ah, hello, and welcome to cross stock where all things are considered on peter lavelle. b. e in bare room, red odds over illegal immigration. guess what means the higher cards. also, washington is again increasing tensions within ukraine. is the bike administration looking to score a foreign policy victory to deflect from crises at home? ah, to discuss these issues and more on joined by my guess, marcus papadopoulos in london, he's a historian analyst, an author of the book, arise or the return of russia to world politics. and here in moscow we have maxine, shoot off. he is director of the center for advanced american studies at moscow state institute of international relations. are gentleman cross stock rules and the fact that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate it. i know with marcus in london, well the story with in poland is gaining attention and intensity by the

way, about the legal immigration. now the, what the you is saying, and particularly the polls is that these people are being dumped on to them. but brussels is very hesitant for orders and not to speak of walls here, but they're more and more people coming to their roots is saying these people are transiting here. there's something much more play here. and i think it is. is that the, the lucas anchor, the russian president, he's basically saying you want to resolve this issue. you have to talk to me. don't keep talking to open, says he doesn't want to talk about it. it's really there is this forcing an issue for the european union to actually start recognizing that the arrows has legitimate interest here. because we've seen that they don't want to have any kind of dialogue, your thoughts, markets go ahead. first of all, allow me to clarify

a very important matter. there is only one migrant crisis angle in europe, and that is a migrant crisis, which is and it's now caused by america, britain and france have in the stabilize both libya and syria through having supported islamist terrorists in both countries, which has resulted in well over 1000000 migrants enter in europe, most of whom have not come from libya and syria, but turn into the tension on the polish russian border. the g, a strategic dimensions to that are as follows. america and britain are attempting to ferment civil unrest in reverse, or it's historic in a circle. name is bella. russia, in the hope that fermenting civil unrest in the country will assist them in their

quest to initiate a crew in bella, russia against president, alexander lucas. shank, that towards wrestler, russia from moscow, is all bit and place it in the west, which would result in the western border of the russian federation from the old city to the black sea. being entirely encircled and close by countries which are in the west of it, that would be a tremendously dangerous situation for russia now was the chances of western occurring are negligible, none the less, any thing is possible. there is also another dimension to this america and britain on looking for a pretext to continue increasing nate of presence along with the russian

odor, both soldiery and weaponry. i'm bi election backed up russia back to by russia is attempting to stabilize the european union, the stabilize nato. by allowing the migrants illegal migrants to enter europe. that says as a pretext for increasing his presence in the east. and what has happened? well, just in the last few days, peter, british soldiers have been dispatched to poland to advise the polish governments on how to secure its folder. well, that's quite lawful for a number of reasons, but one of them is this, that the british states it doesn't see fit to dispatch a british soldiers to nobody, to defend britons bold as against illegal migrants who trust in the english channel on a daily basis. indeed, only a few days ago,

1000 illegal migrants entered dover on one day alone. yeah. the so tension between the european union and embarrass, lexi really shows the, the, the wanting immigration policy of the european union. because as marcus is pointed out, here is a process is basically just drop the bone because, you know, they're not particularly happy with the poles in the 1st place right now for a lot of other internal union issues here. so really kind of puts them in a bind and then we, we have the european union trying to communicate to russia to communicate, bear with russia, saying it's not our problem. it's your problem. and look, i shall say, well, let's talk, but they don't want to, i mean it, it shows the weakness of the european union foreign policies, immigration policy, even leadership here because this can be resolved because we do have an example. that name is called airline. okay. i mean, they're willing to talk to turkey, not

a member of the european union about legal immigration, but they're not willing to talk because what are they too proud? go ahead. right, well i think there are, there are 2 lessons to, to learn for the europe from the crisis and anything so far they have not been learning these 2 lessons. one is if the parents are as concern as they should be about the security and stability of the adjuster regions, north africa and the middle east. they perhaps should have stopped sourcing major decision making to the united states that them sprayed to internal american domestic politics. right? and they should take matters into their own hands, which they're not doing as, as you just mentioned. and markers just show. so they're asking for more kind of american and british support to take these, you know, to solve this issue for them. and that's a problem in the long run. and the 2nd lesson, i think that they're not learning that they should be learning is that turning

