estimate the full force of overt racism in fitful and the $198990.00 s. he's published in you pick which contains some surprising and challenging do us how racism operate in wider society player is john binds. the big isn't titled the uncomfortable truth about racism. today, he is in conversation with alex, but 1st you are treat emails and messages in response to i show last week on the continuing with crisis. jayceon wise and says, and my humble opinion, i don't think any of the deval government seems to be listening to the experts any more. this must be because they obviously know better. not. alan says, excellent shoe, as usual. you think that governments would listen to unfolded the advice of these learned men? it's not rocket science after all. but common sense seems to me that it's more about course in the greater good. keep up the good and valuable work. stevie mac says, thanks, alex, bit information on where we are with corporate. i hope the government so the key to

keith of the expert advice. so far it's been a total show have been handled. unbelievable shocking and disgraceful. and finally, kind of nice. some says, my elderly father was really poorly a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find a bed for him in the hospitals. difficult time. wishing a cabinet from all john binds became an english sensation in june, 1984 and the mitochondria stadium in real. when the young, what for the england forward tables do what seemed like the whole brazilian team to score a wonderful. now in a hard to, to pick he question some of the accepted views on the wheel sources of racism in society. he explains his decision to alex john. bon sir, welcome to the alec salmon show. thank you. a john? assume refix evidence in front of the parliamentary committee was quite hot doing this week. when, what was your, what's your take on what seems to say?

well, i don't know why people are surprised. i mean being involved in sports and being involved in society for the last x amount of years. this is something that was a feature of, of, of life generally speaking anyway, particularly sports, you know, have been threatened football awe we know about sledging and crickets. so while it may be surprising for a lot of people who aren't in those environments whereby in a lavish culture, this is what band to that's what people may call bands, reduce friends of mine, work for fords, and for vaux or on the line. and this is language that's used all the time even today, and i don't know why we're trying to make up that cricket or football is different than the rest of society. so this is something that, that, that black people on the stand on is a regular occurrence, a similar fake, at least evidence e. so said luc, asian people get positions or prominence. but that sheila shut them up or is of the essence of truth. and that as well. absolutely. i mean, i've always said that the answer is not to, to give ah marginalized people,

be they black be, they wouldn't be that gay people positions of power and think that's gonna change everything for the majority. doesn't we have to be rep to change the perception of the average back person? the average age is person, the average woman i with asian person. sorry. so ah, but from our perspective in football, we believe and you hear it all the time that black people believe that the, the answer is to give them more positions of prominence. whereas he's actually said that he knows a lot of the south asians who've been asked to, to in the institutions to, to, to come on board. and in many respects it is to shut them up. um, so that really isn't solution either. and is it impossible for someone in these circumstances to, to speak? i mean, the assume if it remembers the captain, the culture, a, the youngest captain of yours should, it should be said he was the captain of yorkshire impulse simona accepted racist and violent for some they say, hey listen, i'm not taking the send them. what is that? is that too much to ask anybody to do? well, it depends on who that person is. because if you want to change it into the mental

health issue and he can look at ben stokes, for example, who can take time out for mental health and see murphy can do that. and, and of course may be a high profile football, but i can the average person take time out. will the average person in the street be the asian black female take time out and say, i want support. i want to be heard. no, they can't say it's okay for an elite person to be able to do that. but this is not the answer for the average person because they will not be supported. and what's the going from the mendoza, assuming the fix evidence was moving well as well as huddling. and it was quite clear that even the come up harden politicians on the committee with affected by the people he was naming and shaming a left perspective with some of them, no doubt with bad people. but as he made the point, some of them of good people that didn't realize what they will do and is that possible in today's society, people don't realize what the look behaving in a racist man. absolutely. 100 percent martin luther king said in 1963, that is the shallow understanding of racial by, by good people,

