who had placed friday, i keep finding it behind, said he'd just done a, an a d r session or a d. i was when you do, when you. ready co sink words on this on the screen. you know that they want to print, so they changed my birthplace. she said, oh bryan, they changed your birthplace and i should really he said, yes, yes, you're not born in quebec anymore. he said, i said so where my born and he said, oh, i don't really shock on that. and then he took his device to lisa. oh, here we are. yes. some work i'm done these scotland. and i went with that's where i'm from. and he said, oh yeah, well apparently you went from there, done these look done these continent. and i said, i went up to jesse, i'm so when i said what's going on, i mean i, for 9 episodes, i've been playing this character. and now you told me i'm from my home town. he said, oh yeah, we thought to be a low surprised. i said it's a hell the bloody surprise. and i know it says i've been playing a somebody's a coach. okay. it's okay. you, you left done the when you were very young and you came to canada, you went back,

but you came to come get a very young age. lot more that summer with always shuttle snippet. i let you in the net, right. you'll find the source for talking about a course as ever out he dot com your chance to have you'll say there is, well, the, the comment or checking the socials. but for that reporting from oscar, this, our, it's been kevin o in on the rest of the team behind the scenes, we hope we have a great day. ah . joined me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess in the world politics. sport business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. ah, ah.

hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the moment russia and the north atlantic military alliance have no official links. now, there is no official dialogue on issues that concern them both, and one of them is ukraine. washington's relentless drive to admit ukraine to nato is a red line for mosque out. something is going to have to give cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guess, nichol, i, petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in tulsa. we have jeremy guzman of he is managing editor of coble, read out, you know? yeah, you'll make it into nato, but you know, there's no rush here. and then, you know, last week we have, or the last a few new cycles. we have the secretary of defense. he goes to georgia,

he goes to ukraine. he goes to brussels and you know, we're right on board for membership. okay, what is going on here? what is the policy about ukraine? is it just to keep it simmering? or is there different factions vying for different outcomes? how do you read it? go ahead. nick, like up, i think the u. s. policy is objective is to obtain eventual membership for nato in ukraine. this has been part of a long term objective of separating ukraine from the russian empire, and thereby preventing any reconstitution of the russian empire or of the soviet union. but it cannot be done quickly because of the objection of other i think there is a longstanding project on going back to 99 in the fall of the soviet union that the

united states has seen the opportunity to a spread its power and influence in that region of the world and to try and weaken russia and ukraine is kind of key key prize. and the u. s. has invest in something like, you know, just in a bind administration, $275000000.00 in defense in spending towards ukraine. and it's senior, the conflict seems to be re, re igniting in the, in eastern ukraine. so i think at the u. s. is heavily invest in ukraine and the project of nato expansion. and he said that, you know, the goal is to weaken russia, prevent the ro, resurgence of russian empire and to dominate that region of the world and control the resource, including the oil and gas resource of central asia. ok, well or as we already heard from nikolai, we heard from jeremy. so it's all about russia. it's not about ukraine because that's what we keep getting all over again. i mean, i find this really extreme. what, what, what about democracy? you know, what about protecting other members of the a lot?

no, it's never that it's always, you know, this is a way to hinder rushes now. so security and trust, this is what this all about. go ahead, ernst. a brand list. i guess the reason why is why taking control of the brand us will be killing several birds with one stone, but it's getting closer brushes, borders, engineering surrounding russia. if the grass specialist wasn't your name, so general security in english, please read off. yes. one of the main reasons why russia once in 2014, i was the last e fleet is u. s. was in the us, where to go up there and then rushes. lexi lease, which has made russia one. so there's, you know, lexia reading. i mean, that's russia would no longer be of any importance to black. see if we just look at

a map s u s. national law, romania area as well. it was the middle of holes as it relates to getting all the train would've been amazing. us 2014, following the true in russia, the great rushes escal and crime in guidance happens and then the resistance and don't pass region. and that has last us of these very frustrated. as i said at the u. s. invested lawson money in 2014. i believe it was before a newland who has voiced the sample 5000000 and thought us, which was yesterday with the 5 the 5000000000 was from the, from independence all the way to 2014 nichol. i let me go to you something that

