ah, ah, a time time action or can senior what you're going underground coming up with the show as you k armed israeli forces continue to kill those protesting against illegal settlements. we ask a palestinian activist, allegedly hacked by israeli, and a so group, spyware. what options are left to palestinians when even peaceful resistance is met with repression and view a discretion advised after a ledger. torture is described cia black sites in court for the 1st time. we ask the guantanamo lawyer played by oscar winning. jodie foster about us torture and

whether the biden administration uses it today, all the similar going up in today's going underground. but for us to the revelation to the israeli ana, so group whose spyware is notorious for allegedly being used by the saudis to spy on mud. a journalist remark, shoji family also supplied spyware, used on palestinian activists. one of the groups allegedly spied on is the bison. center for research and development whose leader, who, by allah, beauty, joins me now from ramallah in palestine. thank you so much. who by for coming on i know jeff bezos of amazon, now there was a report said to you and rapid as about his phone. being hijacked by this israeli spyware, amnesty international tells us you've been hacked by it, but what was your reaction to hearing you were infected? and what was it a m p for file sent to your whatsapp? i did they do this? hello. well, actually, i was shocked. to know that it was really amazing for me, i always knew that there might be someone listening, but this kind of packing,

really vicious. they can manipulate your phone data, they can download content on upload content from it. so it's really vicious software to make phone calls and messages. everything for my part, it was 0, click attack, the other one, what they sent and they were able to send a message. i am message which is for i phone my device was on my phone and they were able to download on it this software in february this year and they were and this software is continually continuously manipulating my phone, them downloading data, or uploading it or changing things on the phone. so it was really amazing for me. yeah, these really is only allowed 3 g in the occupied territories to g. i understand in, in gaza defacto photos of your children were on the phone. as you say, they can put things onto the phone. in a sense, i mean, edward snowden, you know,

he fully to moscow for his own protection. after telling us, all our phones are bugged. why, why were you surprised? despite obama's denials at the time? of course, when snowden revealed it to us. well, it was only the timeline because, you know, he'd been under continuous from the israel government for the past 1015 years as civil society organizations, human rights organizations working and occupied palestinian territories. and this kind of attack is all it is just gives them indication how far they are willing to go. when we discover the infiltration our devices on the 16th of october. and of course, they knew from the 1st moment that we discovered this infection. and they tried to stigmatize us as terrorist organizations in order to justify this for

this is our privacy for the past 2 years, almost one. yeah. right now you can be arrested at any moment because yeah, been against the defense minister says you are a terrorist group like at m, e a, the defense for children, international union, and women's committee, the union of agricultural work committee. the un, obviously against this. you think there it's suspicious that the bugging by this group and the regulator of n s o in israel is been against why you should suddenly say your terrorist just shortly after the discovery that your phones have been act. well, it really amazing for us because if you look at the timeline that was by putting the wagon in front of the horse was like, okay, we did this because there are some guys ations what day you have, what kind of evidence the documents that they have supply has been the 2 plus $97.00 to magazine and, and they all did the investigative journalism on it. and it was turned out to be

a bogus document, that there was no complete evidence of dns. our partners for many years in governments have been offered this document. and after careful reviews has no concrete evidence against the organ. i have you seen at 73 page dorsey i seen by islands foreign minister. he said he wasn't convinced have you seen the 73 page the public online? so it's quite politically document. quite preposterous accusations. and anyone with the i think a sane way of thinking would say, okay, how can you say that this is evidence against organizations? so i think this is one of the main problems, not even a single theft and it is correct. or even if there are some facts that they have taken from our website or from our facebook pages, then these facts have been manipulated. and in ways that

a 3 year old would have done this kind of patient. obviously israel death denies that symptomatic of israel's fear. of the population front for the liberation of palestine. they get the b a l b than m. i was right there was a trying to link organizations with especially the p b. but we've been quite open quite well that we are non partisan organizations. we operate according to palestinians, we've been registered for 30 plus years. we have numerous or that external, etc. we have so many levels of scrutiny on us and being palestinians under occupation, operating and civil society partnering with international organizations and europe, pm, countries. and all of those levels of scrutiny from a, from a, from everything never found a single misuse of money or

a single misconduct by our organizations. so to come out of the blue, like there and accusing go guys, asians, of funding terrorism. they didn't even get the correct effects, correct? they said 200000000 euros over 70 years for the 6 organization. that's also not correct. and this is quite basic for everyone to see. we're a small center academic center. we have 7 employees. we publish studies, our annual budget is out on the course of somebody and dollars. so it's quite small . most of it goes for researchers and research purposes. as we understood later on. the reason for the declaration laws of our own assumptions is that to come out on the grid of human rights violations that and so, and this is also under the scrutiny, many gas is the regulator. so it's quite evident the close size and the relations

