jayceon wise and says, and my humble opinion, i don't think any of the deval government seems to be listening to the experts any more. this must be because they obviously know better. not. alan says, excellent shoe, as usual. you think that governments would listen to unfolded the advice of these learned men? it's not rocket science after all. but common sense seems to me that it's more about course in the greater good. keep up the good and valuable work. stevie mac says, thanks, alex. good information on where we are with corporate. i hope the government so the key to keith of the expert advice. so far it's been a total show have been handled. unbelievable, shocking and disgraceful. i'm finally kind of new. some says, my elderly father was really poorly a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find a bid for him in the hospitals. difficult time wishing your cognitive motor said. john binds became an english sensation in june 1984 and the mitochondria stadium in real. when the young, what for to england forward triples do what you might,

the whole brazilian seem to score a wonderful now in a hard to, to pick he question some of the accepted views on know we'll sources of racism in society. he explains his decision to alex john. bon sir, welcome to the alec salmon show. thank you. a john? assume refix evidence in front of the parliamentary committee was quite huddling this week when, what was your, what's your take on what seemed to say? well, i don't know why people are surprised. i mean being involved in sport and being involved in society for the last x amount of years. this is something that was a feature of, of, of life generally speaking anyway, particularly sports, you know, have been through to football awe. we know about sledging in cricket. so while it may be surprising for a lot of people who aren't in those environments whereby in a lavish culture, this is what bound to that's what people may call boundaries. youth friends of mine, work for fords and,

and for vox olds on the line. and this is language that's used all the time even today, and i don't know why we are trying to make up the cricket or football is different than the rest of society. so this is something that, that, that black people on the stand on is a regular occurrence, a c, murphy in his evidence. e. so said luc, asian people get positions or prominence, but actually shut them up. there is an essence of truth and that as well. absolutely, i mean, i've always said that the answer is not to, to give ah marginalized people, be they black be they women, be that gay people positions of power and think that's going to change everything for the majority. doesn't we have to be have to change the perception of the average back person, the average ages, person, the average woman? i was agent person. sorry. so ah, but from our perspective in football, we believe and you hear it all the time that black people believe that the, the answer is to give them more positions of prominence. whereas he's actually said that he knows a lot of saw the south asians who've been asked to, to in the institutions to, to, to come on board. and in many respects it is to shut them up. um,

so that really isn't solution either or is it impossible for someone in these circumstances to, to speak? i mean the assume if it remembers the captain, the yoga. a, the youngest captain of yours should, it should be said he was the captain. a yorkshire import simona accepted racist and violent for some they say, hey, listen, i'm not taking the send. and what is that? is that too much to ask anybody to do? well, it depends on who that person is. because if you want to change it into the mental health issue and he can look at ben stokes for example, who can take time out for mental health. and i see him if he can do that. and of course maybe a high profile football. but i can the average person take time out with the average person in the street, be the agent black female. take time out and say i want support, i want to be heard. no, they can't say it's okay for an elite person to be able to do that. but this is not the answer for the average person because they will not be supported. and what's the good from the men, the assuming the fix evidence was moving as well as hobbling. and it was quite

clear that even the ca harden politicians on the committee was affected by the people he was naming and shaming. left perspective with some of them. no doubt were bad people, but he made the point with some of them of good people that didn't realize what that will do. and is that possible in today's society, people don't reliance with them when they're behaving a race. us man, absolutely. 100 percent. martin luther king's that a $963.00. that is the shallow understanding of racial biased by good people, which is the bigger problem than the told misunderstanding by bad people. and we assume because we wouldn't ratio be somebody sexually abuse a woman or beat up somebody who's gay. therefore, when all races sexes are homophobic in any way, we all discriminate until we accept it within ourselves to a certain degree. nothing will change. all we lose point the fingers once we get caught, like gary balance for example, or whoever else gets caught in football. there's pete bears that is liam neeson. and we assume that that's the solution to the problem. it's not we have to can ourselves because we are all culpable, the,

your altima less ton to your boot. when you said the uncomfortable truth about racism. what was the uncomfortable bed that you were driving up? don't come for the truth is that we are all races to a certain extent. of course, if you're black and can be rated welt on the black people, however, how would you feel about and i wasn't being disingenuous, but i know that of course race is a big topic. so it's really, it's an intellectual book. it's about discrimination. so it's really the uncomfortable truth about discrimination. and the fact is we all discriminate to a certain degree. and until we accept it within ourselves, nothing will change. and that's what the essence of the book is on. the uncomfortable truth is not as simple as a black and white situation because you do have look at it from the jamaican point of view. how do we feel about about trinidad ian's or nigeria to gannons or elite middle class jamaicans? as i am, i'm up towards black working class jamaicans, so there is discrimination that as well. so it's not about racism. it's really about discrimination. and most of us wouldn't let that in the stand of our member. many years ago when i was leading us

