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with hello and welcome to cross top where all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle at the moment. russia and the north atlantic military aligns have no official links . now, there is no official dialogue on issues that concern them both. and one of them is ukraine. washington's relentless drive to admit you crying to nato is a red line for moscow. something is going to have to give cross sucking ukraine. i'm joined by my guest nichol, i petro in kingston. he is a professor of political science at the university of rhode island in tulsa. we have jeremy, whose motto he is managing, editor of colbert action magazine and in london we crossed to earns read. he is a political analyst, as well as a guest expert at the russia international affairs council. right gentlemen,

cross south rules and effect, that means can jump in any time you want. now is appreciate nichol. i let me, let me go to you. i mean, there's so much confusion in the air here for me. um, we had a summit of sorts with zalinski and biden over the summer, and the read out was kind of a cool read out, you know? yeah, you make it into nato, but you know, there's no rush here. and then, you know, last week we have, or the last a few new cycles. we have the secretary defense. he goes to georgia, he goes to ukraine. he goes to brussels and you know, we're right on board for membership. okay, what, what is going on here? what is the policy about and ukraine? is it just to keep it simmering? or is there different factions buying for different outcomes? how do you read it? go ahead. nick. like i think the u. s. policy is objective is to obtain eventual membership for nato in ukraine. this has been part of

a long term objective of separating ukraine from the russian empire, and thereby preventing any reconstitution of the russian empire or of the soviet union. but it cannot be done quickly because of the objection of other major nato members to this. okay, well jeremy, essentially the same question because we know like for example, when things were simmering in the spring, it was the germans and the french were saying slow down, everybody slow down everyone. they were very adamant about it. and then we had zalinski, basically throwing temperature temper tantrums, about not being able to get in the club. all right, and now we have this late latest flurry of quote unquote, a diplomatic maneuvers here. i mean it and also, and nichol. i didn't mention it, but that there is the for knowledge that russia is adamantly against this. it has its own security interest to take to take into consideration. jeremy,

go ahead. i think it is a longstanding project going, going back to 990 in the fathers of the union that the united states has seen the opportunity to a spread its power and influence in that region of the world and to try and weaken russia and ukraine is kind of key key prize, and the u. s. has invest in something like, you know, just in a bind administration. $275000000.00 in defense are spending towards ukraine and senior, the conflict seems to be re, re igniting in the, in eastern ukraine. so i think at the u. s. is heavily invest in ukraine and the project of nato expansions. and he said that, you know, the goal is to weaken russia, prevent the ro, resurgence of russian empire. and to dominate that region of the world and control the resource, including the oil and gas resource of central asia. ok, well, or is we already heard from nikolai, we heard from jeremy. so it's all about russia. it's not about ukraine because

that's what we keep getting all over again. i mean, i find this release story of what, what, what about democracy, you know, what about protecting other members of the law? no, it's never that it's always, you know, that this is a way to hinder russians now. so security interest, this is what this all about. go ahead, ernst. i got the brand list. i guess the reason why it's why taking control of your ran us will be killing several birds with one stone, but it's getting closer brushes, bonus, so engineering surrounding russia is the grass specialist wasn't your name so that kevin russell, security in english, read off of yes, one of the main reasons why russia wines in 2014 i was the last e fleet is u. s. was if the u. s. were to, to go up there and then rushes. lexi lease,

which has made russia one. so there's, you know, lexi reagan, i mean that's russia would no longer be of any importance to black. see if we just look at a map, you'll see that the u. s. navy law, romania will guerria the answer to that you may as well. it was a horse, as it relates to getting all the train would have been amazing us. 2014, following the true air. ah, russia, the great rushes escal and the crime in guidance. athens and then the resistance and all that region that has last us of these very frustrated as a my colleagues here at the u. s. invested lawson money here in 2014. i believe it was before a newland who has voiced the sample. i thought us yesterday

with the 5, the 5000000000 was from the, from independence all the way to 2014 nichol. i let me go to you. something that you've written about that i think is so important that our audience needs to know is that the way it's presented in western media, the way western analyst present, the situation with the is they presented is a conflict between ukraine in russia. when in fact it is an inter ukraine conflict, so they obviously and intentionally frame it in the wrong way. because this is a conflict with in ukraine here. and there seems to be very little interest on the part of western powers, but you'd be nodded states to actually make the government and can resolve its own internal problems before it starts talking about russia. go ahead, nikolai. i actually see this conflict as a mess. did conflict, which is a conflict at several levels. there is a conflict between the united states and russia. there is

