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hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle. at the moment, russia and the north atlantic military alliance have no official links. now, there is no official dialogue on issues that concern them both. and one of them is ukraine. washington to we let this drive to admit you crying to nato is a red line for moscow. something is going to have to give cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in tulsa. we have jeremy whose motto he is managing, editor of colbert action magazine and in london we crossed to earns read. he is a political analyst, as well as a guest expert at the russia international affairs council. right gentlemen, crosshatch, rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. now it's appreciate nichol. i let me me go to you. i mean,

there's so much confusion in the air here for me. um we had a summit of sorts with zalinski and biden over the summer, and the read out was kind of a cool read out, you know? yeah, yeah, i'll make it into nato. but you know, there's no rush here, and then, you know, last week we have, or the last few new cycles, we have the secretary defense. he goes to georgia, he goes to ukraine. he goes to brussels and you know, we're right on board for membership. okay, what is going on here? what is the policy about ukraine? is it just to keep it simmering? or is there different factions buying for different outcomes? how do you read it? go ahead. nick, like i think the u. s. policy is objective is to obtain eventual membership for nato in ukraine. this has been part of a long term objective of separating ukraine from the

russian empire and thereby preventing any reconstitution of the russian empire or of the soviet union. but it cannot be done quickly because of the objection of other major nato members to this. okay, well jeremy, essentially the same question because we know like, for example, when things were simmering in the spring, it was the germans and the french were saying slow down. everybody slow down everyone, they were very adamant about it. and then we had zalinski, basically throwing temper temper tantrums, about not being able to get in the club. all right, and now we have this late latest flurry of quote unquote, a diplomatic maneuvers here. i mean it and also, and nichol. i didn't mention it, but that there is the for knowledge that russia is adamantly against this. it has its own security interest to, to, to take into consideration, jeremy, go ahead. i think there is a longstanding project going, going back to 990 in the fall of the soviet union that the united states has seen

the opportunity to a spread its power and influence in that region of the world and to try and weaken russia and ukraine is kind of key key prize, and the u. s. has invest in something like, you know, just in a bind administration, $275000000.00 in defense in spending towards ukraine. and it seemed that the conflict seems to be re re igniting in eastern ukraine. so i think at the u. s. was heavily invest in ukraine and the project of nato expansions. and he said that, you know, the goal is to weaken russia, prevent the rising o resurgence of russian empire and to dominate that region of the world and control the resource including the well and gas resource of central asia. okay, well or is we already heard from nikolai, we heard from jeremy. so it's all about russia. it's not about ukraine because that's what we keep getting all over again. i mean, i find this really extreme. what, what, what about democracy?

you know, what about protecting other members of the line? no, it's never that it's always, you know, this is a way to hinder russians now. so security and trust. this is what this all about. go ahead, ernst. a friend this, i guess the reason why is why did you control you ran us would be killing several birds with one stone, but it's getting closer brushes, borders, so continuing surrounding russia is the grass specialist with me. so kevin russell, security in english houston region often. yes. one of the main reasons why russia when's in 2014? i was the last e fleet is u. s. u s. went to go up there and then russia's lexia lease, which has made russia one. so there's, you know, lexia reading or mean that's russia would no longer be of any importance.

lassie, if we just look at a map s u s nicer blah, blah romania area. they have to as well. it was a holes, as it relates to getting all the train would have been amazing us in 2014, following the true air, russia, the great rushes restaurant, crimean cabinets happens, and then the resistance and don't pass region. and that has last us of these very frustrated because of my colleagues here at the u. s. invested lots of money in 2014. i believe us before in humans who has voiced the sample. i thought us yesterday with the 5, with the 5000000000, was from the, from independence all the way to 2014 nichol. i let me go to you. something that

you've written about that i think is so important that our audience needs to know is that the way it's presented in western media, the way western analysts present the situation with you as they present it, is a conflict between ukraine in russia when in fact it is an intro ukraine conflict, so they make obviously and intentionally or frame it in the wrong way. because this is a conflict with in ukraine here. and there seems to be very little interest on the part of the western powers between the united states to actually make the government in care of resolve its own internal problems. before it starts talking about russia, go head nikolai. i actually see this conflict as a nested conflict, a, which is a conflict at several levels. there is a conflict between the united states and russia. there is a conflict between russia and ukraine, but at its heart, there is also and this is often forgotten and conflict within ukraine itself,

