ah, time action or attention you're watching, going underground, coming up with the show, as you k armed israeli forces continue to kill those protesting against the legal settlements. we ask a palestinian activist, allegedly hacked by israeli, and a so group, spyware. what options are left to a palestinians when even peaceful resistance is met with repression and view a discretion advised after a ledger. torture is described cia black sites in court for the 1st time. we ask the guantanamo lawyer played by oscar winning. jodie foster about us torture and whether the biden administration uses it today, all the similar, coming up in today's going underground. but for us to the revelation to the israeli anna, so group who spyware is notorious for allegedly being used by the saudis to spy on mud. a journalist jamarcus showed his family, all sorts of light. spyware used on palestinian activists. one of the groups allegedly spied on is the design center for research and development is leader who, by allah, beauty joins me now from ramallah in palestine. thank you so much bye for coming on

. i know jeff bezos of amazon, now there was a report, said to you and report to him about his phone being hijacked by this israeli spyware. amnesty international tells us you've been hacked by it, but what was your reaction to hearing you were infected? and what was it a m p for file sent to your whatsapp. how did they do this? hello. well, actually, i was shocked to know that it was really amazing for me. i always knew that there might be someone listening, but this kind of packing is really vicious. they can manipulate your phone data, they can download content on the upload content from it. so it's really vicious. so could make phone calls and messages, everything for my part, it was a 0 click it attack the other than what they sent. but the, they were able to send a message. i am message, which is on my phone,

my devices and my phone. and they were able to download on it. this is software in february of this year and they were, and this software is continually continuously manipulating my phone than downloading data or uploading it or changing things on the phone. so it was really amazing for me. yeah, these really is only allowed 3 g in the occupied territories to g. i understand in, in gaza defacto photos of your children were on the phone. as you say, they can put things on to the phone. in a sense, i mean, edward snowden, you know, he fully to moscow for his own protection. after telling us all our phones are bugged while you are so surprised. despite obama's denials at the time, of course, when snowden revealed it to us. well, that was only the timeline because you know, the continuous from the israel government for the past 1015 years as civil society organizations,

human rights organizations working and occupied palestinian territories. and this kind of attack is all it is just gives them indication how far they are willing to go. when we discover this infiltration our devices on the 16th of october. and of course they knew from the 1st moment that we discovered this infection. and they tried to stigmatize us as terrorist organizations in order to justify this for this vicious effect on our privacy for the past 2 years. when you have right now, you can be arrested at any moment because been against the defense minister says you are terrorist group like me, the defense for children, international union and women's committee, the union of agricultural work committee, the un obviously against this. you think there it suspicious that the bugging by

this group and the regulator of n s. so in israel is been against why you should suddenly say your terrorist just shortly after the discovery that your phones have been act well, amazing for us. because if you look at the timeline, it was by putting the wagon in front of the horse. it was like, okay, we did a nice ations. what day you have, what kind of evidence. the documents that they have supplied has been lea 2 plus $97.00 to magazine and, and they all did the investigative journalism on it. and it was turned out to be a bogus, the governments have been offered this document and after careful reviews, it has no concrete evidence. i guess that was going to have you seen at 73 page dorsey i seen by island foreign minister. he said he wasn't convinced. have you seen the 73 page? awesome. well actually it became public online, so it's quite ridiculous document. quite preposterous accusations and anyone

for i think a sane way of thinking would say, okay, how can you say that this is evidence against the organization? so i think this is one of the main problems, not even a single therapist is correct or even if there are some facts that they can take him from our website or from our facebook page is then these facts have been manipulated and interpreted in ways that i think in this 3 year old would have done this kind of interpretation. obviously israel did denies that symptomatic of israel fear of the population front for the liberation of palestine. they get the b, f l b. then i'm asked right that was there trying to link organizations with especially the p b, but we've been quite open quite well that we are non partisan. we operate according

to palestinians. we've been registered for 30 plus years. we have numerous others. and so we have so many levels of a skinny and under occupation operating civil society bothering with international organizations and bureau pm countries. and all of those levels of scrutiny from the p a from everything never found. a single misuse of money or a single misconduct by our organizations. so to come out of the blue and accusing go guys asians of funding terrorism, they didn't even get the correct effects, correct? they said 200000000 euros over 70 years for the 6 organization. that's also not correct. and this is quite basic for everyone to see. we're a small center academic center. we have 7 employees. we publish studies. our annual budget is around the course that'll come $1000000.00. so it's quite small. most of

