a my living of course, in our enlightened age, it's the rationalist for how we can manage and break free from the misconceptions and the superstitions of the ass illuminating to future with the help of the scientific method. but the one you've got q is a man and a perilous one. to discuss that i'm now joined by sheltering author of the science delusion and science and spiritual practices. dr. shelldrick, it's a great on a great privilege for me to talk to you. thank you very much for your time. good to be with you. speaking about timely hanson and 70 years ago, in late september, i had a chance to interview my intellectual world, the time professor richard dawkins officer of the da collision. and one of the world's most renowned, the atheists who also happened to inspire a whole lot of books with rewards, delusion in the titles in moving by the way, yours. we have to give professor dawkins credit. he's done more for the soul

searching movement than the most have. well, i think by pushing forward his uncompromising and aggression base, here's a new so to promote 2 arguments and provide responses to the title of my book. wasn't actually chosen by me, but by publishers who sold books by playing off the title of his book to go through . this would be more clearly recognizable as an argument about the cherry lesson, but my motions for rushing to vote was not ready. dawkins wish deep critique or see materialist, well, a few which has come to dominate so much more than thinking. but if i understand before it came to that point, if your life of pondering be critique of materialism, you have your own. richard dawkins type space for some 1015 years, i suppose somewhere until you and middle age. what happened then?

what made you leave that domino by certainty? well, 1st of all, i always had doubts about the materialist approach scientifically. i'm a biologist and i think simply to understand plants and animals, we need more than simply molecular biology and change. we are organizing principles in life, which i was working on. technically, in my research at cambridge. so 1st i had done science. then i travel to india, i was doing con tropical rain forest tons in missouri. and i traveled through india on the way. and i opened my mind amazingly. i mean, to see a whole civilization with a completely different world view where weston materialistic case years and seem rather shallow and threat that radio my eyes and it was really exposure to eastern thought. and then i took up yoga and meditation. that was really what began

to open me up so i don't understand you correctly that it for you. it was a more sort of gradual step. by step process of jackie, your old message could not find a satisfactory answer rather than by saying and granting experience that made the previous system unsustainable. yes, i would say it was a gradual process and i'm in my son's tuition. i extend processed by looking at the fundamental assumptions of with her sons. i'm not home to science. in fact, i'm totally chris and i spent my whole career as a research scientist. but i think science is being restricted by on necessary. most of the reason i'm asking this is because i have the letter experience sort of coming face to face. if it's something that i can explain and at the same time

could explain away. and it was very similar to acquiring and different sounds like something. in addition to i, side valley, etc. and i think without this sort of rapture in my consciousness, i'm not sure i would be able to read your books today the way i'm reading them. now . i think i would be just a skeptical as most of your critics. so i wonder if you want can even blame the rationalist for sticking to that class because i think they simply haven't had access to another haven't had access yet, hopefully to another way of experiencing reality. well actually i think most of them have, i think most people are any rationalists from 9 to 5 on monday to friday. you know, the official world view. so university were in business and government, people and education. people take out the fast food, but into weekends and holidays, you know, people, at least in britain,

love getting back to nature and walking in the country side. and many have pet dogs and cats which have psychic abilities that go beyond their own class. there are no millions of people who are taking psychedelic and true psychedelic of experience. also states of consciousness, also many and have a spiritual experiences through a spontaneous events like near death experiences and also millions and millions of people now meditate. even if they're racist. they not meditate, and that gives access to different states of consciousness from the normal rather limited ones that were brought up with one of the most of a persuasive arguments that are reaching dockins any, at least for me, was that eventually coon acknowledged people of ancient religious people should treated miss back, leave it open, leave it as it is, and not try to put everything on god. and i get it from your book that you believe

that many scientists are sort of doing a similar thing. they declaring everything or further investigation. is that how it looks to you yesterday? so i think, you know, science has become incredibly dogmatic. i mean, richard dawkins himself is a good example of this. she's extremely dogmatic about certain things and i think that this is very bad for science. a lot of believers in scientism occurs religion, so being dogmatic, but in my experience, most religious people, i know not told magics. i'm and anger and myself and they're usually quite monday, but many people who believe in scientists are incredibly dogmatic. so i think this situation is almost the reverse of the standard caricature or housebreaking matches your experiences in india. and my history led me to believe that

