be done well as the headlines for the south stay tuned for crystal because just a few moments time that he went back in half an hour with the latest join us again . mm mash, kaiser is fine as a survival guide. liquid assets are those that you can convert into cash quite easily. but keep in mind, no as the to me to inflation better watch guys report ah, ah ah hello and welcome to cross thought were all things are considered. i peter level,

when there are problems like the energy crisis, europe's illegal immigration on poland border or even when the wrong political party or politician winds. there is a culprit, always waiting in the wings. and that's russia. scapegoating. russia is the excuse used by failing to western leads. i cross sucking perceptions of rush. i'm joined by my guest roberts in court. he is a meritus professor of history at university college court and a member of the royal irish academy. his latest book, his stollins library, a dictator in his books in paris we have a moral. he's the founder of the center of political strategic analysis. rappel and here in moscow were joined by vladimir goldstein. he is the chair of the department of slavic studies at brown university. i gentleman crosswalk, rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciated. i let me go to jeff 1st in court. russo phobia is very real. we see it

all the time, particularly in po and politics and popular culture. if you watch netflix at all, and i have, i have you in ireland to have as of yay. in paris, we have vladimir moscow, but he is a resident of the united states. so, you know, i'd like a little bit about how it's expressed where you are. is there a specific kind of russo phobic expression that you find in ireland? go ahead, jeff. well, i think this, sir, no sir russell as a some other country. so for example, you carry, okay, so i live in on bobs, i follow the british media and sometimes it seems stuck on like been bombarded with kind of an anti russia e images. stereotypes and claims are only just recently. okay. the migration process being blunt blank on russia, there was a had money, a major bridge to speak to the other day about the possibility of rosman tax on, on the new crime. or the british chief of defense of salvage district,

just retired. it was talking about the danger ward, russia, and of course, 30, the demonization of putin is a con, is a constant in the major in the british, me, british media. but i just want to say something else. yeah. yeah. ok. it, there is a lot ross, a foger about non to brilliant in many other countries as well. but i'm not convinced how important it is, you know, but with a st. paul, i think it's about this discussion mclawrence program. i think it's actually a rather superficial or phenomenon. thumbs or you, you mentioned in your instruction that now russia is, is, is a scapegoat or domestic politics. i think that's, that's very true. but also there's also a genuine cadillac perception on the part of many people in your li, popular and these people are not raso folks. you can set perceptions about, you know, rushing danger russian friends ah,

all of that college. so i think we have to be careful about not overstating imports at a rasa phobia and understating. you know, the import, the significance of people's real fast. that isn't apprehensions. english to russia . that point is cost is not a lot. we can do about rus russell phobia and russell much, but there is something we can do about people's prejudices. and mr. sections about russia and vladimir. if i can turn to you. i mean, i think geoffrey brings up a really good point. i think it is very superficial and away. but at the same time it, it super physiology is the excuse. it does become that excuse if something goes wrong . there's always some a country or a group of people that you can blame where there's actually very little downside when you think about it. okay? i mean, you don't see the american lead scale going again, having the same kind of animals towards china, for example. okay. but they will with russia. what are your thoughts on that?

let me go ahead. well, it's always a lazy, but he's teaching kind of, excuse. are they the last excuse, always, calendar always or should be afford via that is, you know, just rather than acknowledging or facing certain issues, both in, in the one's own country in russia. what, what i find as a professor and a student over russia, he's, there are some literature or some culture. i find the country endlessly fascinating . you know, every time i come here, i just, my eyes just wide open. what a tremendous changes was done to the goes through how many things happened in the last 3040 years when you deal with it. unfortunately, it's like i already for a 1000000 narrative. you know, as a crazy good, a g and what your board is, everyone would, should know in the age of fi isn't a wonderful a weston, you know, well, world machine. and this is, you know, it's, it's the 1st of all, it's a, it's a betrayal of through. second of all is really bad for average people. you know,

i agree on some level that may beats aids like skin deep or maybe it's on a superficial. but a lot of people, you know, they rely on the way in use a present or whatever. and rather than go on to russia, rather seen things for themselves rather than mine. and my, you know, learning was starting the country. they just get the same 2 stories. how nasty, you know, russian police or how and they see sort of in are a, does everything but, and they, they lose the interests of coming. and i already think they already know everything . and that i find is very, very kind of disturbing and dangerous. and at the time when we, you know, you have internet where connected at the same time we're, we're pull the pot, that's was of, i find this for you to because france and russia traditionally, historically had very strong ties, very strong bonds. and they're not always over a bad bad moment. i mean, in for some people and we can discuss is we want, you know, some of the origins of currently a modern day was supposed be,