you've written about that i think is so important that our audience needs to know is that the way it's presented in western media, the way western analyst present the situation with you as they present it, is a conflict between ukraine in russia when in fact it is an intro ukraine conflict. so they, they obviously, and intentionally or frame it in the wrong way. because this is a conflict with in ukraine here. and there seems to be very little interest on the part of the western powers between the united states to actually make the government in care of resolve its own internal problems. before it starts talking about russia, go head nikolai. i actually see this conflict as a nested conflict, a, which is a conflict at several levels. there is a conflict between the united states and russia. there is a conflict between russia and ukraine, but at its heart, there is also and this is often forgotten and conflict within ukraine itself,

between uh, the more western oriented galaxian part of ukraine and the other eastern part of ukraine, which is historically been known as marcia and, and as a result of these 3 conflict ro, interlinked, not addressing any, any addressing, any one of them individually will not resolve the conflict, but you cannot leave any of these 3 components hours either. okay, well jeremy, i mean, what the cynic in me says cuz we, you know, we concerning what nichol i said, and what you said in the beginning of the program here. i mean, at the, the, the us with its policy objectives at the very least will be to satisfied to have a cold conflict that is just a headache for mosque. i mean, that is acceptable to them because it's really actually at low cost. ok. so i mean they that need, they, they have a ra, a wide array of objectives,

but just keeping in a frozen conflict is, is good enough. i mean, that's what it says as a cynicism would tell me, go ahead, jeremy. so i guess it bogs the russians down and it's also good for the weapons makers. it gives justification for, you know, huge military spending and another conflict with them. and so by, i think this is an intractable conflict. i mean, as he pointed out, that the people of eastern ukraine are more oriented towards russia and they're going to continue to be not gonna give in. and, you know, i think the ukraine military, it's been something a quagmire for them, and many ukrainians don't want to fight their own people. that's why they've had to rely on these private militias. and many or you know, very unsavory far right when groups and that, that's something that then get along immediate attention is all, here is the so you know, raw, neo nazis and the far right in fighting in eastern grain, you know, earns it's area. it's a very, i rarely talked about nichol. i talks about it,

but i mean the aid which it's a form of what form of nationalism is acceptable in ukraine. and as he point out in his previous answer, there are radically different interpretations of what the, what nationhood means are for the people in power. and it's very exclusive area. it exclude, it excludes people on the, in the don bass, for example, and obviously alienated the people in crimea. the what, the reason why they left, okay, that's a narrative that the u. s. continues to push here is that there's only one definition of ukraine and of being ukranian, which is not true. go ahead, ernst. as a possibly a recent joints. you asking brains, did he are statements and then released back in samara. one of the one closest respects in fighting for i think for the ryans o everyone, no matter what gender race and so on,

i think is xena and so on. unfortunately, it will be events. we can see that the rise in russian speakers have been trampled on the or the jewish progress congress as well as the main things on grace all over was answers for issues as well. and you grands of all other i notice he's even in west so it's yes, you know, well, well a nickel. i mean the, what about what about minority writes here in place? it's very rarely reported, but there's a huge assault on freedom of speech in ukraine, primarily russian speaking russian language outlets here. but it and, and there even people in the admin her administration that applauded, you know, you know, this is december, this whole, this information mantra that people are using. but they're, they're, they're, they're applauding the, the crashing of freedom of speech here without any kind of uproar. go ahead,

nikolai. yeah, i think that's a very serious problem that will reverberate in the united states eventually. but it has to be addressed and brought to the attention of people. unfortunately, that's not the case, particularly with the u. s. administration. and that's because the focus as you like about that, the get some very interesting scenarios out there that as you point out of absolutely nothing to do with ukraine, but actually can be to the detriment of ukraine and even of a sovereign ukraine. so we're going to go take a short break and then we continue our program. rog, it's continue. our discussion on ukraine, stay with ah,

the british and american governments have off destroy personnel to that individual of by scientific means. this is how one doctor's theories were allegedly used in psychological warfare against the prisoners deemed a danger to the state. that was the foundation for the method of psychological interrogation, psychological torture, this year, disseminated within the u. s. intelligence community, and worldwide among allies for the next 30 years. and how the victim say they still live with the consequences today. where empowering ourselves to be more issues were quicker with our transactions. we can make mobile payments from our sons. the truth is that every device is in potential entry point for security attack. i think you got but oh, i didn't manage that clear with calm that and i thought i'm going to change