western world tends to be more detail oriented, more focused on the incremental r, as opposed to let's say, some of the eastern approaches we see details as part of a bigger hole. do you think scientists, the way you see is primarily latin creature, or is it more universal? well, we have exposure to the rest of the world of trouble in china is, you know, officially, atheist and officially materialist. it still has marxist ideology. and so there's a huge country with an enormous importance in the world which has been converted to western type. hey, listen to mark central was weston. and, and so i would say that this through sons, technology and scientific education. this materialist act attitude is not being

taught in schools in universe just absolutely everywhere, not just in the west. now let's go over some of the documents that you mentioned in your book, the science solution. if 1st one do you consider in the assumption that nature is mechanical and machine like with our dear friend richard dawkins, we are all lumbering ago. but apart from this complex before romans once on settling ad here about base assumption. well, 1st of all, is any metaphor is not approvable, testable scientific theory, and it may be more appropriate to think of the whole universe. for example, as an organism rosen machine. in the 17th century, they used clockwork models of the planet says a model of the universe kind of clock universe. but the big bang, where the universe starts very small, expands and grows and forms new,

more structures within it. that's much more like in developing embryo than any machine we know off. so i think that this machine metaphor is, can be helpful in some ways, but is very distorting. if we apply it to the hood of nature, it's also very anthropocentric and humans machines and to protect the succession of ours on to the heart of nature. leads to a false view of nature. and i think as one reason we have the climate crisis, we're because we felt hostile, separate from nature, and haven't seen the us as a living organism with our own life is speaking about this as a sanctioning approach. yeah, i think the whole science is based on the assumption of, you know, starting the universe with an intention of understanding what it can do for us or what it can do. she asked, so in a way, it's a very self centered approach. and then not that objective as some of the

scientists would claim because anything you take any object or self organizing system you take, it has sort of a if leaf through reality, within its own continuum, a sense of a scale of time that for example, a tree has is very different from one of a mouse or one of the volcano and yet the all yeah, protein, all of them through our very humans reception of time and need. yes, i think is it is very and for the century, i mean, some branches of science a less to do with human utility. i mean, of studying distant galaxies isn't particularly useful. and so there are still parts of sons where the quest for truth is to a very important part of it is not all just value to us here. but the reason scientists get funding is usually because they pretend of their research is going to be useful. they have to pretend issues if it isn't not many of the dogs here dealing with concerns that the matter and nature of consciousness,

and specifically whether a human consciousness is the only one around. and it's kind of ironic, isn't it? that most of the pioneering ideas in these fields nowadays, coming off in the field of biology, all still the biology, all that say psychology, but from the field of physics. why do you think there's a says who are supposed to be dealing with an inanimate universe? all of a sudden, so interested in consciousness. well then of all interest and consciousness bit, i think that so it sounds them got interesting because in quantum ferry, there's an emphasis on the importance of the observer and what you can observe and how you can nourish it's more sophisticated in physics. this discussion of episteme ology, how we know what we know as then he says in most other fields of science. but i think that this debate about consciousness is actually leading both as,

as biologists and philosophers in new directions at the moment, which is quite exciting because the standard materialist assumption is that matter, throughout the entire vast is totally unconscious. except for matter inside our brains. and maybe the branch of a few other animal species. however, the growth of pan cycles, some b, i go to some kind of consciousness within throughout nature is not becoming a quite widely discussed you. it's not a new philosophy. after all is very similar to traditional animism in many traditional cultures, but is becoming intellectually respectable, at least in the english speaking world. and this is a new development within science and i think rather than exciting and rather welcome one. ok, well perhaps i shall take, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will get back to be fascinating discussion. just him on stacey. ah.

join me every thursday on the alex salmon. i'll be speaking to guess in the world. politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. a quicker with the actions. but with that comes a trade off. every device is a potential entry point for security of any machine. it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers with it's not

a matter of if it happens, it's a matter of when i am welcome back to with shelldrick author of the science delusion and science and spiritual practices. sheldrake, before the great me on the subject of consciousness and the small g, and i quoted probably in the beginning, and i'm going to indulge myself what i'm sad that another decides that question for men to consider is whether he's connected to something he or she is connected to something according to young, the denial or the lack of that connection was behind, may need ailments be so we seem to be multiplying in our time despite all the