a conflict between russia and ukraine, but at its heart, there is also and this is often forgotten and conflict within ukraine itself. between the more western oriented gleason part of ukraine and the other eastern part of ukraine, which is historically been known as model and. and as a result, these 3 conflict are all interlinked, not addressing any, any addressing any one of them individually will not resolve the conflict, but you cannot lead any of these 3 components hours either. okay, well jeremy, i mean the senate can me says because you know, we considering what nichol i said, and what you said in the beginning of the program here. i mean, the us with its policy objectives at the very least will be dissatisfied to have a cold conflict that is just a headache for moscow. i mean,

that is acceptable to them because it's really actually at low cost. ok. so i mean they, they, they have a ra, a wide array of objectives, but just keeping an approach and conflict is good enough. i mean that's what the cynicism went tell me, go ahead, jeremy. so i guess it bogs the russians down and it's also good for the weapons makers and it gives justification for you know, huge military spending and another, a conflict with them. and so by, i think this is an intractable conflict. i mean, as he pointed out, that the people of eastern ukraine are more oriented towards russia and they're going to continue to mean they're not gonna give in. and, you know, i think the ukraine military, it's been something a quagmire for them, and many ukrainians don't want to fight their own people. that's why they've had to rely on these private militias. and many are, you know, very unsavory far right when groups and that, that's something that then get along immediate attention is all,

here is the so you know, raw, neo nazis and the far right in fighting in eastern crane. you know, earth, it's very low. it's a very, i rarely talked about nichol, i talks about it, but i mean the a b, which it's a form of what form of nationalism is acceptable and ukraine. and as he pointed out in his previous answer, there are radically different interpretations of what the, what nationhood means are for the people in power. and it's very exclusive area. it exclude, it excludes people on the, in the don bass, for example, and obviously alienated the people in crimea. the what, the reason why they left, okay, that's a narrative that the u. s. continues to push here is that there's only one definition of ukraine and of being ukranian, which is not true. go ahead, ernst. as a possibly a recent joints. you asking brains, did he are statements? and then released back in september, 1 of the one closest respects and nurse and fighting for our fighting for the

ryans o everyone, no matter what gender race and so on, i think is xena phobia and so on. unfortunately, it will be events. we can see that the rise in russian speakers have been trampled on the following. the jewish congress as well as the main things on grace all over was answers for issues as well. and you grands of all other minorities in even in west austin? so it's yes, you know, well, well a nichol. i am in the what about what about minority rights here in place? it's very rarely reported, but there's a huge assault on freedom of speech in ukraine, primarily russian speaking russian language outlets here. but it and, and there even people in the admin her administration that applauded, you know,

you know, this is dissimilar, this whole, this information mantra that people are using. but they're, they're, they're, they're applauding the, the crashing of freedom of speech here without any kind of uproar. go ahead, nickel, i yeah, i think that's a very serious problem that will reverberate in the united states eventually. but it has to be addressed and brought to the attention of people. unfortunately, that's not the case, particularly with the u. s. administration. and that's because the focus, as you rightly pointed out of this policy, is not ukraine itself and not the well being of ukraine, including, i would argue, even the, the integrity of ukraine. that's all incidental interest of containing russia. well, i mean the nickel, iowa, and the 2nd part of the program, i really want to talk about that because some very interesting scenarios out there . but as you point out, have absolutely nothing to do with you. great. but actually can be to the detriment

of ukraine and even a sovereign ukraine. so we're going to go take a short break. and when we continue, our program are gonna continue our discussion on ukraine state with our team. ah, ah ah ah mm.

as a korea professional sport is much tougher on some than others. and she was a euro hubert meyer by everybody here. so why would somebody believe me? i was just a little girl. the price of very to, to, to achieve really was, was fall, change a read on the paper this morning, usa swimming coach, arrested leslie had sex with a 12 year old girl. this happens almost every week. we get calls at the office. i get informed about one of my greatest fears is someone's going to start linking all this together. and it's going to be a 60 minute documentary about youth coaches in sports like gymnastics swimming, is that documentary? see it or naughty way, which we love as adults,