anything but only eventually there's malware on thousands, maybe sometimes millions each day. they use the cyber, they used the think biology as an extension of traditional crime. artificial intelligence has not many main threat. this is due to the 3 laws of robotics. one of the things that's happening at the many eve cyber implants right now, i'd be where they're really worried about it. most people with equally b, u, conflict shifter migrate. so there has been a lot of progress from the hacker side using ai and using other advanced technologies to there has been on the defensive. oh ah, welcome back to cross stock where all things are considered on peter level to remind

you we're discussing ukraine. ah. okay, let's go back to jeremy and tulsa. i think we would all agree on this program. is it, there's a, there's a, a lack of information about what's actually going on in, in, in ukraine because there's something that all of us take for granted. but it's hardly ever mentioned that there is a blueprint, a plan out there to end the internal conflict in ukraine and it's called the mens records. okay. and it's really simple. we could put it on one page. okay. um, but there's scant reference to it. okay. the ukrainian government, what i call official care of signed off on it, but they have never fulfilled it. okay. and then if you read what western news accounts of what's going on a ukraine, you might, if you get lucky, they'll make reference to the men sc agreements. but this is something the europeans have sign onto. russia is a guarantor of it, but no one wants to go into the minutia of it. but that's the way out of this,

of this a situation in tight of ukraine. jeremy, go ahead react. oh, as you suggest yeah, the us doesn't really have the best interest of the cranes at heart. so they're not really pushing for that. you know, solution that within this conflict and, you know, i think part of them it's record offers lago autonomy to the eastern provinces. and that would, you know, wed them more towards russia. and that may be something that ukrainian government and united states doesn't want. and maybe they want an opportunity to cut this is the opportunity to strike a blow at russia. so they want to sustain the conflict. i mean, that might be a cynical interpretation, but there's, i think, grounds for that system. well, jeremy, i think there's a whole lot of cynicism going off near. i'm glad you mentioned it. or it's the same question too, because this is a way out here. we had to push ankle government to pay lip service to it. and then the lensky running for president paid lip service,

who and then it suddenly disappears into the ether here. but this is the way out here. and again, shame on the europeans for not pushing this more. okay. because that, that is a way out here. but that tells me that the reason why they don't do it is they don't necessarily want it to be resolved. okay. be like the status quo. actually go ahead ernst on us. unfortunately, as a so called easily said, there is a matter of cynicism. we live in this world where a case and the u. s. companies that benefit from it. so that was the case in your sins or in the us also very much broader. and it's, it's the case here once a once again, as you, as you may know, us in your new grand se last class.

i think all of this new military industrial complex in ukraine, which is going to cost a lot of money. and the u. s. as in announce even my literary projects. so there's a lot of money against the main main. simons off, as ross, very profitable. and of course it is not good for us have polio grain years. if you for the music agreements, that means that you have a certain amount of money. so the currents machines in, in don't last long last it was and that is that it ran will know with loss in the reference to getting some a so because don't pass with then the credit lucky and sam's cranager names are just like it is blocking only it's killers,

attempts to join it in this way, so it's not good for, for the u. s. a. implement those misgivings, because then they will, they will not be able to control it. they will like and also that with which is not a major insurance i. nation very hands in looking yours, that's certain show its own security architecture, whether it what a sponsors, japanese, you mediators as one of the c o. c, or send me away, sees my and why i asked the u. s. nichol, i, i think the nightmare scenario is the following. is that, considering the, the rhetoric that's coming out of care of with being very frustrated, not getting into the nato club is as fast as they would like. i think they just

that nato nations are just dangling that in front of them. however, he may want to press the issue and that's the nightmare scenario. but this how it, this is how it plays out, is it, there is a military conflict. russia's red lines are cross, there is a conflict. ukraine is a left in tatters. um and maybe even potentially broken up into smaller pieces. but it, what is a loss for ukraine is also a loss for russia, because this is a way to cut russia out of the europeans architecture forever. forget at least generations here. this is one of the things that the people in washington want and what you and at the end result is ukraine is the biggest loser and they win their policy objective. so actually ukraine is the cannon fodder for this object objective. go ahead, nikolai. well hi, think you've articulated as you said, the worst case scenario. this would clearly not be in the interests of ukraine

