ah ah ah i'm african returns here we're going underground, amid tore sleeves, allegations predicted stagflation and the new cold war you'd be forgiven for thinking politics had gone back to the 20th century. well, just in time to remind us how little has changed the british film institute new season featuring the complete works of oscar nominated palm door and back to winning director mike lee along with ken loach. he is one of the great chroniclers

of the working class experience in britain, his films, which explore issues from gentrification to fetch, right. alienation to the people who massacre resonate as much. now as they did when they were made. his retrospective runs until the 30th of november, and he joins me now from land. mike, welcome to going underground to the british film institute, celebrating your entire career. they say your films bring stories of ordinary working class people to screen with honesty and empathy. fair enough description may be missing out for playfulness. what do you think? well, i think it does, but it also is absolutely true that a lot of my films and characters are working class, but they're not all. i mean, i think for me it's all about humanity. and in fact, you'll find people of all shapes and sizes including a middle class, lower middle class and indeed upper middle class people. and even the occasional pushback in my move is because i not really only concerned in

a narrow way to tell stories about so called working class people. i want to explore those issues of class, chiefly as in a moment. i don't know if you've seen squid game really popular on netflix, the director one going here saying he should have negotiated a royalty deal with netflix rather than a deal which doesn't have royalties given they made 3 quarters of a 1000000000. i think people around the world knowing the amount of awards you have one for your work, little and your actors are going to be shocked that you ever have struggle to finance your films as i got easier now or is it more? no, actually it's got i actually got out of a moment. i'm having a real battle trying to find any packing at all. and so those people around the world who might have been shocked to hear what happened in the past will be double shocked. there was money in the present. is it? is it not so much a lack of her so much about film funders,

thinking they want their return or investment or a lack of comprehension of your work? well, i don't think it's a lack of comprehension of the work. actually, what it took to some considerable extent is, is that as you may know, i don't work conventionally. i don't to present a script because there isn't one. and i don't say what the film is going to be about because we embark on a journey on maturity of making the film to discover what the film is. and with the exception of my 3 historical topsy turvy, mr. turner and peter lew where i was able to say it's about this, but that's all i did is simply make that one line state. and all of my films have been made on the basis of backers saying, well, we don't know what it's about, what we trust you and go off and make a thrill. what i do with my, all my collaborators, both sides of a camera, is to do what painters and novelists and poets, and sculptors and musicians do,

which is to create work and allow it to emerge from the investigation. that is the execution of the work. and so it's not so much to answer your question. it's not so much lack of compression about what my films are, because whatever else they are, they're not isa, terrific, or obscure. it's more that people are cautious about putting money into things. they don't know what they're going to get and also not having some control over it, not interfering with it. not to him having their fingers all over it. peter big live, now that the most successful netflix film of all time or series of all time is centered on the issue of capitalism and class means it's a good time. for filmmakers who look at contradictions and the class a class you're talking to the wrong person, you should be talking to netflix,

not to me. they've turned me down as much. but i know famously are you tell the story of how some fund is, ask you to abandon your whole model of a theatrical company style for recruitment with into, into your films and try and get celebrities. or you might want to remind us about the, the, the absurdity of it and what you think. because some people might say, orson wells couldn't get, he spent his entire life abandoning projects that he wanted to get on. we had all of a stone on here talking about how he had to abandon the my lai massacre film, which arguably would have been so important to a project. so, i mean, isn't this the tale of woe, by all great directors? well, it's certainly the tale of woe for many of us. i mean, i know you pat my friend. com. right and colleague ken loach on your program. how can a smart he makes very low budget phil and her does exactly what he

wants. and i tend to because it takes me time in a way the production values of more complex than perhaps his kind of films which are wonderful. and it becomes more difficult. but you know, you're right. it is. the problem with move is, is there not paintings and then on novels they are complicated things that cost money involve a lot of stuff. you know. i mean the going to do you use room at the top. i know is mentioned in the michael your mike, maybe, but then you say your use your knowledge or what it is to be young. and with all from society, mentioning salinger's books and, and james, dean films, very important. the american idea alienated youth the somewhere in the background of all your films. no, certainly. i mean, you know, i was, i suppose,

pretty much the age of its hero. i'm when cats are in there, i was published more or less, maybe slightly on a year or 2 younger. but look, here's the thing we who were born in the war and i was born in 1943 were teenagers and the 1950s. that terribly repressive, squeaky clean world, which only later did we understand was. busy the way it was because our folks have been to hell and back in world war 2. and then of course, we all literally let our hair down in the 1960 s not world was a world where we were aware of the american culture, of course, apart from anything else, i watched movies as it, as much as anyone would like me. as much as you could afford throughout my childhood and teenage years. but i never saw in the whole of that time and i saw the film all the time. i never saw