which is the bigger problem than the told misunderstanding by bad people. and we assume because we wouldn't ratio be somebody sexually abuse a woman or beat up somebody who's gay. therefore when all races, sex or homophobic in any way, we all discriminate and until we accept it within ourselves to a certain degree, nothing will change. all we lose point the finger, the ones who get caught like gary balance for example, or whoever else gets caught in football. there's pete the bears, and is liam neeson. and we assume that that's the solution to the problem. it's not we have to can ourselves because we are all culpable. but your argument less ton to your booth. when you said the uncomfortable truth about racism, what was the uncomfortable but that you were driving it? they'll come from the truth is that we are all racists to a certain extent. of course, if you're black, you know, can we erase it was on the black people, however, how would you feel about and i wasn't being disingenuous, but i know that of course race is a big topic. so it's really, it's an intellectual book. it's about discrimination. so it's really the uncomfortable truth about discrimination. and the fact is we all discriminate to

a certain degree. and until we accept it within ourselves, nothing will change. and that's what the essence of the book is on. the uncomfortable truth is not as simple as a black and white situation because you do have, luckily from the jamaica point of view. how do we feel about about trinidad ian's or nigeria to gannons or elite middle class jamaicans? as i am an up towards black working class jamaicans, so there is discrimination that as well. so it's not about racism. it's really about discrimination. and most of us wouldn't let stand the stand of our member. many years ago when i was leading us scottish bed to get the commonwealth games against nigeria, i started off with the assumption that all of the, the black countries would be supporting nigeria to look in. eames came up and said, there's no way we're supporting chileya hogue. so this is where it's very nuanced and of course, you know, i'm an a group of people who are discriminated against. and hor forgot about a white working class people because you know, they are discriminated against. and no one talked about them now. ah, that is, that is a big issue because they are now not only being forgotten about but the, the black community being told that the reason for their discontent are white

working class people who are racist. now, white working class, people haven't got an influential control over um, nice crime, education jobs, housing that black people are sometimes not being, not able to get. but they're being told that because of some racist fan or some hungarian fan working class people. the reason why we have racism in this, in this country, rather than systemic by so it's a, it's a very complicated subject. but as one of the arguments you put forward that have to put forward that luke is important, not just how many players like playoffs in arlington and football, but how many black manages, how many black faces in the book jamal asian faces for you? you put stress on that, is that because you to lay thing it to power structures or? well, it's more to do with as, as murphy said, ah, in terms of who do you point the finger at it. so what happens is for our powerful blackledge or taking the knee for inclusion and for and we talk about that. they say it's not just the black. last math is about all fault of discrimination. i

never heard one person mentioned the fact that there are no asian pakistan, bangladesh, or indian footballers. that's not even on the agenda. and in terms of black managers, that's not even on the agenda either. so it's very easy to point the finger at a family throws up on on the field or who abuses you on twitter. however, real is that real racism, as i like to call it, is up the majority of it. you can see it's, it's obvious the overt racism, the bananas and the and the twitter. but of course, when you look at the fact that there are 30 percent blackfoot bowlers and they are probably less than 2 percent black managers. as much as black managers aren't being racially abused, the fact is that they're not being given opportunities. so why don't we speak about that? and vast that for me is a bigger problem. but when you brought through in 1980, so sir, 1st understanding player for, for what formed in england, i mean those only a handful of black players. and i guess because, well, at that particular time, there was a perception of a black plays ability, football as ability physically, mentally playing in certain positions, positions of responsibility,

goal keeping. whereas you have to be, you played on the wing, you have to be fast. the don't think too much that opening positions of responsibility, those mits anal dispelled because you've got black goalkeepers, you've got black center hobbs, and more importantly, and i don't mean there's a lot of black people take this wrong way. when i say this, you have a lot of black footballers while making lots of money, who aren't very good. now, we saw the english. you can have a black person who is curling as much money as a white person who is even as good as long as some white place. and that for me shows that in terms of the playing, but from the playing perspective, from a physical perspective, there's no racism, a tall, racial, biased towards black players. now to be a manager, you have to be able to think. now, what is the perception of your capability to, of the, of your ability to lead or a woman's ability to lead a fortune 500 country, or a gay person billeted fighting a war. and this is what we have to dispel. so it must be got lots of black players . now the next step is management. and that is where you have to have the perception of a black person, not a black footballer, a black person's ability to think it can be a book again,

