has last us of these very frustrated and my colleagues here said at the

u. s. invested lawson, money in 2014. i believe it was before a newland who has voiced the sample. i thought us, which was yesterday with the 5, the 5000000000 was from the, from independence all the way to 2014 nichol. i let me go to you. something that you've written about that i think is so important that our audience needs to know is that the way it's presented in western media, the way western analyst present the situation with you as they present it, is a conflict between ukraine in russia when in fact it is an intro ukraine conflict, so they, they obviously, and intentionally or frame it in the wrong way. because this is a conflict with in ukraine here. and there seems to be very little interest on the part of the western powers between the united states to actually make the government in care of resolve its own internal problems. before it starts talking

about russia, go head nikolai. i actually see this conflict as a nested conflict, a, which is a conflict at several levels. there is a conflict between the united states and russia. there is a conflict between russia and ukraine, but at its heart, there is also and this is often forgotten. a conflict within ukraine itself between uh, the more western oriented galaxian part of ukraine and the other eastern part of ukraine, which has historically been known as marcia. and, and as a result of these 3 conflict ro, interlinked, not addressing any, any addressing, any one of them individually will not resolve the conflict, but you cannot leave any of these 3 components hours either. okay, well jeremy, i mean, what the cynic in me says cuz we, you know, we concerning what nichol i said,

and what you said in the beginning of the program here. i mean, at the, the, the us with its policy objectives at the very least will be to satisfied to have a cold conflict that is just a headache for mosque. i mean, that is acceptable to them because it's really actually at low cost. ok. so i mean they, that the, they, they have a ra, a wide array of objectives, but just keeping in a frozen conflict is, is good enough. i mean, that's what it says as a cynicism would tell me, go ahead, jeremy. so i guess it bogs the russians down. i mean it's also good for the weapons makers. it gives justification for, you know, huge military spending and another conflict for them. and so i think this is an intractable conflict. i mean, as he pointed out, that the people of eastern ukraine are more oriented towards russia and they're going to continue to mean they're not going to give in. and, you know, i think the ukraine military, it's been something a quagmire for them,

and men ukrainians don't want to fight their own people. that's why they've had to rely on these private militias. and many or you know, very unsavory far right when groups and that that's something that doesn't get along immediate attention at all. here is the so you know, raw, neo nazis and the far right in fighting in the eastern grain. you know, earth, it's very low. it's a very, i rarely talked about nichol, i talks about it, but i mean the a, the, which it's a form of what form of nationalism is acceptable in ukraine. and as he pointed out in his previous answer, there are radically different interpretations of what the, what nation who had means of for the people in power. and it's very exclusive area . it exclude it excludes people on the in the don bass, for example, and obviously alienated the people in crimea. the what, the reason why they left. ok. that's a narrative that the u. s. continues to push here is that there's only one definition of ukraine and of being ukrainian, which is not true. go ahead, ernst. as a possibly

a recent joints. you asking brains, did he are statements and then released back in samara. one of the one closest respects and nurse and fighting for i think for the ryans o everyone, no matter what gender race and so on, i think is xena phobia. and so on. fortunately, if i sort of all the events, we can see that the rise in russian speakers have been trampled on the or the jewish congress as jewish congress, as well as the main things on grace. all of those answers for issues as well. and you grands of all other analyses in me even in west so it's yes, you know, well, well a nickel. i mean the, what about what about minority rights here in place? it's very rarely reported, but there's

a huge assault on freedom of speech in ukraine, primarily russian speaking russian language outlets here. but it and, and there even people in the admin her administration that applauded, you know, you know, this is december. there's all this information mantra that people are using, but they're, they're, they're, they're applauding the, the crashing of freedom of speech here without any kind of uproar. go ahead, nikolai. yeah, i think that's a very serious problem that will reverberate in the united states eventually. but it has to be addressed and brought to the attention of people. unfortunately, that's not the case, particularly with the u. s. administration. and that's because the focus, as you rightly pointed out of this policy, is not ukraine itself and not the well being of ukraine, including, i would argue, even the, the integrity of ukraine. that's all incidental interest of containing russia.