go back to the crimean war. other say it goes even further back to their pollyanna wars. but i mean, you know, a france and russia have a very long history together. but then we just a couple days ago, ah, vladimir putin was talking with the french president and the french president saying, you know, we, we guarantee our ukraine security. i mean it, that, that, that's very dangerous for not only for france, but the are all of europe itself, particularly when the crisis in ukraine is being generated by the west and not by russia. go ahead, la garza in paris, but i think it is the situation in france. it's gray, the semi admins. i mean that the, the french elite, the governmental elite and the, the french, her menstrual images are, are, are. so phobic, i can tell that her a represent of the french tv channel our on to russian, and maybe 90 percent of the newspaper and magazines are underwritten, but it's concerned elite. and concerning the, the french people there are quite early. so feel i can say in, for instance sir,

sometimes even though retina, which is quite popular because yay, gave the maids that is a strong main. and the, there is a lake of stronger political men in france. so is a, is quite popular and to be honest, french people are on the do interesting in what i've been in ukrainian. and then of course, there was a, you turn it in 2014 and even in 2012, when the foster alarm came to poorer because his, her is a, is a, is a socialist. n a and the left in france is a very her risk phobic. so are at this time we can't edit the governmental elite and the mainstream media's elite are, are, was a fabric, but not the people in chapter. one of the things that i'm, i'm an american, obviously i'm a long term resident in of rationale of over 20 years. and i've always sounded really quite interesting how the west constructs it's identity. and it's always

a very often it's at the juxtaposition of russia. and so when they say russians are aggressive, they're actually trying to divert attention away from their own aggression. okay. and, and when they were a and looking at the quality of life or the level of civilization, you know, you know, the, it's always projecting all of their negative traits on to someone else and rushes, a very good foil for that. what do you think about that, jeff? go ahead. so just to put the rightful funds, xavier might use the. okay. rus russell. phobia ross of phobias it is. it's an on of the late western politics is not, it's not popular to not a doctor does any kind of widespread, a, rasa photo as chipmunk, no general problem population. so certainly i'm certainly not to call stats. it's carla. it's weakness. yes. she may appear to be overpowering any your face all the time, but it's not. she is the founder front. i. she's of it are actually quite

a fragile. so this was a part of trump. my phone is broken. let's not over into our, the russell such as times i try to rush to phobia the porch. russia talk about jeffrey jeffrey george, everybody. i mean you, i, we were all in agreement. it's ubiquitous. i mean, it's everywhere. ok, i mean, so, i mean, even, even if it's not it's, you know, more it no more than skin deep. i mean, it is always with us. i mean, with the us went through this, russia gave nonsense here and it continues here. so, i mean, we could talk about, you know, how disturbing or dangerous it is, but it is ubiquitous. and i think that i find it very, very curious because, you know, any, go to la vladimir here in mosque. i mean, it's like a one size fits all of your problems. are because of and then you point the finger . i agree, peter, peter, great you big ubiquitous of my argument is that many respects it's quite superficial and how it lacks purchase at the societal decide to look at some point

. i'm trying to bring a gun to your question about yes. in relation to the western politics on that down, there are kind of, i guess it's a, i'm joe. i touched on russia. i stay aggression themselves on, on the defense. it will close as a classic example of that going on among the relation to that the migration crisis on police search. barrett by the rooster, a da like so, the west western politicians are pointing the finger at russia when it's ashley. it's not russia's problem is why it's not by russian promot others don't. it's a pretty use problem, misty to problem with the use of migration policy for the sub watch. exactly the reality of their own policy, which, which actually is a very current watch, aggressive policy across all he used front is the other figure is, is pointed to russia. well, ag, deborah, the longer we talk,

we always end up agreeing. here we go to vladimir before we go to the break, you wanna comment anything we've just said here. go ahead. vladimir. yeah, i agree with a very particular and with both of you that it's an issue of identity in particular may be what i find fascinating is identity of this liberal elite that, that so there you show that it may be, it was like right wingers or was capitol of socialist, russia, or khomeini's said whatever there was always in on the fifty's in the sixty's. they were always blamed. blaming their openings were being software communism, solve soft on their ads. now somehow they left has to find their, bought their identity, and they have fallen old backwards by blame in russia. i remember when there was a in campaign among democrats, so sort of up seat, obscene trump and the roy i would watch the debates of democrats and it was ridiculous. people who, who are like a local governance could don't know anything or they wouldn't find raj on the map

just by this big size. and they will. well, dual booting, these old you quick. i'm glad of me. hold that thought here we have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on perceptions of rush and stay with our team. and i dream shaped my center centers with for dare's sinks. we dare to ask our new york is really what america is about

when our mayor took our place, he was elected because of his campaign on our city, being a tale of 2 cities, the halves and i have not those who have not are usually the ones who wind up being buried on holiday? the city is always wanted to forget about hold island. so you want it to forget about the people who are buried there. wanting to forget about the fact that there is a potter's field. that there was a place where difficult stories are hidden. the fact that we're using inmates to maintain this active burial site, where 1000000 souls are buried. where so much of new york city history is buried is documents of vienna quality that has existed in the city for centuries. ah

