ah, i'm african returns here. we're going underground, amid tore sleeves, allegations predicted stagflation and the new cold war. you'd be forgiven for thinking politics had gone back to the 20th century. well, just in time to remind us how little has changed the british film institute new season featuring the complete works of oscar nominated palm door and back to winning director mike lee along with ken loach. he's one of the great chroniclers of the working class experience in britain, his films, which explore issues from gentrification to fetch, right? alienation to the people who massacre resonate as much now as they did when they were made. his retrospective runs until the 30th of november, and he joins me now from land. mike, welcome to going underground to the british film institute, celebrating your entire career. they say your films bring stories of ordinary working class people to screen with honesty and empathy. fair enough description

may be missing out for playfulness. what do you think? well, i think it does, but it also is absolutely true that a lot of my films and characters are working class, but they're not all. i mean, i think for me it's all about humanity. and in fact, you'll find people of all shapes and sizes including a middle class, lower middle class and indeed upper middle class people. and even the occasional pushback and my move is because i not really only concerned in a narrow way to tell stories about so called working class. i want to explore those issues of classa. chiefly, actually, in a moment, i don't know whether you've seen squid game really popular on netflix, the director, one gong york saying he should have negotiated a royalty deal with netflix rather than a deal which doesn't have royalties given they made 3 goods of

a 1000000000. i think people around the world knowing the amount of awards you of one for your work, little and your actors going to be shocked that you ever have struggle to finance your films as i got easier now or is it more? no, actually it's got. i actually got out of the moment, i'm having a real battle trying to find any backing at all. so those people around the world who might have been shocked to hear what happened in the past will be double shocked today was probably in the present. is it, is it not so much a lack of her so much about film funders, thinking they want their return or investment, or a lack of comprehension of your work? well, i don't think it's a lack of comprehension of the work. actually what it to, to some considerable extent is, is that as you may know, i don't work conventionally. i don't to present a script because there isn't mom. and i don't say what the film is going to be

about because we embark on a journey on the journey of making the film to discover what the film is. and with the exception of my 3 historical topsy turvy, mr. turner and peter lew where i was able to say it's about this, but that's all i did is simply make that one line state all of my films have been made on the basis of backers saying, well, we don't know what it's about, what we trust you and go off and make a trill. what i do with my, all my collaborators, both sides of the camera, is to do what painters are novelists and poets, and sculptors and musicians do, which is to create work and allow it to emerge from the investigation. that is the execution of the work. and so it's not so much to answer your question. it's not so much like compression about what my films are, because whatever else they are, they're not is

a terrific or obscure. it's more that people are cautious about putting money into things. they don't know what they're going to get and also not having some control over it, not interfering with it. not to him having their fingers all over it. peter big live. now that the most successful netflix film of all time or series of all time is centered on the issue of capitalism and class means it's a good time. for filmmakers who look at contradictions and the class a class you're talking to the wrong person. you should be talking to netflix, not the bay, turn me down. as a matter of fact, i do. famously, you tell the story of how some fund is, ask you to abandon your whole model of a theatrical company style of recruitment within the, into your films. and try and get celebrities, or you might want to remind us about that. don't leave the absurdity of it. what do you think? because somebody might say, orson wells couldn't get,

he spent his entire life abandoning projects that he wanted to get on. we had all of a stone on here talking about how he had to abandon the my lai massacre film, which arguably would have been so important to a project. so, i mean, isn't this the tale of woe, by all great directors? well, it's certainly the tale of woe for many of us. i mean, i know you've had my friend and com, right. and colleague ken loach on your program. how can a smart he makes very low budget film and her does exactly what he wants. and i tend to because it takes me time in a way the production values of more complex than perhaps his kind of films which are wonderful. and it becomes more difficult, but you know, you're right. it is. the problem with move is,

is there not paintings and then or novels. they are complicated things that cost money involve a lot of stuff. you know. i mean, the going to do you use room at the top, i know is mentioned in the michael your mike reboot, but then you say your use your knowledge or what it is to be young and withdrawn from society, mentioning salinger's books and, and james, dean films, very important, the american idea alienated youth the somewhere in the background of all your films. no, certainly. i mean, you know, i was, i suppose, pretty much the age of it hero. when catch her in there, i was published more or less, maybe slightly a year or 2 younger. but look, here's the thing we who were born in the war and i was born in 1943 were teenagers and the 1950s. that terribly repressive. squeaky clean