it goes for researchers and research purposes as we understood later on. the reason for that the correlation laws of our own assumptions is that to cover up on the grave, human rights violations that and so, and this is also under a scrutiny, many gas is the regulator for so it's quite a close ties and the relation between an esl under israeli government. yeah, obviously wasn't forget, the occupation continues a 13 year old mom and dad that was shot in the stomach east of nablus just on sunday night and violence is continuing. but in fairness to n s l group, they say, as we stated in the past and our group does not operate the product itself, and we are not privy to the details of individuals monitored does throwing it back to benny gant. when you talk about the money that does that mean that you use your phone to talk to europe in union authorities means that technically,

the israelis was spying on european union information and also talk to the u. s. embassy. i talked to european countries. i talked to diploma and talked to humorous defenders in palestine and abroad. so all of that was compromised and i don't know how many people have been put in danger because of a little abroad. and i really have no idea about the extent of violation of privacy on on me, on my family. first of all, i'm husband and father for 3 small kids. and 7 years old, a 25 year old. when we take yourself together on my phone, we have our moments together as a family and me and my wife and, and go together. we also take pictures on this phone. so it was really intrusive. i communicate with my brothers,

my sister's outside my lawyers in the united states on different issues. i communicate with them over this one. so all of this has been doing the palestinian authority knows about this. i know moment about his p a. we haven't gold elections, of course, in the crosshairs, because of this killing of needs are, but not to about a student activist. they arrested you. it's mohammad abbas complicit in this pegasus spyware. in a way could even blackmail by his re lease, by putting information on it. i don't think the p 80 is treated by any better than any palestinian tweeted. i don't think that they would give them a secret for a security operating. but this does not for my father exempt them from their responsibilities. of course, we've been out in the streets since the beginning of my friend has all been in late . june was also a for the counselors of council elections. we've been demanding good justice far.

we've been demanding demographic change. we've been bending accountability for the security forces, violations, but a system between the embassy controlling finance is committing human rights violations against them. i currently have 2 cases waiting, embarrassed in court. and we also have the ab, because we've been designated as a zation of being arrested, being prosecuted, being vandalized offices. so the question on william reality of living and here, i mean, was your 1st reaction. i know that there was a, this israeli military, a 200 cyber warfare unit, the idea of say no record specific violations in the letter ever took place. there was a letter by whistle blowers saying they would reserve a claim to use data to extort black mail and turn palestinians into collaborators.

do you think this is affecting protest and defiant of israel? violations of un security council? this kind of pegasus spyware could be used this way. i think that israel is involved in a deep operation that's been going on in years trying to do social engineering of the palestinian community. part of their social engineering also is what kind of activities are allowed. what kind of activities are allowed? what kind of civil society and own good self organization for palestinian is allowed one time isn't. i think this process has been going on for years. they've used all the means and using pegasus and malicious man. well, that affects our phones and our data and trying to get all the things that we are doing that also protected by law to of civil

society. we work according to international humanitarian law, international law, and the palestinian laws. i want to just ration from the p are we where we submit the annual reports to it. and we operate with the highest levels of governance and accountability and of course ability as possible for transparency. so, and we actually challenge also a organizations that usually defaming of like and g o monitor to have the same levels of governance and transparency as we went. unfortunately, this is one percent of opinions. we don't have any right call with the patient. there is no accountability to the crimes committed against us whether they were cyber crime, whether they were against national citizens, like my, like myself or a movie, was also

a french citizen who has his id vote. so he's now facing even the quotation from the country. so it's quite crazy, this context by booty by ability, these really is obviously deny any wrong doing with thank you. thank you. as you and i, so group after the break, the international rules based order of nato nations, we investigate us depravity after in guantanamo bay detainee describes torture, et c, i black sites for the very 1st time in court. all this all coming up about to have going on with ah, a new

fresh is emerge, we don't have with the we don't have a back seat. the whole world leaves to take action to be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better. we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great to response has been massive, so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with oh ah, welcome back. a guantanamo court is heard

a firsthand account of alleged torture it cia black sites for the very 1st time allegations that have been condemned by senior u. s. military jurors. the so called high valued detain, emerging con, has been in ca, custody for 18 years, and is the only u. s. resident to have been held at guantanamo bay, us detention camp. he's now been given a 26. he a jail sentence after admitting to tara charges under plea deal. joining me now from new york is nancy hollander the lawyer of to guantanamo bay detainees. and it was portrayed by the oscar winning actress jodie foster and award winning film the more italian. and in this segment view a discretion is advisors will be discussing the treatment of prisoners which some may find disturbing. welcome back to going underground. last time you were on obviously with a the director of the martini him with the oscar winning. jodie foster that was about mama to old sly, he get mo guantanamo bay and occupied cuba. still open