ah ah, welcome back across the dock. were all things considered? i'm peter level to remind you we're discussing perceptions of russia. ah. okay, want to go back to vladimir and finish up a point we're we're making up before we went to the break. i'm glad we, we all seem to be in agreement here. that risk phobia is an elite to issue here. i mean, why is it just the elite here and, and it's very,

very interesting considering the type of a vitriol that is a directed against russia by the elite in the media. it's really interesting that those of us that live here in russia is not reciprocated. there is not that kind of animosity directed against americans or 8 the british or something like that. it's not reciprocal. it's a very weird phenomena. so vladimir, why is it in a lead phenomenon? because i think we're all in agreement when it gets sent to the population, most people kind of whole arm. they like jacob sky. don't scab skis. great. okay, great. so be it films, you know, i mean it's really a mixed bag here, but the, at the very top it's very different. why go ahead? well why one reason i would suggest is that i think most of the a western western lead fray and germans were, they were, they are very much americanized. and that's what we're like it or not. that is a power of american media or american propaganda. all american powell shape, discourse and american liberal

a discourse is now so shaped in the sixty's is that, you know, liberals are on the sympathetic towards a soviet union. now i was all the saw that it became the center or world as what beth things conservatives. this and that, so americans are the dictates a discourse on, i think a lot of french intellectual story leads or whatever they study here as, and they in the sort of air one way or another by as much as they repeat it. but what i find very disturbing about this, the shift is this, the same liberal elite which seems to be running in our like at least media in most of the western counties. there. would it be a would, you know, would we stop right away? blame in any other group because it is right politically, it's not political, correct, but somehow, political correctness stops at the doors of russia in all bets are off and they come up with is mostly because a kind of a. 1 conspiracy theories,

russians and roles in this rationalism that can you imagine, you know, any rest them. but as you can blame in any other county, you know, from aerobic wall, israel listen that you would now imagine it is pointing the finger, they are behind it. it'll be v r screamed and then people will be viewed as and dissimilar, whatever. but it's absolutely fine for this most. it leads sophisticated liberal obedience to blame. russia for god knows what and i, i find it disturbing, but basically it's, it's sin. are they care if a big a big daddy in your uncle, sam is doing it. that means, you know, i'm in a little german station or little french station. i can repeat that to them. oh yeah, exactly. yeah. it's really quite interesting. i'm glad that vladimir brought up all that because during the cold war there was an ideological conflict. very, very real one. okay, very easy to discern here, but the cold war is over. russia is no longer a communist country. it actually has no state ideology to speak of which i by

regrettable at times. okay. it seems to me the animal that the west has to rush is that russia does simply won't accept neil liberal ideology. that is its greatest sin. okay. he will not become like the west. and on top of it, russia and russians have the ability to say, no, we don't want your political correctness. we don't want your woken if we don't want any of it. we can watch it on netflix, but keep it in to yourselves. we're not in in, in it. they, the west hates rush of that. go ahead. zavion paris. yeah, i 3, there is a 2 point. the 1st one russia is seen by the french elite or as a conservative power. woo, pray. bitten her to get pride were privy to the wedding, sir, the gay wedding. her and we will her always support such country like her and gary her and that kind of her of sinks. so for the french elite whizzer mostly are lifted oriented or either either arch enemy,

the 2nd point is like is or that russia is like a therapy for our elite when something went wrong. or we need to find the, or would we can take o responsibility. so we need to find some somebody we can take the the guilt and it happened with the brakes it bracing did at up and because of the opinion. and he's a complete, feder. but because risha organizer referred them to support johnson. we. everybody knows that is a very, a fan of russia. look at what happened during the cubic crisis. france is, are one of the country were, was the worst managed during his crises. zacharon sir, the macro, no management of the crisis is a complete failure. but look at our mid, yes, it's her always talking about always it worse in russia. her that did ally about the figures and so on and so on. so russia was, or was it a therapy for the, for the french, leftist elite enter, it will continue because it's very, as you say is it's very her comfortable and lazy approach. jeffrey,

a comfortable and lazy approach. i couldn't say it better that i think it's absolutely true. i mean, dr. appleton gotten a trump elected president. r o europe will freeze this winter because a potent well though it is because of european incompetence. okay, that's why you have an energy problem. there's actually ample energy in the world, just manage very badly. okay. oh and oh, but since rush has all its energy, it must be, it's fun. it's all. i mean, these people don't make any sense because, but then again, very few people and this program is we push back because it's not hard to push back against all of these ridiculous commentaries. go ahead. jeff and cork. yeah, yeah. you agree? yeah, yes, it is very a cost when i'm lazy, tommy, go. russia. but your politicians don't, you know, not just on council lighting relation to ra russia, that jewelry, in my experience, company laser relation to too many issues. i'm not sure they're all fair. i can't