developments of more than madison. do you see any connection between the crime rates of depression, neurosis and our belief in science? yes, i think there's a clear relationship. i mean it so, so much belief in science is a message that's the problem. but belief in the ideology of materialist funds. where says that the universe is made up of unconscious matter. there's no purpose in the universe or new condition or indeed in human life, or isolated in the privacy of ourselves, separated from other people and from nature. this is a very separative, individualistic, few, i've asked mystic individuals in of pointless universe. it's literally a depressing world view. and for those who take it seriously, it's not surprising that it needs to depression. i'm not everyone who believes in

it gets depressed, but for the whole culture to be based in this way of looking at the world, i think means that depression is likely to be and demick in secular mountain societies. and indeed, there are millions and millions of people on anti depressant pills, i guess from your book that it's pretty well established that religious and spiritual practices. can she be in an immeasurable way of how not only in terms of them blood pressure advocacy. but even then brain architecture as well as on the opposite, you know, people who deny themselves the psychic dimension. they tend to have some more like a semantic. now, the question i wanted to ask you in connection to this is whether it is really all about the evidence, because the evidence is there for those who need them. and the thing that those preaching in the town hall of science cuz i didn't really ask the items well, no,

usually not those here to preach and the template santos, a true believers. highly committed to this well, few songs and i recall scientific fundamentalists, they know an incidence about psychic phenomena or about the value of spiritual practices because it goes against our world view. but the evidence is very strong. spiritual practices and religious practices make people happier, healthier, and live longer on average. and there's also a great deal of evidence for things like to let to see the dogs and cats picking up humans intentions. people anticipating who's going to ring on the telephone before the call comes and things like the sense of being stat knowing when someone's looking at too well these things, both cone experiences, most people have experienced them personally. and also does a great deal of scientific evidence of their radio. and yet people like richard

dawkins actually deny that they happen and dismiss those who do research on the charlatans. i know this for a fact because i had a conversation with richard dawkins on these exact subjects, and he actually said to me, i'm not interested in discussing the evidence. it didn't fit his world view, which of course is a very on scientific attitude. i'm bringing back a small into because we know from history that most cultures understood the deep psychological need to connect a little man to b universe by the needs of meaning. and our super developmental function may make 5 that may be missing, but the need is i project on you. i didn't call you would say that it's an in thing is still there. even if it's not sure, even if there is no connection, it's been built on that and the big universe when it makes sense to term as if it

show a simply a humanistic presence to make people, you know, better psychologically back. well, we don't need to pretend that we're connected to the whole universe. i mean, even according to regular sons, you know, we're major solid us. the whole universe is interrelated into connect to the gravitational and electro magnetic fields. do actually, and to relate everything. the real question is whether there's a consciousness beyond the human level and whether we can relate to that is the whole universe totally unconscious or underlying nature within nature is a consciousness will many forms of consciousness. that's the traditional view and i think it's more reasonable view myself. i think that many people actually experience this connection with a greater consciousness, not as a matter of pretence, but as a matter of experience through spontaneous mystical experiences through meditation,

through spiritual practices. and my books on spiritual practices deals with 7 different bombs, including pilgrimage singing and chanting and sacred dancing. connecting with nature meditation. these are all practices that many people do, which often lead to a sense of our in conscience being part of something greater than ourselves. this is a direct experience if you experience it, you know, it's true, you're not pretending it's true. and the experience, i think is more important science is supposed to be based on experience is supposed to be empirical and to deny our own experience in the name of dogma is not being very scientific in my opinion. well, in fact, i think people like that has a pretty open about using certain practices to alter that. i think it's better than medication i for mushrooms and i think would be after is newman off of the science

of bron consciousness, which is a center for just experience. but trying to get us without you know, all the trappings of religious dogma. isn't it ironic that the atheist would be chasing the very thing that religion i was responsible for, for so many so, so many years. but i think that's a very interesting point. and i think good, so unique mountain situation that we owe starvation. like dawkins simply dismissed religious and spiritual practices, nustar atheist, like sam harris. and i actually want these experiences of the transcendent, but then want to re interpret them or explain them away. so i think they're in rather unstable position because i think if they persist with having these experiences through scientists,