what sure. a key audience for this book, who you're trying to, to get this message across that i'm trying to get the message across to are the people who think they aren't biased because everybody will agree with what i say possibly. but they won't think it's them. because we all know that people are sexes, people are biased. people are race, is people homophobic. i got off the train and at you sent it in. i was walking to the taxi. i heard the conversation going on and i don't know what the conversation was about, but the foreman actually said to the man, i didn't see who they were. they were having this discussion, an argument about something. and he said, that's a very northern attitude to have on, of course, i know that he didn't meet it as a compliment. so what is the perception that he has of northerners and this is why the book told him, ask him if it was no other than jamaica. nolan, what for that is built in jamaica. they have a different perspective on the people on the north coast or from kingston and the grill, amounting about north colton in kingston. we have a view of them probably being inferior because we're from that. so therefore, the, the bias that we all have is based on a perception that around perception that we have based on ridiculous things like,

for example, when i 1st came to england in 1976, you have all of these iris jokes and irish people were thick and i thought i didn't think i'd ignore the irish people, but, and i was like kidding, i was jokes because patty's effect, that's what i was told, which is not. and of course i want to talk about scottish people when i went started playing football and we went to the bar and talk about scottish people not buying a drink, which obviously isn't true, but this is how perception stick. when you have people telling you things on true, let's take a o full view list for the say, well, isn't this just a question of football becoming more cosmopolitan? a as it becomes more cosmo bolton, it will by definition become less racist. i mean, there's more difficult no, impossible, of course for fans to target a blight player. witness one or 2 black players running about in the opposing team . it does become a bit more difficult if you will. half the said is black and half the other side display what it really depends on how well those black players play, because we've seen offering them is those penalties when all of a sudden we spoke about this new own inclusive england football team because we're

winning matches and of course, as soon as they 3 of them miss penalties, you can see what happens. so the solution isn't for you to have more black players, because what will happen is if they play well, we loved them and if they don't play well, we'll abuse them. so the whole idea of most santa changing the perception of people towards muslims is not. it was a terrible clary wouldn't. and then if he leaves liverpool next, the next year, he isn't gonna change after that, he's not real. because of course we know sports is so emotive than fans will love you if you get some success, no matter who you are. but if you don't get them success, that is where their preconceived ideas and they're on conscious bikes in terms of the way they've been conditioned, takes them back to then, what do i believe of this person? very much like if a female referee walked onto the field before with your capabilities, most men will think, i think a man would be better until they see that she's very good at the man is no good. then they may change, but the unconscious past that they have is that men are better than women of buffering football matches. think kimberly gave me love john. it would be anything

that you saw in a symbol, but she would say, yeah, we are finally getting some we're, we're finally making the break for audio. who that is happening gradually, or are we still back in the dark ages, or the can lose highlight the issues and that's what football has always done from the champions league 30 years ago and use the passage rat call down the line. it is highlighting the problem, taking in these, highlighting the problem. what is next? we have to be something tangible and sport can't do anything to change people's perceptions. if we live in a racially, by sexes, homophobic society until detached with in society, it will exist in all walks of society. you can't take football or crickets out of that or the police for example, and then say we have to get rid of it in these industries or these institutions. we have to get rid of it in society 1st. because any football before your football fan before your policeman before your crickets or or cricket fan, you're a member of society. and you carrier sensibilities with you. you don't all of a sudden going to these industries or institutions and then become biased in any way. and that's what we have to talk to, we have to take in society, but we're doing the all the way around at home to come back after the break less exactly what we're going to be talking about racism. and why does society

ah, or new york? it's really what america is about in our mayor took our place. he was elected because of his campaign on our city, being a tale of 2 cities, the house and i have none. and those who have not are usually the ones who weren't being buried on holiday. the city is always wanted to forget about hold island. city is wanted to forget about the people who are buried there. wanted to forget about the fact that there is a potters field that there was a place where difficult stories are hidden. the fact that we're using inmates to maintain this active burial site, where 1000000 souls are buried. where so much of new york city history is buried is