be, i agree with the statement that rushes conservatism and it's resistance and push back against certain forms of western liberalism is, is paula paul, what's going on here in terms of western prejudice, most of that towards russia, but also, i think, is also not fundamental jill political issue here, which is russia's challenge to, to, to a western dominated world. although the russian alternative to the so called western rose rose rose by st. older and also the fundamental failure of the west to actually contain and deal with the problem of russia in the post cold warriors, the reemergence of russia as a great power on it. since it's assertion of its interests and challenges embarrass as fans, and i'm in the least not because so you know,

i think it's not just a question of prejudice. so laziness on for western politicians from their perspective. russia does present a real problem real chance johnny is a real problem. and i have an underwriter challenge. okay, with med, vladimir, i mean you, how can you talk um, sanely, dispassionately about geo politics. and at the same time talk roles bass order, which i have no idea what that is about to me. it does sound like our way or the highway. that's what that phrase means to me. i mean, is that the, it's a, it's a mistake. it's a fools, aaron, too bad, say geo politics and then you can kind of ideological preferences. i mean, you have to separate them. but if you put, when you put them together, you end up getting this kind of rules based order. ideology, which means are, are rules and you have to be ordered. okay. and you can do both at the same time. and russia says no to both at the same time. again,

that's one of the reasons why these leitz hate russia so much. yeah, i agree with jeffrey that that is, you know, that it's time to reconsider relationship with russia, but many, many, you know, put additions, ill lazy or just, you know, they get used to in it. when you have a 10 year old child, you can say to, to this boy or girl don't do that and they would listen to when the child is 25. you can't do that anymore. it requires a different approach. while the west a but additions, they don't want a different approach. you will though it's smoking at the door. garage is a major energy player. russia is a major culture power. russia is a major play in terms of, you know, climate, you know, it has a big, a steady story, a walk on this is, this would be the 1st one to be considered in our, to, into the game. so it's time to sit down and negotiate. but in our it's, it's much easier to do with a 10 year old child say do audio data says or else,

but this just shows a failure to prepare. i would also say in terms of media, it's a failure either to understand or understand anything. you do have to invest your morsel, love and interest in the country, but it's much easier just to go touch the surface water crowds abuse, arrested. no valley here would have if i me this story but this a taller than say, any subject one studies. if he has to be approach with love and with deep understanding, where exactly am okay. i didn't think we would mention i mr. navarro. he name, but he has it in the val these name has been mentioned here. i suppose that the, the russian foreign ministry of the, the americans want to play that game. then why don't they say, well, we want to know about the human rights condition of 500 plus people that are being kept in prison. as a result of that january, january say hi, and i mean to can play this game. the russians don't do it, they might start doing it. i don't know. i don't speak for the russian government,

but you know, human rights again, this is this one sided that human rights means one thing. and it means only the that for the because as we say it, it has to be applied to the restaurant. but no one can criticize us for human rights. ok. this is the arrogance that really puts out more and more of the world. go ahead. example, of course, and a snowden is inertia. an assault is in a united kingdom in jail. so it's difficult of freud's quite complicated for the, for the west to criticize the russia on the human right. if you look at what happened, no whizzer, with a song. but of course, again, it's her, it's a kind of therapy look at what a burner in france during her, the yellow jackets ah, 2060 paul luster. and i are because of the, of the repression it didn't upon her, of course, not in russia, but even not in belarus. note in the wearing in, in europe. it happens. and so,

but anyway, if you look at her or the, the french germans remains us. there will continue to quit. he says, saying that her put in is a dictator and that russia is not a free country and that the do political or opposition is in jail, a gunner. and claiming that her never only represents something strong in the russia, which is completely a fake news because the men, though a position is the communist party. okay, gentlemen. as a matter fascinating topic, i did discuss with you. i think we need to talk more about different elements of here because as we've all agreed, it is very ubiquitous and it at the end of the day it can be very dangerous because it's a nuclear power. okay, i gentlemen, that's all the time we have one on many thanks them i guess in paris, cork and in moscow. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here, rp, see you next time and remember, cross stuck with ah,

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. they just ask, or something's going to happen. turning off the tap by the roofs temporarily shots, an oil pipeline which runs from russia. poland, adding to the e. u on scheduled maintenance or the 2nd reason for the holds. what comes at a time of heightened tensions between when scan brussels the shop divide emerges over poland tactics with france slamming plan for a massive wall to be built on the border. will look at the top line being taken against people crossing from belarus, while margaret both saw freely crossing the mediterranean and with a us court poised to deliver its verdict and a divisive trial of call, which now accusations fly off bias and defamation. ah

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