states into failed entities has long term consequences. so when, when they were old, these interventions in syria, i've gotten on even iraq, i guess a huge number of these migrants from the polish bill, russian border, or iraqi purse. and you know, what i think is missing in this discussion is how did they end up on the polish bell, russian border, and why would they go there and the 1st place, right? they're not, you're in there. i think there is little the standing discussion on what's going on in the iraqi curtis. then why would people go to, to, to europe now, and that these are serious questions that i think have not been at ransom brother, the europe keep looking for the, for factor in every single challenge that they face. and i don't think it's a long term solution markets with this issue with energy, their low to, to appreciate energy security, migration, security. but,

you know, at the same time, they say they have to demonize russia, but maybe the russian been figured out. i mean, it's a very, we're trying to bomb adults, broached on all of the. and if you rightfully pointed out the you case that's true to poland. i mean, this all started out because the military decision in the middle east. and now the best solution, this is ben troops. what about just city now? say, how can we, we can negotiate the welfare of these people and the big around how they got there, why they got their presumably, presumably gentlemen, these quote unquote rescue, geez bought wayne tickets. so, i mean, these are well off refugees. i mean is there's always, they're always looking for a land game, but we don't even know who these people are. go ahead and, well, of course, if america, britain and the european union were to sincerely analyze the reasons for the migration crisis, then it was totally annihilates their reasons for having intervened in both

libya and syria. so obviously they are not going to go down that pathway. however, there is a very, very obvious reason play as to why our focus is on russia. it is because the russia of today is not the russia of the 19 ninety's. if flatten me, it was a if he was compliant to weston wishes to west and demands. if he allowed russia to be dependent on the international monetary fund, then you would say a very different approach on the west. but of course, the reality is that under vladimir putin, not only has russia regained it, independence, which it lost. so a very great extent during the 1990s,

because it was on an i and met life supports machine. not only that, for them, it has returned russia as a great power, and even for he has returned russia as a superpower. and of course, the americans look to russia as the only country which can truly challenge it. hm. it's hedge. a monic role in the well, they do not look at china in the same way because they know that the chinese economy is dependent on the american economy. so china is not able to challenge russia in the same way. and as i said to moments ago, the situation, the whole issue of russian order is not about migrants, per se, is about russia. it is about finding another pretext to, to ferment further civil unrest by the marcia to demonize president lucas,

who in my estimation, has done a very good job in keeping bell russia. i've every stable country since the end of the soviet union. and also it provides the west to continue be philip. it's a military presence in nato. and in the black sea region, that is what the, the crux of the matter is concerning. the tension on the polish fellow russian border. it is about late. so increasing its presence along the russian order. i think it was kind of like a logical thing to me. brussels is can't competent. the fact that there was gonna say no, they can say no. and then get away with it here. and because of that, they have taken options off of the table. like i said, there's the air to one option you might or might not find the practice. but it did resolve europe problem. ok. and, but they're not willing to accord the same kind of policy towards the very reasons

the market says, explain to us, go ahead, right. i agree, and i will also add to that perhaps that i think kind of a me term challenge here is that, well, the rules may be kind of turn into what d p a r k is for china. you know, when you put too much pressure on kim and refusal kind of options for the ocean that may, that may play you out. you know, north korea as a strategic leverage for china against regional rival, but also and beat opinion. the next, which i think if the current policies towards spell the risk continue, then russia would have to support to share and go on a number of things that may not would be in russia's own interest. but because you don't really have a better option than you have like it even longer problem on your hands. but also, as i mentioned before, if you're being kind of are playing a trick role here,

you know, on the one hand to complain about their security. on the other hand, they refuse to make their own transformation from a payer to a real player, a 1000000 ah ah, for an alley ourselves to be more efficient for quicker with our transactions. but with that comes a trade off. every device is a potential entry point for security into any machine. it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers to partner with them. there's one called option offering. it's

not a matter of, if it happens, it's a matter of went to one of the mic. no, you know, borders and the keys and you as a merge, we don't have a charity. we don't on the back seat, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are judgment, common crisis with we can do better, we should be doing better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is great. the response has been met. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in it together with

the welcome at the cross type were all things are considered. peter la bell. this is the home and just to remind you were discussing some real news. ah, ah, taste gears settling maxime, let's talk about ukraine. and i have this really bad feeling of deja vu all over again because we had in the spring tensions we say, very provocative rhetoric and even behavior. and then we seem to have a repeat b u. s. administration, the by the ministration really is increased its interest and it's the same time mentioned within ukraine. here, what is the message they're sending because it's very confusing or maybe that's the