i've been in meditation and they may reach the point where they feel. do i really need to stick with this material? is talk more. oh, can i just let go over some except that there's a greater consciousness of which my own consciousness is part. i suspect that if they persist with it long enough, they'll realize that the ideology they've committed to is no longer a necessary part of their lives. i heard you say something that we are on a, on behalf of the major paradigm shift from a mechanistic material, isn't here and more than scientists near the world. and that i would love to believe that, but the scatter in me, sad material isn't, has very powerful beneficiaries within the konami in particular or assistance at dc powers that be on this planet with embrace such a shift, given that business as usual, would not be sustainable after that, well,

business as usual is already changing for environmental reasons. even within the maturity as paradigm is quite clear that it's on sustainable. and so the people who are in favor of taking action to deal with the climate crisis and not simply religious people, all spiritual people, a lot, a perfectly normal scientific rationalistic people also agree with that. so i don't think that's necessarily a problem because it's august for our own survival. we need to change the way we live. if people become more or have a greater sense of connection, for example, there's a revival of pilgrimage going on here in britain amendment. and indeed, all of your of it, so santiago to composter has, has led the way in a huge revive the pilgrimage. even for people who are not, we're let us know that in itself doesn't subvert. the materialist

world least doesn't submit this economic system. chris program spend money, they have to stay in places. they have drinks in pub, se each and restaurants. there's no particular reason why that should be opposed by the system and, and there's no particular reason why meditation should be opposed. in fact, there are also to people who got meditation businesses. now we have only a few minutes left and i do want to ask you about telepathy. i know that you see it as a normal rather than our normal means of communication between members and one animal group or even different species. your book about the dogs and that owners is very, very interesting. i highly recommend anyone but good asking about my cat because i haven't very at times and he seems to know every time i i'm approaching my house at least 20 minutes in advance. and this is how my kid understands that it's

time for him to clean the room. i mean we, we make all sorts of jokes around or something, but it happens almost every day and, and different times of the day. and i get it from your book that it's a pretty recon phenomenon. there's nothing particularly rare about it. no, well this, you know, millions of dogs and cats are doing this on a regular basis about we've done surveys about 50 percent of dogs and about 30 percent of cats seem to anticipate the arrival of their owners. and in a few cases, it's just a minute or 2 before they could be hearing their footsteps approaching. but in many cases, like orange cat, this long before they could have heard or smelled the past in coming, especially if they're traveling by public transport or by unfamiliar vehicles. we've done film experiments showing this is a real phenomenon. and i just think it is

a normal natural part of animal behavior. and my cat is very, very social. and i think he's very attached, i would say, except for we attached to me at the discovery of your book, something that you gave to me is that is this bond, this attachment that actually can ship it to this sort of transference or whatever it is that i'm getting it right. yes. so smoothly to left the c occurs between closely boundary people between animals and people that has to be bonded and in the human realm. it happens for example, between mothers and babies. i've done studies on telepathy between nursing mothers and babies between best friends, between lovers, between parents and children, between coast colleagues. it doesn't happen with random strangers. so i think it's very much to do with our bonds and i think in fact, any explanation of telepathy has to take into account the fact that it depends on

bonds between closely connected people. i have to ask a question that i often ask myself when encountering such phenomena. where does one draw the line between experiencing something an ordinary and a frame? yes. can you personally tower it? is she you mean all sorts of people out here? those majority of people who have telepathic experiences, knowing who's calling on the fern, feel l. all people you feel they're being looked at a perfectly normal and these are path in normal natural responses. i think some people just gets free. nick, who have voices think that the voices of telepathic, when actually they may not be. some people paranoid st. pete, looking at them all the time when they're not to say these are like pass luxury exaggerations of water more normal and wide stretch phenomena. bear

suddenly i don't think dog's name when people are coming home feeling that somebody you know is about to ring. you elisa certainly not symptoms of psycho pathology or in vast majority of cases, but also we have to live there. thank you very much for the fascinating discussion, but thank you and thank you for watching sir again. lastly, by all the part ah

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what you're saying. the migrant crisis on the east in florida is the result of the blokes military campaigns in the middle east. thousands remains stranded at the poland deliveries frontier who look over it. we must not forget where the micro crisis originated from is better is really the 1st country to deal with these problems. no piece of reasons that what creates it by western countries themselves, including european, once you as the pales code, once again, we're jack, joy, biden's, national vaccine mandate for companies to get stuff jobs, a service personnel and government workers join the backlash. and we look at how western military's are struggling to fight culture was among their ranks and the u . s. marine corps.