a year into the biden administration. and apparently in the news, whether the by no administration will censor the lawyer for albert zabeda completely innocent, which is another case which the supreme court is right hearing. who is magid con? my shouldn't con i was picked up. you know, i don't remember. i think he was very young. ultimately, he cooperated. he made a plea deal, but that was quite a few years ago. and then it took a long time for him to be sentenced. and he was sentenced by 8 members of the military military officers in marines, air force, navy officers. and he the, based on what his plea was and what he was charged with. their obligation was to sentence him to at least 25 years 25 to i don't remember the top and 40. they

sentenced him to 26 years. but then at the request of his defense counsel, ah, who asked that they asked for clemency. they did. and 7 of the 8 wrote a hand written magnificent letter saying this was a stain on america. um he came, they didn't quite say he was tortured, but they said his what high his treatment came close to the torture in other countries that we don't permit. ah, this is horrible and he should have clemency. ah, is quite an astounding letter. i also he has and he is plea deal is secret. so we don't really know what it is and, but he could be released soon. this is the 1st have a detainee is as testified on, on torture, you have the quote, a stain on the moral fiber of america. what,

what is it, do we know what it is that these 7 offices and i have to say there's one descending opinion. i don't know what the other offices thought of just so many. what kind of torture and tortures would know being used in the supreme court and in the abs may the case of course was using the senate committees investigation. what did it constitute? well that that was the other significant may be more significant. part in this case is that his testimony was public and me generally nobody's been allowed to say what happened to them in the black science. um they're, they're what they say what my client has said to me. abraham a mouse re, is classified. they've never been allowed to explain what their feelings are. this is the 1st time that everyone got to hear, ah, in anywhere what these horrible things that were done. did them go back and look at

the 16th century england and you'll know what happened to him. basically just horrific and that's what happened to the others in the black sites also. i mean, so nothing has happened. i mean, this is just in the past few days, nothing has happened. that senate ripple, which is the cia of illegal torture in 2014. and he says, he says clearly the more he cooperated, the more he was tortured. that's what he says. yes, the whole thing is, so is so too horrible. the senate report makes public some of what happened to our clients, but not everything. and now more is coming out and now i believe it will be more and more difficult for the government of the united states to keep secret what happened to the other people, the $911.00 people and my client. and of course, there are 26 men in guantanamo who never been charged with any crime who had not

pleaded guilty. they're just there as a some kind of permanent detention which is totally anathema to the united states. well, hold on. hello to our system of justice law pres, abiding, obviously like good guy. he was vice president obama's that he wanted to close it down. i mean, do you think he's swayed secretly, as it were by testimony say from one us official marilyn dawn of the us national clandestine service, claiming we've got to keep this torture secret from lawyers even to prevent terrorists being able to adapt that training techniques. obviously when we took him much, connie was a, when he apparently is a minor courier. we don't know whether his confession to being in mind. the courier was affected by the torture of his me. what do you make of that? as the u. s. clandestine service, you've got talk about this has to be kept all secret. well, that's ridiculous. i,

it's ridiculous at this point. um and it was always ridiculous. they, they hid behind this as so sources and methods. this was a method that we couldn't tell them about because then they'll use no torture is illegal besides being immoral, illegal under every circumstance. under every treaty treaties at the u. s. has signed the geneva conventions of the convention against torture. every single convention says and it's in the u. s. r. code it torture is illegal, under all circumstances. we've called this torture. obama said we tortured a few folks, which i thought was a horrible way to put it. these are people not folks. and now, which should all come out and if it helps people not get the death penalty. so be

it because we've already given harm to these people so badly that they suffer. they suffer now from a physical and mental pain every day of their lives. from this horrific torture. do you think one element of trying to keep it secret and keep guantanamo open? maybe. is it? it is all that out there like you want it to be more than 50 black sites. reputedly lithuania, poland. poland was mentioned in the supreme court. remain the america, if they're more than 50 it as huge foreign policy implications for the united states of those countries. governments can be attacked by their own people for cooperating in this global campaign of torture. as you say, obviously, in contravention of any and normal norms of international law. well, i can't talk about any countries where anybody was held um, no budget. you don't think that the state department and the white house feel, we don't want this information out there because we're say, what made,