whole point is to be opec ok to, to create a sense of unease. but of course, that in itself creates more attention, and obviously the russians are watching very carefully about, as i will stress over and over again in this from, this is an interest ukraine problem. definitely trying to pull russia into it, your thoughts, my friend, go ahead. well, i think throughout its history, russia as a continental, our had to focus on 3 major fronts, you know, with the west east on goals. and now perhaps we'll keep an eye on china, but also in the south where the entire kind of central asia middle east direction. so the idea that i think has been very strong in the west, in the us in particular that rushes and chinese alignment may pose a greater challenge and rushing that act as a force multiplier to china is i think is very strong. so one reason to invoke

these ukraine cards, so to say, as many policymakers moscow believe is that, you know, that kind of keeps moscow distracted from the eastern front, with china in, from the southern front with syria and all the middle east policy. and you've been very, very busy in the west with ukraine. the 2nd thing, i think you mentioned the desert, who i even have but even more dangerous. i mean, this is not a board game. we're sure, very, very 14000 people have been killed by the government in the don. this is not a board game. this is very sorry to interrupt people. is it isn't that is serious. and then you know, the management, the talks about there's a who and i haven't even and other issue with august 2008. and i think that makes me very worried in the wake of the war in georgia. music right? didn't warn georgia and so south of santia, you know,

a few couple of months before the 5, the war handle is a rice came to the lisi and you know, some say in private, she argued and a warrant factors will they get scores, who provoke and russia and stuff, but in public, then they went and then, you know, provided security guarantees and stuff. so i think, you know, when talk to the american policy managers to visit key f. and then, you know, you speak to people say, well, they actually, you know, encourage the landscape to focus on fighting corruption and stuff. but that's not what they say in public though. and they didn't talk about natal guarantees. insecurity reassurance is all they kind of stuff. so that seems a very dangerous message to authorities in and then go and escalate in the use of your brain. so that makes him very worried about prospects for what we may see in this crisis market. i'm really glad that mixing brought up august 2008 because i

see the scenario playing out again. you have this very public propaganda barrage, encouraging the ukrainian but there's a person named metro jato is who is, is known. i figure even before the, my don, the europe in union, a ultra nationalist, even some people would describe him as a neo nazi he's, he's playing another key role in military thinking in kevin, his only goal is war is what is the goal is conflict. and when you have the secretary events in the united states, you know, going, giving them these out of boys and you know, where we got your back and, you know, in your inter, go to our security. all the other, you know, boiler plate nonsense that nato is putting out on a daily basis. this creates a very, very dangerous situation because obviously it's a wag the dog situation that we could good way out here and there will be real

consequences. go ahead, mark. i have long described ukraine as rushes, soft underbelly because we've out a way if russia has a ukraine on its border, which is hostile and which is in the west of it. then not only is that russia going to be weakened in europe, but it will be weakened in the world as a whole. and even worse than that, russian national security will be in peril. and of course, for nearly 8 years now, ukraine has been in the west all bit politically, economically, militarily. also culturally, the west has integrated ukraine into it or bit. that is not to say, however, that russia doesn't have a leverage in ukraine because it most certainly does. so for example,

millions of ukrainians, not just in the east of ukraine, not just in the south if you drink, but also in the center of ukraine, regard themselves as part of the russian world. none the less ukraine is in the west orbit. and america and britain, which of course of the heart and soul of nato, are intent on bring in the ukraine into its ranks. because a ukraine in the ranks of nights. so the main that russia is and so on its western border, it would mean that russian supremacy in the black sea region would be seriously compromised. because even as we talk now, the americans are refurbishing the pools at odessa and also off in ukraine to accommodate american and british wash it. so what we see at the moment in the black

sea region and in ukraine is a measure that the americans and the british are going to take. they now have ukraine in their orbits. they are going to do, if the thing they possibly can, with the exception of defending ukraine, militarily, they will do everything they can to ensure that ukraine remains in their presence. so one of the options to russia, well gosh, is options. she does have options in ukraine, and quite frankly, ukraine should never have been allowed to enter the west or beach in the 1st place . the dangers emanates at the end of 2013 in ukraine, and for russia were very obvious, but that is under the bridge, so to speak. the only way that you crane can be saved is for russia taken clinical action. otherwise, the day will come. when you crane and says night,

so people could people very quickly, people, people could say that ukraine can only join at night. so if the situation in the crime and the dumbass is resolved, but quite frankly, it could agree to reach all in its own way by it. forget about the crime. me. if it gets about the for the blue and on it, which has lost. and then in that scenario, ukraine will be free to join late. so the way it all, by the way, folks, you know, it doesn't sound right when it comes out. that doesn't roll off the b u. k. and the united states are black. the pounds because they're not ordered by the but they're, they're met. same. i mean, the cynic in me tells me, is then kind of echoing, when you said, you mean given, when marcus had to say, but the united states to create a diplomatic crisis for russia over ukraine suits them just fine. ok. i mean,