is always built on a structure that was created 1st in childhood. so without understanding childhood relationships, it becomes very hard to understand your adult relationships. and that's why it is incredibly important to be able to have a basic understanding of what motivates you as an emotional being i welcome back across the were all things considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing crane ah case go back to jeremy in tulsa, i think we would all agree on this program is that there's a, there's a, a lack of information about what's actually going on in, in, in ukraine because there's something that all of us take for granted. but it's hardly ever mentioned that there is a blue print up plan out there to end the internal conflict in ukraine and it's

called the mens cards. okay. and it's really simple. we could put it on one page. okay. um but there's scant reference to it. okay. the ukrainian government, what i call official care of signed off on it, but they've never fulfilled it. okay. and then if you read wet west your news accounts of what's going on a ukraine, you might, if you get lucky, they'll make reference to the minsk agreements. but this is something the europeans have signed on to russia is a guarantor of it, but no one wants to go into the minutia of it. but that's the way out of this, of this a situation inside of ukraine. jeremy, go ahead react. oh, as you suggest yeah, the us doesn't really have the best interest of the cranes at heart. so they're not really pushing for that. you know, solution that within this conflict and, you know, i think part of them it's record offers lago autonomy to the eastern provinces. and that would, you know, wed them more towards russia. and that may be something that ukrainian government

and united states doesn't want. and maybe they want an opportunity to cut this is the opportunity to strike a blow at russia. so they want to sustain the conflict. i mean that might be a cynical interpretation, but there's, i think, grounds for that sense is, well, jeremy, i think there's a whole lot of cynicism going off near. i'm glad you mentioned it, or it's the same question too, because this is a way out here. we had to push ankle government to pay lip service to it. and then the lensky running for president paid lip service who have and then it suddenly disappears into the ether here. but this is the way out here. and again, shame on the europeans for not pushing this more. okay. because that, that is a way out here. but that tells me that the reason why they don't do it is they don't necessarily want it to be resolved. okay. they like the status quo, actually go ahead ernst on us unfortunately. and he said there is a matter of cynicism. we live in this world where

a case and the u. s. companies that benefit from it. so that was the case in your sins or in the us. we also very much brought it. and it's, it's the case here once it once again, as you, as you may know, us in your new grand se last class. last, i did all this new military industrial complex in ukraine, which is going to cost more money. and u. s. as in announce that even mine ukraine's literary projects. so there's a lot of money against the main main simons off. and so she was very profitable. and of course, it is not good for us have polio grain, years. if you, for the music agreements,

that means that you have a certain amount of money for the parents machines and, and don't last long last. it was. and that is that your brain will know with loss in there, i was getting to make sure because don't ask within the crime, owes me lucky. and sam's cranager names are just like it is blocking only it's killers times. it makes it worse in this way. so it's not good for, for the u. s. a. implement those misgivings because then they will, they will not be able to control it. they will like and also balance a which is not a major insurance. i nation very hands in looking yours. yes sir. and, and show its own security. i wasn't sure whether it was francis jeremy's.

you mediators as one of the c o. c, or said me, o s e 's, mom, why i asked the u. s. nichol, i, i think the nightmare scenario is the following. is that considering the, the rhetoric that's coming out of care of being very frustrated, not getting into the nato club is as fast as they would like. i think they just, that nato nations are just dangling that in front of them. however, he may want to press the issue and that's the nightmare scenario. but this how it, this is how it plays out. is it, there is a military conflict. russia's red lines are cross, there is a conflict. ukraine is a left in tatters. um, and maybe even potentially broken up into smaller pieces. but it, what is a loss for ukraine is also a loss for russia, because this is a way to cut russia out of the europeans architecture forever. forget at least

generations here. this is one of the things that the people in washington want and what you and at the end result is ukraine is the biggest loser, and they win their policy objectives. so actually ukraine is the cannon fodder for this object objective. go ahead, nikolai. well hi, think you've articulated as you said, the worst case scenario. this would clearly not be in the interests of ukraine itself. it would mean the end of effectively its sovereignty, orange division into a region that would be very difficult to reconstitute. i would like to say about the means, go cords that are, they haven't gone anywhere. they remain the essential a blueprint. but what has happened is that ukraine has systematically attempted to redefine them in

a manner that is inconsistent with the original wording. and as a result, it wants it both ways. it wants its new interpretation, but it, it doesn't want to effectively renegotiate, be the initiator of the rigor renegotiation, because then that would put everything on the table. again, let me add just one more thing, while dominica courts has 12 points and seems, at least if not easy to fulfill at least systematically able to be fulfilled. there is an even simpler way to resolve the ukrainian, a crisis which has been put on the table by russia both at the outset and continues to be it's, it's essential position in the matter. which is this, or any, as a present, put in a said, any agreement that the regions of ukraine can reach between themselves