world, which only later did we understand was the way it was because our folks have been to hell and back in world war 2. and then of course, we all literally let our hair down in 1960 not world was a world where we were aware of the american culture, of course, apart from anything else, i watched movies. absolutely as much as anyone would like me. as much as you could afford throughout my childhood and teenage years. but i never saw in the whole of that time and i saw the film all the time. i never saw a film that wasn't an english. everything i saw was either a hollywood movie or a british. and so for made that muscle explosion, apart from other cultural things in terms of movies was when i, when i came to london in 1960 compared study acting. and, and of course i discovered well cinema and it was a, it was a massive,

massive explosion course. yeah, i mean there, but am i again and felina, he comes up with your name in many descriptions of things. i mean, he, the, i was high hopes the the other day, and they look like a film the going to be made yesterday. we've had wars, obviously since world war 2, the orig, all around the world inequality is higher than when you made some of your films, are back in the late eighties. have, i mean, also we now have, am the word socialism used by us politicians. and before scarce darma game in, we had a socialist leader, a labor body. do you find that her? your work is now. this is the time for all the stuff you her doing before. it's even more. and i think you have to unpack coin to said, well, a lot of the other, those foreign films, famously i presume you're referring to the new valve. org or phil. now you want to

be able to see and you know, many associated with the communist party. obviously with john gutter you, you followed and are associated with socialist fil films that attack thatcher. thatcher is in particular. or do you find that now? is it even better time films like that to attack a privatization and the effects on the poor? if i'm honest, i am. question was no answer. i think you say, here's the thing. i. if i understand the spirit of the question, you're asking me somewhere in the premise. but what i do is make socialist films, or i make films that are in some way propagandist. now, i don't, i don't, i, i've never made a film without a simple direct clear message. my films are implicitly political on the

whole. i would say you could describe my films, they political with a small pay my last film. peter live up pretty much in 18. 19 is the only film that is plainly about politics are such but my films are political in the sense that they are all concern with how we live, how we treat each other, how we survive the economics that underpin how we live, etc, etc, etc. but they are nasa kills with simple messages, and i defy anybody to the class, a simple single singular message, any of my films. and so, in the complex and i leave you at the end of ritual, or it's not all where much to think about to do face to reflect on. because my primary job is not to make propaganda.

it's to put all of the screen people in a real creed, dimensional way, with all the complexities and contradictions, with all of us, embodying as any good film would, would be arguably, people would say that i think ice, but, you know, i mean, it's interesting if you have a very interesting tendency which i, i respect to as we talk about my to keep or what have a need to refer back to all what all the other films. i mean, what you've just said is true for some guys. but that also was great films, which are very simple and direct in terms of what they're about to what the message is. i have not to make those kinds of yeah, i mean, i don't know with using our zoos, talk your story about age and i know that's a, that's a frequent element of your film work. the importance of age. and of course,

the big debate here with settled social care now probably on the agenda. no one is going to say that is a long way or the other about age. as part of the retrospective of my films and london, i was also asked to choose half a dozen other films, not by me, but i in some way or other regardance and inspirational influence. and one of them is in the token story, i'm a guy was a great player, inspired by also still on the phone as well. domestic but particularly also. ready yeah, i mean, the great thing about those films, not least story, is that the deals implicitly when they, if you like, politics of how we left. but it's no way. is it a pamphlet or piece of propaganda? likely i'll stop you them more from the oscar nominated palm to

a winning mike lee after this ah for yourself to be more efficient quicker with transactions. but with that comes a trade off. every device is a potential entry point for security at any machine. it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers with one section in the office. it's not a matter of if it happens, it's a matter of went to a

welcome back. i'm still here with the oscar nominated palm to a winning director mike lee. i wanted to ask you about the to lu than because around the world people are not going to necessarily know about that mask a. why is it that i don't think i was even talked about to be to massacre? i think you've said in the past, you weren't tell me about the air was it brought the, the air brushing off to be 2 months ago out of history that inspired you to make that feel? well, actually, it's a complex matter. this isn't there, but i mean, it was very, very well, widely known about in some quarters. but whichever way you look at it, it is and was an important event because it was about the franchise. i mean, 2 percent of the population had to vote and they were all along the male land at the time. and the real point is not what patient must current sell

merely the p to lu masika in 1819 itself. but what it actually means for us in terms of democracy now, i mean you yourself, been saying few minutes ago talking about the relevance of things. now, when we started to prepare in 2014, after we've made a plane. in no time, our preparation proceeded. we found ourselves saying this is becoming increasingly relevant, increasingly, for pressure. and indeed, i mean, you know, we know the things that have happened in the world since 2014, 2015 and continued today. so it's about democracy about it. well having that voice, i think people are going to be slightly sad to them. i mean, i did it with