between of them. yeah, obviously wasn't forget, the occupation continues a 13 year old mom and dad was shot in the stomach east of nobliss just on sunday night. and violence is continuing. but in fan as to n s l group, they say as we stated in the past and a so group does not operate the product itself and we are not privy to the details of individuals monitored, thus throwing it back to benny gant. when you talk about the money that does that mean that you use your phone to talk to europe in union authorities, which means that technically, the israelis were spying on european union information and also talk to the u. s. embassy. i talked to european countries. i talked to diploma, i talked to humorous defenders in palestine and abroad, so all of that was compromised as part of the i don't know how many people have been put in danger because of a and i really have no idea about the extent of violation privacy on me and my

family, 1st of all and husband and father for 3 small kids, 7 years old with 5 year old. and we take it together on my phone. we have our moments together as a family and me and my wife and, and go together. we also take pictures on this phone, so it was really intrusive. i communicate with my brothers, my sisters outside my lawyers in the united states on different issues. i communicate with them over this one. so all of this has been doing the palestinian authority knows about this. i know mom and the bus is p a which happened gold elections, of course, in the crosshairs. because of this killing of ms. urbanatto about a student activist. they arrested you. is muhammad a bus complicit in this pegasus? spyware, in a way could here be blackmailed by his re lease, by putting information on it. i don't think that he is treated by any

better than any palestinian this treated. i don't think that they would give them a secret for a securities, open a thing, but this does not for my part exempt them from their responsibilities. of course, we've been out on the streets since the beginning of my friend is odd manner. in late june was also a candidate for the council legislative council elections. we've been demanding good justice. well, we've been demanding democratic change. we've been bending accountability for the security forces, violations, but the slides, a system between the embassy controlling for finance is committing human rights violations against them because they have 2 cases with quotes. and we also have the 1st officially, because we've been designated as

a zation of being arrested with being prosecuted, being vandalized offices. so the question on really in reality with living in here, i mean, was your 1st reaction. i know that there was a, this israel military, a 200 cyber warfare unit. the idea of say no record specific violations in the letter ever took place. there was a left where by whistleblower saying they would reserve it claiming to use data to extort blackmail and turn palestinians into collaborators. do you think this is affecting protest and defiance of israel violations of un security council? this kind of pegasus spyware could be used this way. i think that is involved in a deep operation that's been going on in years trying to do social engineering of the palestinian community. part of their social engineering also is what kinds of activities are allowed, what kind of activity, hello,

what kind of civil society organizations pinion is allowed. one time isn't. i think this process has been going on for years. they've used all the means and using pegasus and malicious man will affect our homes and our data and trying to get all the things that we are doing that also protected by law or defendant of civil society. we work according to dimensional material law, international law, and the palestinian laws. i want to just ration from the p a we where we submit our annual reports to it. and we operate with the highest levels of governance and accountability and of course is ability as possible, that transparency. so, and we actually challenge also there's really organizations that usually defaming

of like, and your monitor to have the same levels of governance and transparency as we have . but unfortunately this, this is one facet of a stimulus. we don't have any right code with the patient. there is no accountability to the crime committed against us whether they were cyber crime, whether they were against the national citizens, like my, like myself or a movie, was also a french citizen who has id vote. so he's now facing even the patient from the country. so it's quite a crazy context by booty by ability. these really is obviously deny any wrong doing with thank you. thank you. as you and i, so group after the break, the international rules based order of nato nations, we investigate us depravity after a guantanamo bay detainee describes torture. at c, i a black sites for the very 1st time in court. all of them all coming up and

bought 2 of going undergrad ah, a wrong one, i just don't know. i mean you have to figure out this thing becomes the after kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground. they would seem, with every passing day, were allowed to openly discuss fewer and fewer topics. the events on capitol hill on january 6th is one of them. what happened that day is a 3rd rail. was it a riot or an insurrection? even asking, this is inflammatory?