a film that wasn't an english. everything i saw was either a hollywood movie or a british. and so for made that muscle explosion, apart from other cultural things in terms of movies was when i, when i came to london in 1960 bear study acting. and, and of course i discovered world cinema and it was a, it was a massive, massive explosion course. yeah, i mean there, but am i again and felina, he comes up with your name in many descriptions of things. i mean, he, the, i was high hopes the the other day, and they looked like a film that could have been made yesterday. we've had was obviously since world war 2, and the orig, all around the world inequality is higher than when you made some of your films, are back in the late eighties. i mean, also we now have, am the word socialism used by us politicians and the force against armor game in we

had a socialist leader, a labor body, or do you find that her, your work is now this is the time for all the stuff you her doing before is even more and i think you have to unpack coin to sack. well, a lot of the other, those foreign films, famously i presume you're referring to the new well vog her feel now you want to be able to see. and her, you know, many associated with the communist party, obviously with john and got her. are you you followed and are associated with socialist fil films that attack thatcher. thatcher is, or in particular? or do you find that now? is it even better time films? like glad to attacker privatization and the effects on the poor. i'm honest, i am. question was no i think the thing i, if i understand the spirit of the question,

you're asking somewhere in the premise. but what i do is like socialists films, or i make films that are in some way propagandist. now, i don't, i don't, i've never made a film without a simple direct clear message. my films are implicitly political on the whole. i would say you could describe my political with a small pay my last film, peter peter, the massacre in $1819.00 is the only film, but is plainly about politics such but my films, all political in the sense that they are all concerned with how we live how we treat each other, how we survive, the economics underpin how we live, separate factors. but they never go to any bugging

to because it's a simple, single singular message, any of my films. and so, in the complex and i leave you at the end of ritual, or it's not all where much to think about to do face to reflect on. because my primary job is not to make propaganda. it's to put all the screen people in a real creed, dimensional way, with all the complexities and contradictions, with all of us, embodying as any good film would, would be arguably, people would say that i think ice, but, you know, i mean, it's interesting if you have a very interesting tendency which i, i respect to, as we talk about my, what to keep or what have a need to refer back to all what all the other films. i mean,

what you just said is true for some god's movies, but that all films, great films, which are very simple and direct in terms of what they are about what the message is. i have not to make those kinds of yeah, i mean, i don't know with using our zoos, talk your story about age and i know that's a, that's a frequent element of your film work. the importance of age. and of course, the big debate here with that old social care. now family on the agenda. no one is going to say that is a long way or the other about age. as part of the retrospective of my films, the f i in london, i was also asked to choose, offered us another film, not by me, that i in some way or other regardance and inspirational interests. and one of them is in the tokyo store. i'm a growl was a great player, inspired by assumes films on it in the early film chrisala as well,

domestic but particularly awesome. ready yeah, i mean, the great thing about those films, not least tokyo storage, is that it deals implicitly when they, if you like, the politics of how we live. but it's no way. is it a pamphlet or a piece of propaganda? likely, i'll stop you there. more from the oscar nominated palm dor winning my glee after this for you and bill rose red odds over new legal immigration. guess what means catch the higher cards. also, washington is again increasing tensions within ukraine. is the mike administration looking to score a foreign policy victory to reflect some crises? join me every 1st bit on the alex, simon. and i'll be speaking to guess of the world politics sport business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. mm.

ah, welcome back. i'm still here with the oscar nominated palm to a winning director mike lee. i wanted to ask you about the delux then because around the world people are not going to necessarily know about that mask. why is it that i don't think i was even talk about the beach lou massacre. i think you've said in the past, you weren't tell me about the air. was it thought the, the air brushing off to be 2 months ago out of history that inspired you to make them feel? well actually, it's a complex matter. this isn't there, but i mean, it was very, very well widely known about in some quarters. but whichever way you look at it is and was an important event because it was about the franchise, i mean 2 percent of the population had to vote and they were all along the mail and this time. and the real point is not what patient must current sell merely the p to lu masika in 1819 itself. but what it actually means