a scottish bed to get the commonwealth games against nigeria, i started off with the assumption that all of the, the black countries would be supporting nigeria to look in. eames came up and said there's no way we're supporting chileya hogue. so this is where it's very nuanced. and of course, you know, i'm an a group of people who are discriminated against. and hor forgot about a white working class people because you know they are discriminated against. and no one talked about them. now. ah, that is. that is a big issue because they're now not only being forgotten about but the, the black community being told that the reason for their discontent are white working class people who are racist. now, white working class, people haven't got an influential control over um, nice crime, education jobs, housing that black people are sometimes not being, not able to get. but they're being told that because of some racist fan or some hungarian fan working class people. the reason why we have racism in this, in this country, rather than systemic by so it's a, it's a very complicated subject. but as one of the arguments you put forward,

i have to put forward that luke is important, not just how many players like playoffs in arlington and football, but how many black manager, how many black faces in the book, jamal asian faces for you? you put stress on that, is that because you to lay thing at the polar stop just or well it's more to do with as, as murphy said, ah, in terms of who do you point the finger at it. so what happens is for our powerful blackledge or taking the knee for inclusion and for and we talk about that. they say it's not just the black. last math is about all fault of discrimination. i never heard one person mentioned the fact that there are no asian pakistan, bangladesh, or indian footballers. that's not even on the agenda. and in terms of black managers that's on in, on the agenda either. so it's very easy to point the finger at a family throws up on on the field or who abuses you on twitter. however, real is that real racism, as i like to call it, is up the majority of it. you can see it's, it's obvious the overt racism, the bananas and the and the twitter. but of course, when you look at the fact that there are 30 percent blackfoot bowlers and they are

probably less than 2 percent black managers. as much as black managers aren't being racially abused, the fact is that they're not being given opportunities. so why don't we speak about that? and vast that for me is a bigger problem. but when you brought through in 1980, so sir, 1st understanding player for, for what formed in england, i mean those only a handful of black players. and i guess because, well, at that particular time, there was a perception of a black plays ability, football as ability physically, mentally playing in certain positions, positions of responsibility, goal keeping. whereas you have to be, you played on the wing, you have to be fast. the don't think too much that opening positions of responsibility, those mid anal dispelled because you've got black goalkeepers, you've got black center hobbs and more importantly, and i don't mean this a lot of black people take this wrong way. when i say this, you have a lot of blackwood wallace while making lots of money, who aren't very good. now, we saw the english. you can have a black person who is turning as much money as a white person who is even as good as old as some white place. and that for me

shows that in terms of the playing, but from the playing perspective, from a physical perspective, there is no racism, a tall, racial, biased towards black players. now to be a manager, you have to be able to think. now, what is the perception of your capability to of the, of your ability to lead or woman's ability to lead a fortune 500 country or a gay person, but it had fighting a war, and this is what we have to dispel. so it must be got lots of black players. now the next step is management and that is where you have to have the perception of a black person, not a black footballer, a black person's ability to think. thank you by your booth again. what? sure. a key audience for this book who you're trying to get this message across. i'm trying to get the message across to are the people who think they aren't biased . because everybody will agree with what i say possibly. but they won't think it's them. because we all know that people are sexy. people are biased. people are race, is people homophobic. i got off the train and at you sent it in. i was walking to the taxi. i heard a conversation going on and i don't know what the conversation was about,

but the foreman actually said to the man, i didn't see who they were. they were having this discussion, an argument about something. and he said, that's a very northern attitude to have. and of course, i know that he didn't meet it as a compliment. so what is the perception that he has of northerners? and this is why the book told him, ask him if it was no other than jamaica. nolan walked for like 20 feet in jamaica. they have to listen, but perspective on the people on the north coast, i'm from kingston and the grill, amounting about a north kolton in kingston. we have a view of them probably being inferior because we're from that. so therefore, the, the bias that we all have is based on a perception that around perception that we have based on, on ridiculous things like, for example, when i 1st came to england in 1976 used to have all these irish jokes and irish people were thick and i thought, i didn't think i'd ignore the irish people but, and i was like killing i was jokes because patty's, i think that's what i was told, which is not. and of course i want to talk about scottish people when i went started playing football and we went to the bar and talk about scottish people not buying a drink, which obviously isn't true, but this is how perception stick. when you have people telling you things on true was take her, oh, full view, this for the say, well, isn't this just the question of football becoming more cosmopolitan?