well, i mean, nickel, iowa, and the 2nd part of the program, i really want to talk about that because some very interesting scenarios out there . but as you point out of absolutely nothing to do with your grade, but actually can be to the detriment of ukraine and even a sovereign ukraine. so we're going to go take a short break and when we continue, our program are continue our discussion on ukraine state with ah, l look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except where such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence at the point, obviously is to race trust rather than fear i would like to

take on various jobs with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with a robot must protect its own existence with back i just financial survival guy. when customers go buy, you reduce the price, then l reduce a lower that's under cutting, but what's good for food market? it's not good for the global economy. i mean

ah ah ah ah, welcome back to crosstalk, where all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, to remind you we're discussing ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to jeremy in tulsa. i think we would all agree on this program is

that there's a, there's a, a lack of information about what's actually going on in, in, in ukraine because there's something that all of us take for granted. but it's hardly ever mentioned that there is a blueprint up plan out there to end the internal conflict in ukraine, and it's called the minsk accords. okay. and it's really simple. we could put it on one page. okay. um, but there's scant reference to it. okay. the ukrainian government, what i call official care have signed up on it, but they've never fulfilled it. okay. and then if you read wet wester, news accounts of what's going on a ukraine, you might, if you get lucky, they'll make reference to the men sc agreements. but this is something the europeans have sign on to russia is a guarantor of it, but no one wants to go into the minutia of it. but that's the way out of this, of this a situation in type of ukraine. jeremy, go ahead react. oh, as you suggest yeah, the us doesn't really have the best interest of the cranes at heart. so they're not

really pushing for that. you know, solution that within this conflict and, you know, i think part of them it's record offers lago autonomy to the eastern provinces. and that would, you know, wed them more towards russia. and that may be something that ukrainian government and united states doesn't want. and maybe they want an opportunity to kind of this is the opportunity to strike a blow at russia. so they want to sustain the conflict. i mean, that might be a cynical interpretation, but there's, i think, grounds for that system. well, jeremy, i think there's a whole lot of cynicism going off near. i'm glad you mentioned it. or it's the same question too, because this is a way out here. we had to push ankle government to pay lip service to it. and then the lensky running for president paid lip service who have and then it suddenly disappears into the ether here. but this is the way out here. and again, shame on the europeans for not pushing this more. okay. because that, that is a way out here. but that tells me that the reason why they don't do it is they

don't necessarily want it to be resolved. okay. they like the status quo, actually go ahead. ernst unfortunately has. so i thought easily said there is a matter of cynicism. we live in this world, or is it a case and us or companies that benefit from it. so that was the case in your sins or a magic season. yes. also very much broader and it's, it's the case here once a once again, as you, as you may know, us and your new friend se last last, i think all this new military industrial complex in ukraine, which is going to cost more money. and the u. s. as in some of the now even mine, you literary audience. so there's

a lot of money against the main main. simons off, a very profitable project. and of course, it is not good for us have polio grain, years if you know the muse convenience, let me just ask you a certain amount of money. so the currents machines in, in don't last long. last. and that is that your friend will know with loss in reference to getting some a so because don't ask within the crime, owes me blocky and sam's cranager names are just like it is blocking only it's scholars at times. it makes it worse in this way. so it's not good for, for the u. s. a. to implement those misgivings because then they will,

they will not be able so much control they like and also the which is not a major interest. ab maintenance in looking europe's sense. so control at its own security, i wasn't sure whether it was francis jeremy's. you mediators as one of the c o, c, or me, o s e 's, mom might i ask the u. s. nichol? i, i think the nightmare scenario is the following. is that considering the, the rhetoric that's coming out of care of, with being very frustrated, not getting into the nato club is as fast as they would like. i think they just, that nato nations are just dangling that in front of them. however, he may want to press the issue and that's the nightmare scenario. but this how it, this is how it plays out. is it, there is a military conflict. rushes read lines are across, there is a conflict. ukraine is

a left in tatters. um, and maybe even potentially broken up into smaller pieces. but it, what is a loss for ukraine is also a loss for russia, because this is a way to cut russia out of the europeans architecture forever. forget at least generations here. this is one of the things that the people in washington want and what you and at the end result is ukraine is the biggest loser, and they win their policy objectives. so actually ukraine is the cannon fodder for this object objective. go ahead, nikolai. well hi, think you've articulated as you said, the worst case scenario. this would clearly not be in the interests of ukraine itself. it would mean the end of effectively its sovereignty or its division into a region that would be very difficult to reconstitute. i would like to say about