it shouldn't be. welcome back. a guantanamo court is heard a firsthand account of alleged torture. it ca black sites for the very 1st time allegations that have been condemned by senior u. s. military jurors. the so called high valued detain, emerge con, has been in caea custody for 18 years, and is the only u. s. resident to have been held at guantanamo bay, us detention camp. he's now been given a 26. he a jail sentence after admitting to tara charges under plea deal. joining me now from new york is nancy hollander the lawyer of to guantanamo bay detainees. and who was portrayed by the oscar winning actress, jodie foster and award winning film. the more attention. and in this segment, fewer discretion is advisors will be discussing the treatment of prisoners, which some may find disturbing. welcome back to going underground. last time you are on obviously with a the director of the martini him with the oscar winning. jodie foster that was

about mama to old sly. he get mo, guantanamo bay, and occupied cuba. still open a year into the biden administration. and apparently in the news, whether the by no administration will censor the lawyer for abu zubaydah completely innocent, which is another case which the supreme court is right hearing. who is magid con? my shouldn't con, i was picked up. you know, i don't remember he, i think he was very young. ultimately, he cooperated. he made a plea deal, but that was quite a few years ago. and then it took a long time for him to be sentenced. and he was sentenced by 8 members of the military military officers in marines, air force navy officers. and he need based on what his plea was and what he was charged with,

their obligation was to sentence him to at least 25 years 25 to i don't remember the top and 40. they sentenced him to 26 years. but then at the request of his defense counsel, ah, who asked that they asked for clemency. they did. and 7 and the 8 wrote a hand written magnificent letter saying this was a stain on america because he came, they didn't quite say he was tortured, but they said he, what high his treatment came close to the torture and other countries that we don't permit. ah, this is horrible and he should have clemency. is quite an astounding letter. i also he has and he is plea deal is secret. so we don't really know what it is and, but he could be released soon. this is the 1st have

a detainee is as testified on, on torture, you have the quote, a stain on the moral fiber of america. what, what is it, do we know what it is that these 7 offices and i have to say there's one descending opinion. i don't know what the other offices thought of jesse winnie. what kind of torture and tortures would knowing use of the supreme court and in the abs of a the case and of course was using the sentence committees investigation. what did the constitute? well, that that was the other significant may be more significant. part of this case is that his testimony was public, and the generally nobody's been allowed to say what happened to them in the black sites. um they're, they're what they say what my client has said to me. i'll borrow him. a mouse re, is classified. they've never been allowed to explain what their feelings are. this

is the 1st time that everyone got to hear, ah, in anywhere what these horrible things that were done. did them go back and look at the 16th century england and you'll know what happened to him. basically just horrific and that's what happened to the others in the black sites also. i mean it, so nothing has happened. i mean, this is just in the past few days, nothing has happened. that senate ripple which is the cia of illegal torture in 2014. and he says when he says clearly, the more he cooperated, the more he was tortured. that's what he says. yes, the whole thing is so is so too horrible. the senate report makes public some of what happened to our clients but not everything. and now more is coming out . and now i believe it will be. ready more and more difficult for the government, the united states to keep secret what happened to the other people than 911

people and my client. and of course there are 26 men in guantanamo who never been charged with any crime who had not pleaded guilty. they're just there as if some kind of permanent detention, which is totally anathema to the united states, will tone hassle into our system of just that law. president biden, obviously like the guy, he was vice president obama said he wanted to close it down. i mean, do you think he's swayed secretly, as it were by testimony say from one us, official, maryland, dawn of the us national clandestine service, claiming we've got to keep this torture secret from lawyers even to prevent terrorist being able to adapt their training techniques. obviously when we took them up much connie was a, when the apparent these, a minor korea, we don't know whether his confession to being a minor korea was affected by the torture. obviously. what do you make of that?

that's the u. s. clandestine service. you've gone talk about this has to be kept all secret. well, and that's ridiculous. i, it's ridiculous at this point. um and it was always ridiculous. they, they hid behind this as so sources and methods. this was a method that we couldn't tell them about because then they'll use o e. no torture is illegal besides being immoral, illegal under every circumstance. under every treaty treaties that the u. s. has signed the geneva conventions, the convention against torture. every single convention says and it's in the u. s. r. code it torture is illegal, under all circumstances. we've called this torture. obama said we tortured a few folks, which i thought was a horrible way to put it. these are people not folks. and now,

which should all come out and if it helps people not get the death penalty. so be it because we've already given harm to these people so badly that they suffer. they suffer now from a physical and mental pain every day of their lives. from this horrific torture. do you think one element of trying to keep it secret and keep guantanamo open? maybe is it is all that out there like you want it to be more than 50 black sites. reputedly lithuania, poland. poland was mentioned in the supreme court, remain the america if they're more than 50 it as huge foreign policy implications further united states of those countries, governments can be attacked by their own people for cooperating in this global campaign of torture. as you say, obviously, in contravention of any normal norms of international law. well, i can't talk about any countries where anybody was held um no,