for us in terms of democracy now. i mean you yourself been saying few minutes ago talking about the relevance of things. now, when we started to prepare the $2.20, after we've made mr. turner from atlanta, in no time, our preparation proceeded. we found ourselves saying this is becoming increasingly relevant. increasingly, i press it and indeed, i mean, you know, we know the things that have happened in the world since 2014, 2015 and continued to do so. it's about democracy about having that voice. i think people are going to be a slightly sad to though them. i mean, i don't know where the butcher lou cheese nova chen to have any cuts because he had

to really find money and they actually remove all episodes. i understand you wanted to maybe have an element of the engine easy volcano explosion that change your time to blanket mark. you have to raise whole sections for people or? yes, i didn't. i don't think that's the same thing. what's not in peach louis? because we didn't cover money because peter lou, if anyone seen the more interested it contains $1.00 slight of hand cheat which is with it starts with a bottle of waterloo in 1815. and it ends with the picture of muscular, in 1819. now within the space of the audience does not says i thinking 4 years ago and passed. and indeed, if we actually did log all the relevant things that happened in the world, including the, the great volcanic eruption and indonesia, which, which made meant that there was no some anywhere in europe. and it affected

everything, not least what people had to eat, including all events that happened between those 2 dates. the film would last for about 9 weeks. it really isn't, doesn't come under the heading of the things we didn't have any cost. we couldn't afford them. on the other hand, when we were about to make, we were chatting about making for j. m w turn great. paint shop. i said we have to have a sequence in venice. we have to go to venice, turn a painted venice. it's an important part of his work and his journey. we have to see venice after experience. well, you've been to venice, everybody listening, who's been to the knows the only dr. walk across san marco punch, buy a contract, and it cost you off your mortgage. basically most expensive place in the world, my producers said look, either way, make the film. and we don't go to that. we don't make the film. and we made the

film and we didn't go to venice. of course, once you get down to it, you know miss dennis moved because we tell the story and would see available elements and it's not really lost. but it's illustration of what you told me is where the word koren gene was 1st coined. and actually it was, and then because of the pandemic, obviously i know as an ira, i mean, i suppose it coming off there. i'm sure some of your fans would love to see films that you direct in foreign locations. when you mentioned ken loach earlier, he did get to do nicaragua and the spanish civil war film. i mean, will you have future plans ever to because the style and the same company and provides ation and stuff in a different, more epic landscape of some kind. there are 2 things about this. one is that the important thing is that although my shows are very,

very specific and that you know, cultural, melia, etc, etc. because i think all has to be specific in one way or not. the actual my films are about is not parochial, etc in the universe, all subjects. so i'm not really too bothered about making films around the world sake of the landscapes. i'm more concerned with being able to explore. busy and investigate, i'm present some people in relationships and how we live. and as i already said, i wasn't saying they were brookhill. i would say, i mean you have a passionate belief in the un resolutions on palestine. you never wanted to do anything about the middle east, for instance. well, no, i have, i actually dealt with in the state local 2000 years at the national theater. up to now haven't dealt with it in a film, but who knows what i might do?

yeah, filming probably always a, always a difficult or easy some people say it very difficult to get palestine films accepted by the oscars and funding and so on. you. well, that's not really relevant to what we're talking about. well, i mean, the most famous, certainly here in britain there were obviously is abigail's policy. i haven't followed this, but i remember the criticisms made about this that somehow it was patronizing. very interesting how you took the criticism head on about whether your patronizing about working classes or explain that in a sense it's a double double trick and anyone who doesn't see that doesn't really understand what abigail's policy is about. well, i mean, the famous i thought it was the late playwright dennis potter, and he said it was one long snare. well, i mean, the, my main reaction to that in

a nutshell is it's not about to play stage play, which we did on television, not actually. so it's not a play about them. it's a play of us, not really sums up what i think about when he's in that we're showing people how they are. there was a film class that is a play about aspiration and superficial values and all of that. but that's not the snare that i mean, if you want to say it's a lemon. taishan of some kind of the same time is generally deemed by most people to be extremely funding. you know, when i'm watching the retrospective, people are going to think a mobile phone or technology will change the plot points here in there because people know, having mobile phones. obviously that's a very, very good and interesting point. and i'm what i've been very aware of the last film

i made, the contemporary film i made was called another. yeah, we made it 12 years ago. but now i'm mobile is different than that, but i didn't really don't play any significant since that i've only made 2 phones, one setting the i never had a 190. it had been, well, i thought you're absolutely right. i mean, i know i can't walk down the street without somebody bumping into mail, then i started in a korean lunch time place yesterday with my mom who both amused. there was a woman sitting that's an adjacent table simultaneously with her teenage son. there were small tenuously eating a boat launch bows of noodle soup at the same time as plain chess from each other