between uh, the more western oriented galaxian part of ukraine and the other eastern part of ukraine, which is historically been known as marcia and, and as a result of these 3 conflict rule interlinked not addressing any, any addressing, any one of them individually will not resolve the conflict, but you cannot leave any of these 3 components hours either. okay, well jeremy, i mean, what the cynic in me says cuz we, you know, we considering what nichol i said, and what you said in the beginning of the program here. i mean, at the, the, the us with its policy objectives at the very least will be dissatisfied to have a cold conflict. that is just a headache for mosque. i mean, that is acceptable to them because it's really actually at low cost. ok. so i mean

they, that the, they, they have a ra, a wide array of objectives, but just keeping in a frozen conflict is, is good enough. i mean, that's what it says as a cynicism would tell me, go ahead, jeremy. so i guess it bogs the russians down. i mean it's also good for the weapons makers. it gives justification for, you know, huge military spending and other conflicts for them. and so i think this is an intractable conflict. i mean, as he pointed out, that the people of eastern ukraine are more oriented towards russia and they're going to continue to mean they're not going to give in. and you know, i think the crane military, it's been something a quagmire for them, and then ukrainians don't want to fight their own people. that's why they've had to rely on these private militias. and many or you know, very unsavory far right when groups and that that's something that doesn't get along immediate attention at all. here is the so you know, raw, neo nazis and the far right in fighting in the eastern grain. you know, earth,

it's very low. it's a very, i rarely talked about nichol, i talks about it, but i mean the, the, which, it's a form of what form of nationalism is acceptable and ukraine. and as he pointed out in his previous answer, there are radically different interpretations of what the, what nation who had means of for the people in power. and it's very exclusive area . it exclude it excludes people on the in the don bass, for example, and obviously alienated the people in crimea. the what, the reason why they left. ok. that's a narrative that the u. s. continues to push here is that there's only one definition of ukraine and of being ukrainian, which is not true. go ahead, ernst. as a possibly a recent joints you asking brains did here are some statements. and then released patterns and sandra wildly. one are close, was the respects and nurse and fighting for fighting for the ryans o everyone, no matter what gender race and so on, i think is xena phobia, antisemitism,

and so on. fortunately, if i said oh the events, we can see ross, the rising russian speakers have been trampled on the or the jewish taurus congress as well as the main things on that grace. all of those answers are always use as well. and you grands of all other analyses even in west austin elementary. so it's, it's not a well well, a nichol. i am in the what about what about minority writes here in place? it's very rarely reported, but there's a huge assault on freedom of speech in ukraine, primarily russian speaking russian language outlets here. but it and, and there even people in the admin her administration that applauded, you know, you know, this is this imprint is all this information mantra that people are using. but they're, they're, they're, they're applauding the,

the crashing of freedom of speech here without any kind of uproar. go ahead, nikolai. yeah, i think that's of a serious problem that will reverberate in the united states eventually. but it has to be addressed and brought to the attention of people. unfortunately, that's not the case, particularly with the u. s. administration. and that's because the focus, as you rightly pointed out of this policy, is not ukraine itself and not the well being of ukraine, including, i would argue, even the integrity of ukraine. that's all incidental interest of containing russia. well, i mean nichol i away in the 2nd part of the program. i really want to talk about that because some very interesting scenarios out there. but as you point out, have absolutely nothing to do with your grade, but actually can be to the detriment of ukraine and even of a sovereign ukraine. so we're going to go take a short break and when we continue our program or continue our discussion on

ukraine state with our team. ah, ah, ah, it's been since he is the soviet union collapsed. mom miss couple other go to chill the one to walk up on getting a little talk. so shown where you swore trust them went through all their thumb. ukraine was one of the independent states that emerge from the ruins of the super bow. i'm doing awesome. good, would you also get on the little green? come a little on the show you some of the i can last new lucian with better lung or law or else what is a, is a social for you, the viewer, this is for surface, for the to scribble, offering and finish out the ship. a for apple watch at the past 3

decades been like the ukraine. eye witnesses, recall the events. this will be more or less of judiciary, affinity deficiency, or chipotle. you are unusable to love it. it's, i'm not sure what are your thoughts for them with, with modern windows and what other forces were at play. you have to do so to whom you show c engine mushy in you. put in the kid. what it would occur when is it shows us the most of us, there's only take a look at ukraine, 30 years out, the gaining independence organism. your phone with us here in christina thought it was a will include, says he, atlantic of usual opium, lush williston holding no problem, or what happened? i make no, certainly no borders line to tease and

you parish as a merge, we don't have authority. we don't have a vaccine. the whole world needs to take action to be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be doing better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we're in it together. as a korea professional sport is much tougher on some than others. a u. l. a maya by everybody. so why would somebody believe me?