a as it becomes more cosmo bolt and it will by definition become less racist. i mean there is more difficult no impossible. of course for fans to target a blight player. witness one or 2 black pills running about in the opposing team. it does become a bit more difficult if you will. half the save is black and half the other side is what, what it really depends on how well those black players play, because we've seen offering the miss those penalties when all of a sudden we spoke about this new all inclusive england football because we're winning matches and of course, as soon as i, 3 of them is penalties, you can see what happens. so the solution isn't for you to have more black players because what will happen is that they play well, we love them and if they don't play well, we'll abuse them. so the whole idea of most santa changing the perception of people towards muslims is not v for the turbo player. he wouldn't. and then if he leaves liverpool next, next year, he isn't gonna change after that, he's not real. because of course we know sports is so emotive, that fans will love you if you give them success,

no matter who you are. but if you don't get them success, that is where their preconceived ideas and they're on conscious bikes in terms of the way they've been conditioned, takes them back to then, what do i believe of this person? very much like if a female referee walked onto the field before with your capabilities, most men will think, i think a man would be better until they see that she's very good at madison. oh, good. then they may change, but the unconscious bass that they have is that men are better than women of riffing football matches. think kimberly gave me love john. it would be anything that you saw in a symbol, but she would say, yeah, we are finally getting somewhere. we're finally making the break for audio who is happening gradually, or are we still back in the dark ages, or he can do his highlight the issues and that's what football is always done from the champions league 30 years ago when used to pass his red car down the line, it is highlighting the problem taking and he's highlighting the problem. what is next rustic? something tangible and sport can't do anything to change people's perceptions. if we live in a racially, by sexes, homophobic society until the tactics in society,

it will exist in all walks of society. you can't take football or crickets out of that or the police for example, and then say we have to get rid of it in these industries or these institutions. we have to get rid of it in society 1st. because any football before your football fan before your policeman before your cricket or cricket fan, you're a member of society and you carry your sensibilities with you. you don't all of a sudden going to these industries or institutions and then become biased in any way. and that's what we have to talk to, we have to tackle society, but we're doing the all the way round. and when we come back after the break, last exactly what we're going to be talking about, racism. and why does society ah ah, ah, well, oh, a

a, [000:00:00;00] a a finance off of i was on the day with all the money laundering for 2 to 3 different. oh, good story. well, we have our 3 brands all set up here. maybe something in europe, something in america, something overseas and a good. hey, i'm ready to do some serious money laundering. ok, let's see how we did. wow,

we've got a nice laundry watch for stacy. oh, beautiful jewelry. and how about a bill again for mag, you know, it, money, one is highly legal. a welcome back. alex's in conversation is one of the finest step follows to greece in england. but there is much more to join binds in educated john bunce. he will say he can't separate racism and sport from racism wider society. but if that's the case, then i will look in the wrong direction or try to eliminate it and spoke when we should be trying to eliminate that through society. absolutely, absolutely the wrong way and not just in sport from an elite point of view you have to look at. and of course, i said the intersection book in terms of sexism, homophobia, all kinds of discrimination. you have to look to, to get rid of it. um at the bottom and they'll go up to the top rather need all the way around cuz the hundreds of years,

we believe that getting more elite black people, women, gay people to positions will then change everything down below. but it won't. we have to change the perception of the average black person, the average gay person, the average woman, and then you'll have many more of them making it up to the top by their own volition rather than thinking we can pull them up. if more people get up to the top, so understand us that's to do with society. think about your own bigler and john buttons. be your father when you came to him with him. so military. tasha the the to make him high commission, you went to a grammar school so you don't come from an under privileged background rubin relative certainly to most white people who came to have a pretty privileged background. so also the way you were treated when, when you better treated the grammar school and you would have been at the local comprehensive. absolutely. that's why i don't look at my experiences and look at either racism or, or blacklist for my own point of view. because i, i, what i, i struggle with is i struggle to capitalize on certain aspects of blackness,