documents of the inequality that has existed in this city for centuries. ah, welcome back. alex's in conversation is one of the finest step follows to greece in england. but there is much more to john binds, an educated john bunce, he was saying he can't separate racism and sport from racism. why does society? but if that's the case, then i will look in the wrong direction or try to eliminate it and spoke when we should be trying to eliminate that through society. absolutely. we do the wrong way and not just in sport from an elite point of view. you have to look at, and of course us, that's the intersection book in terms of sexism, homophobia, all kinds of discrimination. you have to look to, to get rid of it at the bottom, and they'll go up to the top rather, need all the way around because the hundreds of years,

we believe that getting more elite, black people, women, gay people into positions will then change everything down below, but it won't, we have to change the perception of the average person, the average gay person, the average woman, and then you'll have many more of them making it up to the top by their own volition rather than thinking we can pull them up. if more people get up to the top, so, and as than that, that's to do with society. think about your own bigler, john buttons. your father when you came thing with him sir. military? tasha the jamaica high commissioner. you went to a grammar school, so you don't come from an under privileged background rubin relative, certainly to most white people. you give them a pretty privileged background. don't alter the way you were treated when will you better treated the grammar school? and you would have been at the local corporate house. absolutely. that's why i don't look at my experiences and look at either racism or, or, or blackness for my own point of view. because i, and what i, i struggle with is i struggle to capitalize on certain aspects of blackness, while not enduring the everyday reality of the back of the black experience. that

average black people working class black people go through. because as you say, i came as a military essay son. my son was at st. hers with andrew possibles. ah, we lived in highgate, we lived in mayfair. my dad had a chauffeur, i went to a grammar school that had 17, i became a footballer. so having not gone through everyday experience as much as living in london with my friends who were black, i saw what they went through. i don't know what their families went through. so i understand racism and understand that that is the races we really have to change, not just for a black person because he's black because a black, a lead person may go through or experience racist incidents when a banana comes on the feel. if relax and you can get an oscar, whereas black people do this every day, and that's what we have to challenge that everyday experience of the non elite black people, none of these women nominate gay people and i don't go through that and people like me do not go through that, but you would have filled the norman tab cricket test if you remember, norman tablet, but a prominent to conserve to politician said that he was always white people being black as long as his foot english cricketing useful at the west end it. i would

have, i would have fell to norman cupboard cricket test, but i, i probably would have gone to university got a nice job and even a nice big house, but a can play cricket. whereas although the average black personally fails enrollment, that with cricket, cricket test can get a house counselor job can get access to a social care. and that's much more important than me not being able to play cricket or football if i feel the cricket test, because i would still and why i think this way. because growing up in jamaica, which is an all black country, i saw the way working class black people were treated by middle upper class and leave black people. so it's not as simple is much more nuanced and black and white intuition. it's about elite ism about capitalism and it's about discrimination and vice generally. and famously, and the liverpool, darby, or even you casually almost said footie the banana off the field of a famous instant. do you have the assurance with that face who fill the poise at least i would think and think a lot of places it was that because of your inner confidence in you and your own

self that you would able to do that or when you bought or you just try and get the ball. that is a very poignant picture. i do not remember doing that at all. i don't think it was 198-819-8788 i've been playing football says 1981. and when i played, and it's not because it's west that more mill wall or anywhere else that was happening every single week. a banana came on the field. now this is because his birth, emerson versus liverpool in a high profile, matched with the best things in the country. it was highlighted, but that was happening every week, up and down the country. so while people looked at that, and then all of a sudden there's an example of an elite situation whereby we're making a big deal of an elite situation whereby we had ignored that for years before when it's already been happening. and maybe it was appropriate and it was great that people have started to talk about it, but that was nothing new. and that is why i say i do not remember doing that at all because she's had nieces to happen so often. and the same thing roughly happen, mot walters in scotland. it was only when a very high profile reading just play a banana for one of the all of a sudden it was realized that chris was more unusual. it's called because of mass