i was just a little girl. the price of a to, to, to achieve really was, was trying to read the paper this morning, usa swimming coach, arrested leslie had sex with a 12 year old girl. this happens almost every way we get calls at the office. i get informed about one of my greatest fears is someone is gonna start linking all this together is going to be a 60 minute documentary about youth coaches in sports like gymnastics swimming, is that documentary? i see it on our tea. ah, welcome back to crosstalk. were all things considered on peter level? to remind you we're discussing crane? i can go back to jeremy in tulsa. i think we would all agree on this program is that

there's a, there's a, a lack of information about what's actually going on in, in, in ukraine because there's something that all of us take for granted. but it's hardly ever mentioned that there is a blue print up plan out there to end the internal conflict in ukraine and it's called the mens cards. okay. and it's really simple. we could put it on one page. okay. um but there's scant reference to it. okay. the ukrainian government, what i call official care have signed up on it, but they've never fulfilled it. okay. and then if you read wet wester, news accounts of what's going on in ukraine, you might, if you get lucky, they'll make reference to the men sc agreements. but this is something the europeans have signed on to russia is a guarantor of it, but no one wants to go into the minutia of it. but that's the way out of this, of this a situation inside of ukraine. jeremy, go ahead react. oh, as you suggest yeah, the us doesn't really have the best interest of the cranes at heart. so they're not

really pushing for that. you know, solution that within this conflict and, you know, i think part of them it's record offers lago autonomy to the eastern provinces. and that would, you know, wed them more towards russia. and that may be something that ukrainian government and united states doesn't want. and maybe they want an opportunity to kind of this is the opportunity to strike a blow at russia. so they want to sustain the conflict. i mean, that might be a cynical interpretation, but there's, i think, grounds for that system. well, jeremy, i think there's a whole lot of cynicism going off near. i'm glad you mentioned it, earned the same question too, because this is a way out here. we had to push ankle government to pay lip service to it. and then the lensky running for president paid lip service, who and then it suddenly disappears into the ether here. but this is the way out here. and again, shame on the europeans for not pushing this more. okay. because that, that, that is a way out here. but that tells me that the reason why they don't do it is they

don't necessarily want it to be resolved. okay. be like the status quo. actually go ahead. ernst unfortunately uneasily said, there is a matter of cynicism. we live in this world where or if it was the case and the u. s. or a companies that benefit from it. so that was the case in your sins or 99. he's in the us also very much broader and it's, it's the case here once a once again, as you, as you may know, us and your new friend, me, that se last class. last, i think all this new military industrial complex in ukraine, which is going to cost a lot of money. and the u. s. as in announced even money literary projects against the main main signs of

a very profitable project. and of course it is not good for us. oh you rain? yes. if you go the music agreements, let me just ask you a certain amount of money. so the currents jeans in it don't last long last. and that is that grant will know with lots in reference to getting some a so because don't ask within the crime, owes me lucky and sam's will be granted. names are just like with scott is blocking only it's scholars at times. it makes it worse in this way, so it's not good for, for the u. s. a. implement those misgivings because then they will, they will not be able to control it. they will like and also that with

which is not a major interest. ah, nation very elements in looking yours, that's certain control and a so security architecture, where would i, sponsors, japanese, you mediators as one of the c o s e 's, or send me away, sees my and why i asked the u. s. nichol, i, i think the nightmare scenario is the following. is that, considering the, the rhetoric that's coming out of care of being very frustrated of not getting into the nato club is as fast as they would like. i think they just that nato nations are just dangling that in front of them. however, he may want to press the issue and that's the nightmare scenario. but this how it, this is how it plays out, is it, there is a military conflict. rushes read lines are cross, there is a conflict. ukraine is

a left in tatters. um and maybe even potentially broken up into smaller pieces. but it, what is a loss for ukraine is also a loss for russia, because this is a way to cut russia out of the european sub architecture forever for jet, at least generations here. this is one of the things that the people in washington want. and what you and at the end result is ukraine is the biggest loser, and they win their policy objective. so actually ukraine is the cannon fodder for this object objective. go ahead, nikolai. well, hi, think you've articulated as you said the worst case scenario. this would clearly not be in the interests of ukraine itself. it would mean the end of effectively its sovereignty or its division into a region that would be very difficult to reconstitute. i would like to say about