encourage the government, you have a military assault on what's called the don dance. russia will react, irrespective of the outcome, the usb, that is a victory. russia would be isolated in the west military action because ukraine would not win. i mean, it's a, it's a very cynical game because every bad outcome in washington is perceived is a good outcome. go ahead max. well, i think if i were to look at the situation from, from the western point, it makes sense to when you have to focus on, you know, rivalry with china. but russia is, is, is feel a huge issue. you need to build kind of a new containment in a way to contain russia in the black sea. and in the, in the, in this, in its border with ukraine is one option, obviously. and a big one. there is also, i think, an illusion of that you can leave the court on board controlled escalation game with, with russia, where you supply your brain with, with certain weapons. and you maintain a certain degree of, you know,

violence and escalation and intensity of the border with russia, and then hope you can still deter moscow against any hardcore option of retaliation . which i think what the united states has now been trying to do by also sending, you know, c, h, e, for birds to moscow. and kind of making all this warning signals against you jack. but i think the red lines on the green have been told and repeated again and again, and what we're seeing now that they've been violating. and i think the entire situation is now being clean out again, around setting new rules and setting new stage for you know, the new brain obviously was not happy with the mens got worse. we right, is, is the damping here to see if the russia will buckle it will lay except a strategic to peter and i think all of this would agree that that's not in the car, but then reception then the west houses that if a certain combination,

the russians will give up, that's not going to happen and that's why i went on this program because i see this is a collision course. as i said, dasia, who all over again, i ranked remind everyone during the spring intentions were very, very, to be are to the point where obviously bought a potential conflict was at hand here then would be the americans and they were going to send in the ships into the black sea, then they decided not to and then for some reason the u. k. type will go there. i mean, obviously they didn't work. why do they think it's going to work now? go ahead. well, i hope it's not going to work. the moscow may also kind of again, you know, consider some, some new tactics. perhaps also the ones that may include and use a force to reset the stage and to coerce ukraine to sign some new terms of agreement. and obviously, i think 6 to renegotiate the main script for study beliefs. we're not any,

it's in its interest, but i can't agree more with you. it's a dangerous it's a dangerous trend towards a new collision course. i can finish up for us. marcus, one of the chances in my opinion of a war between russia and america over ukraine, or negligible, but the chances of an accidental or i'm very much alive and well. that's what we worry about here. this miscalculation need play a game of chicken. one side may decide to go through with that and then when one side decides to go through with that you both end up in it. okay. what we're hoping to avoid here. okay gentlemen, that's all the time we have the i want to thank my guest in moscow in london. them . i think our viewers for watching us here are you seeing x, i'm remember? ah, ah,

there's a patch of water around the try, a seal island that's in contention between canada and the united states, northern gulf, a maintenance suddenly become optimal for lobster. our populations years exploded. one of the most valuable fisheries that ever existed. suddenly you had me and canadian fishermen in these waters at the same time jousting for position and tensions or high violence is bound to happen. this is the last land border dispute between canada and the united states. it could be magnified to the point where there could be costs that would be significant to hope countries. border dispute don't go away. they discussed or something's going to happen. new york is really what america is about.

when our mayor took our place, he was elected because of his campaign on our city, being a tale of 2 cities, the house and i have not those who have not are usually the ones who were end up being buried on hard i. the city has always wanted to forget about hold island. city is wanted to forget about the people who are buried there. just wanted to forget about the fact that there is a potters field that there is a place where difficult stories are hidden. the fact that we're using inmates to maintain this active burial site, where 1000000 souls are buried, where so much of new york city history is buried, is document of the quality that exists in the city for centuries. ah, a

top headlines here. what are tape, poland? demands action from it, from nato allies, to resolve the migrant surge on beller road border. and while european powers point the finger at russia, president putin says it's a problem of europe's own making. sure. in europe, they themselves create the conditions for hundreds of thousands of people to go there. and now they're looking for culprits to absorb themselves, have responsibility, take care of your internal problems, don't shift your issues on to others. ah, antique locked down rallies of sweeping europe as austria becomes the 1st nation to impose or shocked down up only for the unvaccinated emitter cope. it's so efficient has certainly split the public it's been dig any.