black way. yes. but if one of the pakistan house americans, calvin beach, nothing would have been settled on. so somebody with tumbling, pointless to that because a focus of attention of whether it's a turning point in terms of highlighting the issues, which is fantastic. and we're still doing it now highlighting the issue, taking the lea. we're not talking about why we're taking in the, we're not talking about a tangible difference that we can make after we've taken the need to say, what are we going to do next? it's just about whether we should take any or not. that's what the conversation is, not why. we're actually taking the knee on what it's all about. so once again, these gestures are fantastic to highlight the issue, but they can do nothing to change. the issue of racism and breath on wrestling with a particular. is it an imperial past thing? is that something it's essentially a boatley empire on the boat visions and perceptions of a black people as well. what does black people, you can look at the opium or it's in china, and you can see what happened in india and not about black. it is about imperialism . it is about empire. and of course, we have our when since 2nd,

when central chanel lead in the country and of course is quite poignant that we talk about the cricket, the parliamentary involvement, and now the cricket. and the language that use in cricket. when we know the language that's used by our most important person in terms of what he considers women with burke us to look like. and i remember a headline one headline, a quote that he talked about on boys and tank tops. so the language that he uses is acceptable because when, unfortunately when you're in charge, you get to say what the rate is and whatnot. but we're now talking about language that's on acceptable in crickets on football. but the man who got the most power in the land had used language as unacceptable. no one questions that she think the cultural sport committee should call the prime minister. well, um a lot of this is hearsay not from the prime minister. put in terms of people say, i didn't say that, i didn't say that i said this, i didn't say that, i think that we knows. we know that he actually said or just being completely ignored, where he tended to write it down. of course. well, that's

a particularly clever what it's not a problem isn't because what, what is his come up and for writing it down, he became the prime minister. us, i'm going to get something on the record in the us because you've caught a cape las come to you that the jamaica like me, you can played for any of the home. come you can play for scotland. absolutely. and if they come asking, he would have played 100 percent and i tell you why not because i would have wanted to pay for scotland. because if we are all honest then that's why the book is called him come from the truth. because his about his being honest. yeah. now this is not nothing to we don't come to the truth about racism. but, and i don't want to get anybody who place to scotland, who is a scottish are out who is an irish whales who is in welsh. however, if they have an opportunity and england ask them they will play freeman 1st as much as people will say no. but a lot of them arm is normally. they don't play for england because you haven't asked them. and then like when he jones wells comes to ask him when he's 28, he says yes, i think the nasty order said yes, jason mcintosh on all his teammates of mine, paid for on and on there from liverpool. com. so it's normally,

you're asked by the so called, ah, so called lesser countries 1st. so england for asked me 1st at 18 years old men asked me to play. and i forgot to 21 and england and asked me to play in scotland. did absolutely will to pay for scotland. well, she adams has made almost the same point. justin and the last few weeks i'm standing outstanding and yet, and like who would have play for you? and i mean, it probably not quite in these tabs. be said luke, i thought i could make a difference to, to the, to the scott where say, the think about the onset, you have to be honest, you know, because, and we know that's the reality because there's nothing worse than being disingenuous or trying to kill people that you've always wanted to pay for scotland, your whole life type of thing, you know, mean, so you'd rather just be honest about it and he gives a 100 percent for scotland and i would have given hardships and for scotland. and i say that that in advance, you know, if i pay for scotland or wales, i wouldn't even a 100 percent because that is who i identify with that, that particular time. and i used to pierce as an example of this was the quintessential englishman, british bulldog spirits. he's got the,

there's tattoo on there. 100 percent? freeman. yeah, 69. england caps if you had 68 in england captain, a 69 cap. we don't know how happened to for france against england. he was given a 100 percent because his pride, his affiliation with his new team, meant that he would give a 100 percent. and that is where this whole idea about what it means to be british or english. and it needs more to us than anybody else got on them. or bob, rocky to say was, you know, should be more to us. why should it be more for england to beat nigeria than nigeria to be thing them because her english were more important than you know, we love each other more than, than the nigerian. so the whole idea of nationalism really is not a, i'm not a big fan of, but let me tell you, it made a very considerable, just a difference to the scope and team of the it is in length is with consonants on a nicholas and when a good night out, it would have been if it does look good in the field as well. i'm just interested in the, the boot the since the, when you are on the way to or maybe back from brazil in baton, the montana state. and when you travel past the entire team and school,