a book to lou cheese nova chen to had any cuts because he had to really find money and they actually remove all episodes. i understand you wanted to maybe have an element of the engine easy and volcano explosion that change your time to blanket mode. you have to raise whole sections for be 2. yes i didn't. i don't think that's the same thing. what's not in peach. lou isn't because we didn't cover money because lou, anyone seen the film was interested. it contains one slight of hand cheat, which is with it starts with a bottle of waterloo in $1815.00. and it ends with the picture of muscular and 1819 . now, within the space of the channel, the audience does not says i thinking 4 years ago and passed. and indeed, if we actually did log all the relevant things that happened in the world, including the great volcanic eruption and indonesia, which,

which made meant that there was no summer anywhere in europe. and it affected everything, not least what people had to eat, including all events that happened between those 2 dates. the film would have lasted for about 9 weeks. it really doesn't come under the heading of the things we didn't cover the cost, we couldn't afford them. on the other hand, when we were about to make we were talking about making. so j m w, turn of the great pain tough. i said, we have to have a sequence in dentist. we have to go to turn a painted dentist. it's an important part of his work and his journey. we have to see, vanish. we have to experience that. well, you've been to venice, everybody listening who's been to venice knows you only got to walk across san marco punch class coughing, and it cost you off your mortgage, basically, most expensive place in the world. my producers said look, i do, we make the film. and we don't get into that and we don't make the film and we made

the film or we didn't go to venice. and of course, once you get down to it, you know miss venice moved because we tell a story and would see available elements on it's not really lost, but it's illustration of what you told me is where the wood quarantine was 1st coined. and actually it was empty, empty because of the pandemic. i know as an ironman, i mean, i suppose it coming off there. i'm sure some of your fans would love to see films that you direct in foreign locations. when you mentioned ken loach earlier, he did get to do nicaragua and the spanish civil war film. i mean, will you have future plans everything because the style and the same company improvisation stuff in a different, more epic landscape of some kind. there are 2 things about this. one is that the important thing is that although my shows are very,

very specific and that you know, cultural, melia, etc, etc. because i think all has to be specific in one way or not. the actual, my films are about is not parochial, etc, and they universe all subjects. so i'm not really too bothered about making films around the world sake of the landscapes. i'm more concerned with being able to explore. busy and investigate, i'm present some people in relationships and how we live in the as i've already said, i wasn't saying they were killed. but say, i mean you have a passionate belief in the un resolutions on palestine. you never wanted to do anything about the middle east, for instance. well, no, i have, i actually dealt with in a stage play called 2000 years at the national theater. up to now haven't dealt

with it in a film, but who knows what i might do? yeah, filming probably always a, always a difficult or easy. some people say it very difficult to get palestine films accepted by the oscars and funding and so on. you. well, that's not really relevant to what we're talking about. well, i mean, the most famous, certainly here in britain there were obviously is abigail's policy. i haven't followed this, but i remember the criticisms made about this or that somehow it was patronized, very interesting how you took the criticism head on about whether your patronizing about working classes or explain that in a sense it's a double double trick and anyone who doesn't see that doesn't really understand what abigail's policy is about. well, i mean, the famous i thought it was the late playwright dennis potter, and he simply said it was one long snare. well, i mean, the,

my main reaction to that in a nutshell is it's not about to play stage play, which we did on television, not actually. so it's not a play about them. it's a play of us, not really sums up what i think about when he's in that we're showing people how they are. there was a film class that is a play about aspiration and superficial values and all of that. but that's not the snare that i mean, if you want to say it's a lemon. taishan of some kind of the same time is generally deemed by most people to be extremely funny. you know, when i'm watching the retrospective, people are going to think a mobile phone or technology will change the plot points here in there because people know, having mobile phones. obviously that's a very, very good and interesting point. and i'm what i've been very aware of the last film

i made, the contemporary film i made was called another. yeah, we made it 12 years ago. but now i'm mobile is different than that, but i didn't really don't play any significant since that i've only made 2 phones, one setting the i never had a 190. it had been, well, i thought you're absolutely right. i mean, i know i can't walk down the street without somebody bumping into mail. then i started in a korean lunch time. things yesterday with my mom who both amused. there was a woman sitting that's an adjacent table. simultaneously with her teenage son. there were small tenuously eating a boat large both of noodle soup at the same time as plain chess from each other on