itself. it would mean the end of effectively its sovereignty or its division into a region that would be very difficult to reconstitute. i would like to say about the means, go cords that are, they haven't gone anywhere. they remain the essential a blueprint. but what has happened is that ukraine has systematically attempted to redefine them. there are no manner that is inconsistent with the original wording. and as a result, it wants it both ways. it wants its new interpretation, but it, it doesn't want to effectively renegotiate, be the initiator of the rigor renegotiation, because then that would put everything on the table. again, let me add just one more thing, while dominica courts has 12 points and seems,

at least if not easy to fulfill at least systematically able to be fulfilled. there is an even simpler way to resolve the ukranian. a crisis which has been put on the table by russia both at the outset and continues to be it's, it's essential position in the matter. which is this any, as a present, put in a said, any agreement that the regions of ukraine can reach between themselves is fine with russia. or what is that actually mean? it means that the government in kia and the rebels in upon boss need to negotiate directly and whatever they can agree on among between themselves. ah, would russia would find acceptable amendment, jeremy? i think, you know, it's a pandora's box and i think it's already been hinted to here because the downside

of the minsk accords and away is that the don basket special status. then the people hadn't caught a couple say, well, what about us? okay. and then go lead, see, it says the same thing. and so this creates a cascade effect. that's one of the reasons why cab is so hesitant to do this because they see it as a slippery slope. okay? because if one region gets preferential treatment, all the other ones will ask this for the same because as nichol i have talked about personally when we have met is that you know what? they are pushing a nationalism on a, on a country that doesn't have a nation and per se. okay. and so the, once you open up to pandora's box for some, everyone else will want to go. and then central authority and cab will dissolve. jeremy, your thoughts? yeah, i think you make summit point sir, i mean, you know, i think we have to go back to 2014 and you know, i think opened up this pandora's box and you know, the,

the interference by outside powers it's, you know, has kind of created this real massey situation that's will be difficult to resolve a sh, but i mean, i think ultimately, you know, i mean there is hope that you know, the men's record would. i would solve the situation. but i agree with what you're saying. i mean, i think it's and then you know, you have these extreme nationalists who seem to be dom name, ukrainian government, it's not clear how far they would go so well young people tonight here and i say some jeanine nichol. i go ahead, jumping on federalism is not a danger for ukraine properly understood. federalism would be ukraine salvation if every region could determine it's local cultural policy as it wanted, it would feel great. her attachment to the center, this is the than it does now. of the problem is one created artificially by kia.

this has been the history of federalism and federalist systems throughout the world . and ukraine really needs to learn from that experience, a global experience. okay, well again, drawing upon what we're nichol, i said he earned say, but does that do the people in power want a win win situation because his whole conflict is built on creating the other, creating the enemy. ok. what nikolai says makes perfect sense. but as to mom has, as too much blood been spilled too many problems created for them to say, hey let's, i'll sit down and sing, combine, because i can tell you that the u. s. that definitely doesn't want that to happen. they don't want a resolution of this. go ahead, ernst, a united states, and then the resolution. convenience,

there is no interest on the currents. grand lease is always a 0 . the no one's here for mass meetings. but even though those be a 2019, was not seen where land skied man with michael wrong in paris in 2019. and that initially, it agreed they said the agreement spouse, 40 back troops on the line of contracts are all waiting for the whole lot of trucks. and then zelinski on a day says an extra, you know, what i'm going to go with that actually is all the, i want to get all the troops from 3 locations. and later on he didn't

wish to show that the currents grain regime not only is not all the notes and i have the i think gentlemen, we have run out of time. we just have to avoid south us at the august 2008 situation. everyone knows what i'm talking about. many thanks them i guess in kingston, tulsa, and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, are the see you next time. remember, ross topples? ah, when i was thing wrong when old rule just don't hold any new world yet to see out disdain because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so

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did not contribute to the epidemic of prescription medicine in the state. we speak to one of the victims tier. we are years later knowing what we know and we're still unable to provide these families with, with some kind of justice. it's a travesty.