one of go as a young player, nathan, 84 and the national front support to serve on the plane. because the legal team at that stage and travel didn't the installment stealing your attitude to that. tell me a bit more about that. i'm really interested. why didn't you go and supplement, get somebody else to focus on once again, this was a regular occurrence of football. you know, this wasn't the 1st time routine, national front flags in the, in the stadiums. when we went to play in england and walking on the street, this was the, you know, it's a retrospectively looking back, people who don't understand what life would like back then are appalled and saying how, how could it be? and because we forget what it was like, but if you're old enough to remember at that time, the national trans, broken down on the streets. so therefore, it wasn't that it wasn't anything unusual. it was a little more unusual to see them on the plane with us. we realize they refunded. but of course, at that particular time, this was just an accepted part and you know, you all those press men who are on the who are now still around. now, by the way, who are now shouting from the high, from, from the heavens about racial discrimination,

our target isn't it should be allowed. no one said a word back then. now i've how they changed their perception now or did he just know how no to get over to think stanley you school of the most memorable, in my opinion, in english history, the august us again, scott is excellent. but that's why i believe that your goal against brazil was the most memorable go and linguist football history, but your score and whatnot. and they say, or people like them say, well not coating that because it's all about like, you know, when i crossable for marketing is going the 2nd says probably a little draw. look, i think i can promise you that no scott, on spotwood i would have said, i know, of course of course i'm gonna think about that is that, i mean, i cannot that ignorant people affect me in any way, shape or form. so that did not upset me at all because all these people are ignorant. so therefore, why are they going to upset me? ah, with an issue that they have now know, other people think differently and if they feel disenfranchised, and they want to, you know, feel less than i completely empathize with them, but that could never have to me. so what makes the for john biles where you've made

a considerable impact in your views and in this book, in particular, no uncontroversial. some people say it's not the way attitude, but many people support what you're saying, and it makes people think so. so what makes for, for john, but well keep doing what i'm doing. i'm, i'm trying to wider the conversation to, to the non elite people in the, in as it is the safe can have more support for them or can they have a voice rather than just the elite for, continue to do that. and at the other consent of the field to play that, that i used to, to try to take politics as john barnes, not only political aspirations whatsoever. none whatsoever could have no political solution to the, the, to discrimination. no political solution whatsoever. john barnes, thank you so much for joining me in the alexandria. thank you. if al gore, with intent on telling the world to buy the inconvenience is there climate change? john binds is telling the uncomfortable facts about racism. the binds argument is

that much of the anti racist rhetoric is superficial, that we should be more concerned with racism in borton's than on the day. the thing was, contains at racism as it, deeply imbued and england's imperial past. and that extend to his people suffer from racist abuse is determined by class and power. his dues are challenging for government and football authorities. the lake that does not make them i know from alex myself and other issue is good by stacy. and we hope to see you all again next ah, ah,

technologist fits perfectly well into the future, but we can't change our way of thinking in a way that we can visualize how we will fit in how we will feel and how our needs will be in 50 years, so our own do our own technological debunk things always further wrong than our ability to feed for an hour ourselves to be more efficient for quicker with our transactions. but with that comes a trade off. every device is a potential entry point for security at any machine can be here. it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers permit when one comes option in the offering. it's not

a matter of, if it happens, it's a matter of went because our top headlines to run our teeth and protests to sweep europe as a government clamped down. yet again in response to spiraling cobra cases. a germany is expected to issue tough. new rules for it to unvaccinated citizens at some point today, also this hour the season animals, but we are not on it. i saw a very hard when i saw poland, you see your gas against women and children now. i thought other european countries would be no different aggressive treatment at the hands of polish border gods leave migrants demoralized with many of them telling us they just want to go home. all sort a

divisive trial.