the means records that are, they haven't gone anywhere. they remain the same show a blueprint. but what has happened is that ukraine has systematically attempted to redefine them. there are in a manner that is inconsistent with the original wording. and as a result, it wants it both ways. it wants its new interpretation, but it, it doesn't want to effectively renegotiate, be the initiator of the rigor renegotiation because then that would put everything on the table again. let me add just one more thing. while the mens records has 12 points and seems at least if not easy to fulfill at least systematically able to be fulfilled. there is an even simpler way to resolve the ukranian. a

crisis which has been put on the table by russia both at the outset and continues to be it's, it's essential position in the matter. which is this any, as a present, put in a said, any agreement that the regions of ukraine can reach between themselves is fine with russia. what were, what is that actually mean? it means that the government in kia and the rebels in on boss need to negotiate directly and whatever they can agree on among between themselves. ah, would russia would find acceptable amendment, jeremy? i think, you know, it's a pandora's box and i think it's already been hinted to here because the downside of the minsk accords and away is that the don basket special status. then the people hadn't caught a couple say, well, what about us? okay. and then go lead, see, it says the same thing. and so this creates

a cascade effect. that's one of the reasons why cab is so hesitant to do this because they see it is a slippery slope. okay? because if one region gets preferential treatment, all the other ones will ask this for the same because as nichol i have talked about personally when we've met is that, you know, what would they're pushing a nationalism on a, on a country that doesn't have a nation. and per se, okay. and so the, once you open up the pandora's box for some, everyone else will want to go and then central authority and cab will dissolve. jeremy, your thoughts? yeah, i think he makes of that point sir. i mean, you know, i think we have to go back to 2014 and, you know, i think opened up this pandora's box and, you know, the, the interference by outside powers that, you know, has kind of created this real massey situation that's will be difficult to resolve a sh but i mean i think ultimately you know, i mean there is hope that you know,

the mens record would i would solve the situation and i agree with what you're saying and i think and then you know you have these extreme nationalists who seem to be dom name, ukrainian government, it's not clear how far they would go so well young people cannot hear and i say some jenny nichol. i go ahead jumping. yeah. ok. federalism is not a danger for ukraine properly understood. federalism would be ukraine salvation if every region could determine it's local cultural policy as it wanted. it would feel great. her attachment to the center, this is the than it does now. of the problem is one created artificially by kia. this has been the history of federalism and federalist systems throughout the world . and ukraine really needs to learn from that experience,

a global experience. okay, with drawing upon what we're nichol, i said he earned say, but does that do the people in power want a win win situation because his whole conflict is built on creating the other, creating the enemy. ok. what nikolai says makes perfect sense. but as to mom has, as too much blood been spilled that too many problems created for them to say, hey, let's all sit down and sing, combine. because i can tell you that the u. s. that definitely doesn't want that to happen. they don't want a resolution of this. go ahead urns, this is this promotion with that there is no interest and united states and in the piece will resolution mystery maintenance. there is no interest on the currents ukrainian abilene's. so resort with ms. green has been going back to mr. green stan, snow and they were all the no,

no one's here at norman's for mass meetings. but even though those meetings go back, it is so i'm sort of 2019 was wanting not seen where soleski mad menswear is pretty moto wrong in paris in 2019. and initially it reads agreements about putting back the troops on the line of contacts all the way for the whole lot of trucks and then zelinski on the days as an issue. you know, what i'm going to go with that actually is all the on against all the troops from 3 locations and later on in that wish to show that the currents ukrainian regime not only is not already not

a gentleman were brought out of time. we just have to avoid a south of santia august 2008 situation every one knows that i'm talking about many thanks. so my guess in kingston, tulsa, and in london, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, are to see you next time. remember ruffles, the british and american governments have often been accused destroying lives in their own interests. what you see in this, these techniques is the state devising methods to essentially destroy the personality of an individual. by scientific means. this is how one doctors, theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against the prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, this year,

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