the means records that are they haven't gone anywhere. they remain the same show a blueprint, but what has happened is that ukraine has systematically attempted to redefine them . there are no manner that is inconsistent with the original wording. and as a result in wants it both ways. it wants its new interpretation, but it, it doesn't want to effectively renegotiate, be the initiator of the rigor renegotiation because then that would put everything on the table. again, let me add just one more thing, while dominica courts has 12 points and seems, at least if not easy to fulfill at least systematically able to be fulfilled. there is an even simpler way to resolve the ukrainian, a crisis which has been put on the table by russia both at the outset and continues

to be it's, it's essential position in the matter. which is this any, as move a president bush and has said any agreement that the regions of ukraine can reach between themselves is fine with russia. what were, what is that actually mean? it means that the government in kia and the rebels in on boss need to negotiate directly and whatever they can agree on among between themselves. ah, would russia would find acceptable amendment, jeremy? i think, you know, it's a pandora's box and i think it's already been hinted to here because the downside of the minsk accords and away is that the don basket special status. then the people hadn't caught a couple say, well, what about us?

okay. and then go lead, see, it says the same thing. and so this creates a cascade effect. that's one of the reasons why cab is so hesitant to do this because they see it as a slippery slope. okay? because if one region gets preferential treatment, all the other ones will ask this for the same because as nichol i have talked about personally when we've met is that you know what? they're pushing a nationalism on a, on a country that doesn't have a nation and per se. okay. and so the, once you open up the pandora's box for some, everyone else will want to go and then central authority and cab will dissolve. jeremy, your thoughts? yeah, i think he makes of that point sir. i mean, you know, i think we have to go back to 2014 and, you know, i think opened up this pandora's box and, you know, the, the interference by outside powers that, you know, has kind of created this real new massey situation that's will be difficult to resolve a sh, i mean i think ultimately you know,

i mean there is hope that you know, the mens record would i would solve the situation and i agree with what you're saying and i think and then you know you have these extreme nationalists who seem to be dom name, ukrainian government, it's not clear how far they would go so well. you know, he's not here and i say sometime in nichol, i go ahead champagne. yeah, i federalism is not a danger for ukraine properly understood. federalism would be ukraine salvation. if every region could a, determine it's local cultural policy as it wanted, it would feel great. her attachment to the center, this is the than it does now. of the problem is one created artificially by kia. this has been the history of federalism and federalists systems throughout the world. and ukraine really needs to learn from that experience,

a global experience. okay, it drawing a power with nickel. i said he earned say, but does that do the people in power want a win win situation because his whole conflict is built on creating the other, creating the enemy. ok. what nicolai's, that makes perfect sense, but as to mom has, as too much blood been spilled too many problems created for them to say, hey let's, i'll sit down and sing, come by are, because i can tell you that the u. s. that definitely doesn't want that to happen. they don't want a resolution of this. go ahead urns a futurist united states and then a peaceful resolution mystery agreements. there is no interest on the occurrence ukrainian means or has been going back to me a favor of the no one's here before meetings. but

even though those meetings go back, a lot of 2019 was not seen where soleski man mans were pretty much go wrong in paris in 2019. and that initially, it agreed based on the agreements about putting back troops on the line of contracts are all the way for the whole lot of trucks. and then zelinski on a day as an issue. you know, what i'm going to go with that actually is all the, i want to get all the troops from 3 locations and later on he didn't wish to show that the currents in reaching not only is not only not i think gentlemen,

we have run out of time we just have to avoid south us at thea, august 2008 situation. everyone knows what i'm talking about. many thanks them i guess in kingston, tulsa, and in london. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here are the see you next time. remember, cross top roles ah, which is always built. it was created 1st and child. so without understanding childhood relationships, it becomes very hard to understand adult relationships. and that's why it's incredibly important to be able to have a basic understanding of what motivates you as an emotional b a

ah, breaking news here here on our tea, a pentagon probe has found. 8 no misconduct or negligence in the botched us drone strike, uncle bull. earlier this year, the attack left 10 civilians dead including 7 children. u. s. medicines watchdog backs pfizer despite a whistleblower report in the british medical journal, alleging serious flaws in the company's coven vaccine testing. and us democrats suffer a surprising defeat and a pivotal governor's election in virginia. it's widely considered to be a major test for biden's presidency ah, broadcasting live from russia to the world. this is.