they never wanted it out. the, the problem with this was, there was no, any game. they took people to these black sites. i was in by nature, they come public that they said he should never see the light of day and, but they never thought about it. they didn't think about what's going to happen. if somebody finds out where these people are in, they plan to kill them all. i have no idea. i don't think they ever thought about it. they, when they went to guantanamo, they thought there never be any court, never be any lawyers and they fight hard. and still fight the united states constitution does not apply in guantanamo, they don't have the right to confrontation, which is a bed rock right in the u. s. i that detailed it in the film with jodie foster, the act as yourself. but i mean, you surprise all these after so many years, a defense of these people. i mean, the supreme court on that i was of a,

the case the lawyers cited them a ben affleck film, all go up to, to keep the, the cia torture camps are in poland. seek. i mean, what do you meet these lawyers, the defending the government or are they different? yes. yes, i do meet them and i have met them. i've met them in our case in mohammed use case, i've met them in now last reese case. you know, they, they're still people in the, in the cia who believe that mohammed knew was a terrorist even though all the evidence is otherwise john gets just did a movie on this. mohammed knew it did a podcast called this american life, where he talked to 2 of the people who interrogated him. and they still believe what they believe. then they're just,

it's like all the trumps jurors who are closed to the facts. well, there's very little information in a donation, mainstream media, so gold, i mean in the evidence on logic cologne, is it the doctors were used by the u. s. torturers? well, yes, the ne, they were obligated to have a doctor present whenever they water boarded someone. and that person had to have a trade kit, you know, in case they had to go in through the trachea, because they are drowning someone. and i don't know who those doctors are, but i believe that people who are tortures suffer. i believe they suffer. and one of these days, one of those doctors is going to say, i was the doctor who stood there and watched people being purposely. ready drowned to this they, we don't know who they are and, but yes, and they don't want us to know who they are. and one element to the background of

this is that some of them us public money was used to basically bite individuals for torture. in effect, well, well, there were leaflets dropped all over the southern part of pakistan and afghanistan . i have one of the leaflets may have a copy of one and they say turn in a terrorist get $5000.00. they say it in english and in an arabic and perhaps in or do, and people were turned in. many of them about 85 percent of the people who ended up there were turned in as part of these bribes, basically by the united states. well, i, i don't know, maybe you know, whether this kind of torture is continuing today, whether they're a new cases that you will be defending and talk, you know, they told us not us will know everywhere. i suppose i should ask you for the most

celebrated torture gaze here, at least according to you in the u. n. human rights council of julian assange. i mean them is, is bill marsh in london, in effect. and it's, it's our, our black site. when it comes to the wiki leaks out here, where you can say that, you know, he's been kept in solitary confinement as i understand it for quite a long time. solitary confinement is, is considered torture. when someone is in it for a long time, even more than a month, the un wrap a tour on torture, said with this, this is basically a form of torture. so l is he being not tortured. the way these people were, is he having water morning, is he being put in a little cage with an insect? he's terrified, obviously, being strong up and held up. we'll raise the allegation when it comes to i was

a plaza l na, sri also most of them are they were allegedly recto re hydration, which is not a medical term. and you know, it's not re hydration when. ready hummus, they were on strike, not eating. so they just shoot comments up the rectum. i mean, this is ray. maybe this is sodomy. ah, some implements were used in some cases i believe. but oh, yes, none. none of that has happened to julian of sanchez, but is it torture to be locked up for so long alone and to have the government make the ridiculous argument? well, it's not solitary confinement because he has to see his lawyers. that's ridiculous, ridiculous, that's a holiday. thank you. sand that's after the show will be back on saturday, 20 years to the day you as president george w bush issued a military order,

setting out the terms to allow any foreign national, 2 me potentially detain, tried and convicted just before to lead torture camp in occupied cuba was opened up in guantanamo until then keep a judge for social media and let us know what you think. president obama trump invited have not shut down one time. ah, thing would seem, with every passing day, were allowed to openly discuss fewer and fewer topics. the events on capitol hill on january 6 is one of them. what happened that day is a 3rd rail. was it a riot or an insurrection? even asking, this is inflammatory? it shouldn't be with

do you want to be when you grow old with hunger and suffering at the border between bella, roosts and poland, where thousands of migrants including children, remained stranded while trying to enter the a year. a group of nobel prize winners is developing human rights organizations are allowed immediate access to the area, a display of arrogance and impunity. the russian foreign minister lasts the use approach to the unfolding migrant crisis. and in other news, a world renowned lawyer says a recent guantanamo trial described as a stain on the moral fiber of america, could hopefully set a precedent for other victims of abuse at the hands of the us agents. this is the 1st time that everyone got kicked here in anywhere what these horrible things that were done to them. now i've been.