on my mobile. which i think really robs a game of chess of its focus. and it certainly takes the focus of the bowl of noodles. they're going to be exciting elements of new film. so although you can't tell us about the next project i was actually, i wasn't meaning to go down that technological adeidra. i was going to say that say, in the home, sweet home, one of your films, or whether a postman, how do you think many of your characters in these fields recognize the levels of privatization that have happened since those dramas of occurred in terms of, i mean, there are scenes with trains and so on. everything, whether it be royal male, british rail gas water buses is now privatized. well, some wood, some wood, some wood, one to where the hell a were, and others would, would get it. i mean, that's all i can say that ran. i mean, you don't think you don't think. i mean, i think you been self critical about the caricature was all upper class people are

yuppies or people say, and i, and i hope you don't think that's just brecht in alienation. you're supposed to shock the audience when you talk about a certain classes versus other classes. oh yes, i mean that's exactly what it was. no question about that. i mean, if you're talking about high hooks, i mean there are, in a way there are, there are 3 couples. and each of them is rendered in a, it a to put it all crudely than it deserves, in a sense for each and in a different style. the central characters are the sort of heroes if she like, absolutely real. they what people you're referring to, move in next door of a caricature, but they're still real on the stuff that they are ever shop at. just got it. they're all real there,

but i'm not educator that you're absolutely. now you mentioned it would certainly relate to resonate with practice principles of alienation, but it's any way of looking at people who would be greatly inspired and influenced by the great caricature and cartoonists. and you look at those, you definitely see the real world, but there's no way that i don't like to use the word exaggeration distills the essence of, that's what i'm concerned with do and, and i'm very harsh edge against her power. clearly, when i know you know you, you very keenly the want to say, you know, it's, it's a, you may be a political filmmaking on the searches will make. but even, i mean, if you, if you look at your renoir, if you look at casa gav, receive all the great felicia who are these high communist actors. i know you are famous around the world in the western world for very championing and changing the

lives of so many actors around the world. no one would have seen algebra. none of them ever did by karl marx's, a burial ground where he's buried in highgate, in north london. the reality is that these guy, i mean this was couple and the guy took several character in the phil is seen himself and socialists and it seemed very natural to them to go not very far from why we have to live in kings, cross to visit karl marx is a great, i guess i'm a true, that's just the natural thing for them to do. and of course, it has a symbolism as a meaning. and of course, one of the things about that is that when i made the fall, i had not long before that. i spent a month by myself travelling through china, the people's republic of china, which is quite an experience which we could talk about on another occasion. so,

and when i went to i get cemetery by way of thinking about the scene in the film. certainly on 2 occasions, there were gangs of tourists from the people's republic of china and hitting them getting the gray. so i thought let's have that in the film, so we actually got, oh, gang of real ones. and then they came to punch in the scene and they knew exactly what to do cuz they know what he visited. i guess i'm a teacher. i how much co marks his grade and, you know, sometimes the meaning of things simply happens in due course rather than that, but maybe something that we consciously propagating. it certainly internationalize it. finally, just after hours you're given, i mean you can name maybe some of the actors who owe their careers to you all

around the world that asshole names for someone i think some of think have chat shows in the u. s. i don't know. tell me, tell me why they call it all, help them in this funding exercise so that you will be making, i don't know, films about space travel. oh, interesting thing is, until you mentioned that never occurred to like what you're saying is go and go to my rick, james cordon. gary oldman will help you out with. yes, i don't think that's an appropriate line of thought to really. i mean, nice guys. why would i, you know, i think they should spend their resources on rec, chosen likely. thank you. i give you take care bye. and my glee, a complete film season runs until the 30th of november, the b f i in london. where you can also watch a newly for k remastered version of his film. naked that's over this year. we'll be back on wednesday and keep in touch with us by all of social media. and let us know if you think model cinema really reflects the lives of working with.

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a unwelcome and desperate thousands of migrants endure. another freezing night before a heavily guarded polish border, apparently willing to take even greater risks to get into the police in the u. k. declare a taxi explosion outside the hospital in liverpool, on sunday, a terrorist incidents for men are arrested in connection with the bloss, which left one person dead. and another injured also ahead. ah, and he looked down, rally sweet europe with austria becoming the 1st nation to impose a shut down only for the unvaccinated, but to tear decision has split public opinion. it's been gig and a when hundreds of thousands of people are forced to be vaccinated. i don't even

know how many people who is their jobs.