my mobile. which i think really robbed the game of chess of its focus. and it certainly takes the focus of the bowl of noodles. they're going to be exciting elements of new film. so although you can't tell us about the next project i was actually, i wasn't meaning to go down that technological adeidra. i was going to say that say in their home, sweet home one of your film. so whether a postman do you think many of your characters in these fields recognize the levels of privatization that have happened since those dramas of occurred in terms of, i mean, do their scenes with trains and so on. everything, whether it be royal male, british rail, gas, water buses is now privatized. well, some wood, some wood, some wood wonder where the hell a were, and others would, would get it. i mean, that's all i can say. i mean, you don't think you don't think. i mean,

i think you been self critical about the caricature was of upper class people are yuppies or people say, and i and i hope you don't think that's just brecht in alienation. you're supposed to shock the audience when you talk about a certain classes versus other classes. oh yes, i mean that's exactly what it was. no question about that. and i mean, if you're talking about high hopes, i mean there are, in a way, there are, there are 3 couples. and each of them is rendered in a, it a, to put it all crudely than it deserves. in a sense, each rented a different style. the central characters are the sort of narrative. she like absolutely real. they what people you're referring to who move in next door of a caricature, but they're still real on the stuff. they are not even shop at. just got it. they're all real. but there are,

but i'm not educators that you're absolutely. now you mentioned it would certainly relate to resonate with practice principles of alienation. but it's any way of looking at people who would be greatly inspired and influenced by the great caricature cartoonists. and you look at those, you definitely see the real world, but there's no way that i'd like to use the word exaggeration distill. yes. so that's what i'm concerned with do. and, and i'm very harsh edge against her power. clearly, when i know you know you, you very keenly the want to say, you know, it's a, you may be a political filmmaking on the searches will make. but even, i mean, if you, if you look at your renoir, if you look at casa gav ross in all the great, hopefully, who are these high communist actors? i know you are famous around the world in the western world for ver,

championing and changing the lives of so many actors around the world. no one would have seen algebra. none of them ever did by karl marx's, a burial ground where he's buried in highgate, in north london. the reality is that these guy, i mean this was couple and the guy took several character in the phil is seen himself in socialists and it seemed very natural to them to go not very far from why we have to live in kings, cross to visit karl marx is a great, i guess i'm a true, that's just the natural thing for them to do. and of course, it has a symbolism as a meaning. and of course, one of the things about that is that when i made the fall, i had not long before, but i spent a month by myself chuckling through china in the people's republic of china, which is quite an experience which we could talk about on another occasion so,

and when i went to i get cemetery by way of thinking about the scene in the film on the searching on 2 occasions, there were gangs of tourists from the people's republic of china and hitting them getting the gray. so i thought let's have that in the film, so we actually got, oh, gang of real ones. and then they came to punch in the scene and they knew exactly what to do cuz they know what he visited. i guess i'm a teacher. i how much co marks his grade and you know, sometimes the meaning of things simply. busy happens in due course rather than that may something that we consciously propagating and certainly internationalize it. finally, just i have to ask you, given, i mean you can name maybe some of the actors who owe their careers to you all

around the world. that asshole names for summer i think some of think have chat shows in the u. s. i don't know. just tell me, tell me why they call it all, help them in this funding exercise so that you will be making a i don't know, films about space travel. oh, interesting thing is, until you mentioned that never occurred to like what you're saying is go and go to my rick, james cordon. gary oldman will help you out with. yes, i don't think not to the appropriate line of thought. really. i mean, nice guys. why would i, you know, i think they should spend their resources on rec, children who likely thank you. thank you. you take care bye and my glee, a complete film season runs until the 30th of november to be f i in london, where you can also watch a newly folk, a remastered version of his film. naked, that's half of the show will be back on wednesday until then keep in touch with us, my role as social media. and let us know if you think we'll do the cinema really

reflect the lives of working people. ah, there's a patch of water around the try, a seal island that's in contention between canada and the united states, where their government has suddenly become optimal for lobster and our populations here is exploded. one of the most valuable fisheries that ever existed. suddenly you had made an canadian fisherman in these waters at the same time jousting for position and tension or high violence is bound to happen. this is the last land border dispute between canada and the united states. it could be magnified to the part where there could be costs that would be significant to hold countries. border dispute don't go away, they just fester. something's going to happen with

a huge crowd of migrants move from their camp in beller, roost to the border pole in braces for a possible breach, with military reinforcements, backed by water cannon was coming in our stories today. police in the u. k. declare a taxi explosion outside a hospital in liverpool on sunday. a terrorist incident for men are arrested in connection with a blast which left one person dead and another injured also ahead. o . dante, you locked on raleigh sweep. you're up with austria becoming the 1st nation to impose a shut down only for the on the facts and they take that to, to your decision a split public opinion. it's been.