is fine with russia. or what is that actually mean? it means that the government in kia and the rebels in on boss need to negotiate directly and whatever they can agree on among between themselves. ah, would russia would find acceptable? okay, meant it meant jeremy. i think, you know, it's a pandora's box and i think it's already been hinted to here because the downside of the minsk accords and away is that the don basket special status. then the people hadn't caught a cough will say, well, what about us? okay. and then go lead, see, it says the same thing. and so this creates a cascade effect. that's one of the reasons why cab is so hesitant to do this because they see it as a slippery slope. okay? because if one region gets preferential treatment, all the other ones will ask this for the same because as nichol i have talked about

personally when we have met is that you know what? they are pushing a nationalism on a, on a country that doesn't have a nation and per se. okay. and so the, once you open up the pandora's box for some, everyone else will want to go. and then central authority and cab will dissolve. jeremy, your thoughts? yeah, i think you make summit point, sir, i mean, you know, i think we have to go back to 2014 and you know, i think opened up this pandora's box and you know, the, the interference by outside powers such as kind of crated this real massey situation that's will be difficult to resolve a sh. i mean, i think ultimately, you know, i mean there is hope that, you know, the men's record would, would solve the situation. and i agree with what you're saying and i think and then you know, you have these extreme nationalists who seem to be dom name, ukrainian government, it's not clear how far they would go so well. you know,

he's not here and i say some jenny nichol. i go ahead champagne. yeah, i federalism is not a danger for ukraine properly understood. federalism would be ukraine salvation if every region could determine it's local cultural policy as it wanted, it would feel great. her attachment to the center, this is the than it does now. of the problem is one created artificially by here. this has been the history of federalism and federalist systems throughout the world . and ukraine really needs to learn from that experience, a global experience. okay, it drawing upon what, when nichol? i said he earned say, but does that do the people in power want a win win situation because his whole conflict is built on creating the other, creating the enemy. ok. what nicolai's that makes perfect sense. but as to mom has

as too much blood been spilled that too many problems created for them to say, hey let's, i'll sit down and sing, combine, because i can tell you that the u. s. map definitely doesn't want that to happen. they don't want a resolution of this. go ahead urns a futurist united states and then a peaceful resolution mister agreements. there is no interest on the currents ukrainian means. so has been your max go convenience, not 0. the no one's here for mass meetings, but even though those be a 2019, was not seen where soleski mad menswear is pretty

much go wrong in paris in 2019. and that initially, it agreed agreements about putting back troops on the line of contacts all the way for the whole lot of tracks. and then zelinski on a day says an issue. you know, what i'm going to go actually is all the i want to get all the troops from 3 locations. and later on i didn't see that. i wish to show that the currents ukrainian regime not only is not only not the guy. the gentleman. we have brought out of time, we just have to avoid south us at thea, august 2008 situation. everyone knows what i'm talking about. many thanks. so my guess in kingston, tulsa, and in london, and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, are to see you next time. remember,

cross topicals, we're allowing ourselves to be more efficient, quicker with our transactions. but with that comes a trade off. every device is a potential entry point for security attack. any machine can be, it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers. for them, there's one called selection in the office. it's not a matter of. if it happens, it's a matter of went to the narrative this year is climate change. climate change is being swapped out for we need growth

and it's being used to justify money printing. and just like printing money doesn't create gross printing. money doesn't solve climate change. and either it's been 30 years since the soviet union collapsed. mom, miss caldwell don't go to chill them on to what the problem yet nuclear you talk so . so shown where you also trust someone call it ukraine was one of the independent states that emerge from the ruins of a super bow. i'm doing awesome with most of your own little greens. come a little, i'm surely confusing. some of the yet and less new lease in west, nor did better one more law, a whole lot of the past 3 decades,

green light for ukraine. eye witnesses were cool. the events, there should be more or less of you to ship with. what i knew to know is that order, i'm not sure, but it be about 4 months with marvin windows and what other forces were at play. you have to do sort of them. you show in sure, mushy. in those them, you put in the kid what it i'm a current to when it shows up in was a little versions old. nice. take a look at ukraine. 30 years out. the gaining independence. you don't get a phone with us unless you mean, yeah, i get it live, but it will ethridge if you could be sure you must on hold for a.