but you don't think that the state department and the white house feel, we don't want this information out there because we're state when they, they never wanted it out. the, the problem with this was, there was no, any game they took people to these black sites. i was in by nature, they come public that they said he should never see the light of day and, but they never thought about it. they didn't think about what's going to happen if somebody finds out where these people are in, they plan to kill them all. i have no idea. i don't think they ever thought about it. they, when they went to guantanamo, they thought they're never be any court. never be any lawyers and they fought hard and still fight the united states constitution does not apply in guantanamo, they don't have the right to confrontation, which is a bed rock right in the u. s. i that detailed it in the film where josie foster, the act as yourself. but i mean,

you surprise all these after so many years of defense of these people. i mean the supreme court on that i was of a, the case. the lawyers cited them a ben affleck film, all go up to, to keep the, the cia torture camps in poland. seek. i mean, what do you meet these lawyers that are defending the government? are they differ? yes, yes, i do meet them and i have met them. i've met them in our case. in mohammed use case, i've met them in now last reese case. you know, they, they're still people in the, in the cia who believe that mohammed knew was a terrorist even though all the evidence is otherwise john gets just did a movie on this. mohammed knew it did a podcast called this american life, where he talked to to the people who interrogated him. and they still believe

what they believe. then they're just, it's like all the trumps years who are close to the facts. well, there's very little information in a donation, mainstream media, so gold. i mean in the evidence on much at cologne. is it the doctors were used by the u. s. torturers? well, yes, the ne, they were obligated to have a doctor present whenever they water boarded someone. and that person had to have the trait kit, you know, in case they had to go in through the trachea because they are drowning someone. and i don't know who those doctors are, but i believe that people who are tortures suffer, i believe they suffer. and one of these days, one of those doctors is going to say, i was the doctor who stood there and watched people being purposely. ready drowned

to this they, we don't know who they are and, but yes, and they don't want us to know who they are. and one element to the background of this is that some of them us public money was used to basically bite individuals for torture. in effect, well, well, there were leaflets dropped all over the southern part of pakistan and afghanistan . i have one of the leaflets may have a copy of one and they say turn in a terrorist get $5000.00. they say it in english and in an arabic and perhaps in or do and people were turned in. many of them about 85 percent of the people who ended up there were turned in as part of these bribes, basically by the united states. well, i, i don't know, maybe you know, whether this kind of torture is continuing today, whether they're a new cases that you will be defending in time off. you know,

that's not us miss will know. anyway, i suppose i should ask you for the most celebrated torture gaze here, at least according to you in the u. n. human rights council of julian assange. i mean them is bill marsh in london, in effect, and it's, it's a black site when it comes to the wikileaks phone can. well, you can say that, you know, he's been kept in solitary confinement as i understand it for quite a long time. solitary confinement is, is considered torture when someone is in it for a long time, even more than a month. the un wrap a tour on torture, said with this, this is basically a form of torture. so am, is he being not tortured? the way these people were, is he having water morning, is he being put in a little cage with an insect?

he's terrified, are busy being strong up and held up. we'll re disobey the allegation when it comes to i was a brighter illness. re also, most of them are they were allegedly rep to re hydration, which is not a medical term. and you know, it's not re hydration when commas, they were on strike, not eating. so they just shoot how mess up the rectum. i mean, this is rate, this is sodomy. are some implements were used in some cases, i believe, but yes, none. none of that has happened to julian of sanchez, but is it tortured to be locked up for so long alone and to have the government make the ridiculous argument? well, it's not solitary confinement because he has to see his lawyers. that's ridiculous, ridiculous, that's holland. thank you. sand that's up for the show. well,

we back on saturday, 20 years to the day you as president george w bush issued a military order setting up the terms to allow any foreign national to be potentially detained, tried and convicted just before to lead torture camp in occupied. cuba was opened up in guantanamo until then, keep a judge for social media and let us know what you think. president obama trump, in by you have not shut down one title. ah, all those driven by dreamers shaped bank concur some of those with there's things we dare to ask

in ah, who you want to be when you grow old hunger and suffering at the border between battery, some poland, where thousands of migrants including children, remain stranded in that date to enter the year, we tried very hard to get treatment to prove would, but we didn't get permission to leave the country. we received an offer for treatment from germany, but we were not allowed to leave this down. you sold your cars is valuable. thank years to get my you know right now we don't have anything. pasco planes, western countries including poland for the unraveling migrant chaos that the bell russian border also accuses russia being the mastermind behind the crisis.