while not enduring the everyday reality of the back of the black experience. that average black people working class black people go through. because as you say, i came as a military essay son, my son was at st. hers with andrew possibles. we lifted high gate, we lived in mayfair. my dad had a chauffeur, i went to a grammar school that had 17, i became a footballer. so having not gone through the everyday experience as much as living in london with my friends who are black, i saw what they went through and know what their families went through. so i understand races of an understand that danny, the races we really have to change, not just for a black person because he's black because a black, a lead person may go through or experience racist incidents when a banana comes on the field of relax and you can get an oscar, whereas black people do this every day and that's what we have to challenge that everyday experience of the non elite black people. none of these women, not a need gay people. and i don't go through that and people like me do not go through them. but you would have failed the norman tab at cricket test. if you remember, norman talbot, very prominent to conserve to politicians who said that, you know,

it's all white people being black as long as it's for english, cricketing, yeah, it's for the west end. it. i would have, i would have fell to norman period cricket test, but i, i probably would have gone to university got a nice job and even a nice big house, but a can play cricket. whereas although the average black person fails enrollment, that with cricket, cricket test can get a house counselor job can get access to a social care. and that's much more important than me not being able to play cricket or football if a feller cricket test, because i would still and why i think this way. because growing up in jamaica, which is an all black country, i saw the way working class black people were treated by middle upper class and elite black people. so it's not as simple is much more nuanced and a black and white intuition. it's about elite ism about capitalism and it's about discrimination and vice generally. and famously, and they have a liverpool, darby, and even you casually almost said footie the banana off the field of a famous instant. do you have the assurance that these who fill the poise at least i would think and take a fee of opposes it. was that because of you enough confidence in you and your own

self that you would able to do that? or when you bought or you're just trying to get the ball that is a very poignant picture. i do not remember doing that at all. but if it was 198-819-8788. i've been playing football season, 1081. and when i played, and it's not because it's west, i'm old mill waller anywhere else. that was happening every single week. a banana came on the field. now this because his birth, emerson versus liverpool in a high profile, matched with the best things in the country. it was highlighted, but that was happening every week, up and down the country. so while people looked at that, and then all of a sudden there's an example of an elite situation whereby we're making a big deal of an elite situation whereby we had ignored that for years before when it's already been happening. and maybe it was appropriate and it was great that people have started to talk about it, but that was nothing new. and that is why i say i do not remember doing that at all because she said this is to happen so often. and the same thing, roughly half of mot walters in scotland, but it was only when a very high profile read and just play a banana for one of the all of

a sudden it was realized that chris was more unusual. it is called because of mass black. yes, but he wanted to take a stand house americans, calvin, big, nothing would have been said or done. so somebody with tumbling point lambs that, that because the focus of attention of whether it's a turning point in terms of highlighting the issues, which is fantastic. and we're still doing it now highlighting the issue. taking the knee. we're not talking about why we're taking in the, we're not talking about a tangible difference that we can make after we've taken the need to say, what are we going to do next? it's just about whether we should take any or not. that's what the conversation is not why we're actually taking the knee on what it's all about. so once again, these gestures are fantastic to highlight the issue, but they could do nothing to change. the issue of racism in breath on racial in england in particular. is it an imperial past thing? is that something that's essentially about the empire on the boat visions and perceptions of a black people as well? what does black people you can look at the opium or it's in china, and you can, what happened in india said not about black. it is about imperialism. it is about empire. and of course we have um our when since 2nd,

when central chanel leading the country and of course is quite pointed that we talked about the cricket, the parliamentary involvement. and now the crickets and the language that use in cricket. when we know the language that's used by our most important person in terms of what he considers women with burke has to look like. and i, i remember a headline once our headline, a quote that he talked about on boys and tank tops. so the language that he uses is acceptable because when are unfortunately when you're in charge, you get to say what's racist and whatnot. but we're now talking about language that's on acceptable in crickets on football. but the man who got the most power in the land had use language. that's unacceptable. no one questions that she think the cultural sport committee should cold. a prime minister? well, um a lot of this is hearsay not from the prime minister in terms of people say, i didn't say that. i didn't say that i said this, i didn't say that. but think that we knows we know that he actually said, or just being completely ignored when he tended to write it down. of course. well,

that's a particularly clever what he's not a problem, is it? because what, what is his comeuppance for writing it down? he became the prime minister. this i'm going to get something on the record, the as because you came to this country that the drink like me, you can played for any of the home can play for scotland. absolutely. and if they come asking, he would have played 100 percent and i'll tell you why not because i would have wanted to pay for scotland. because if we are all honest then that's why the book is called him company truth. because as about us being honest, now this is not nothing that we don't come to the truth about racism. but, and i don't want to get anybody who placed the scotland, who was the scottish ira out, and who was an irish? well, who is in welsh. however, if they have an opportunity and england ask them they will play for england 1st. as much as people will say no, but a lot of them arm is normally. they don't play for england because you haven't asked them. and then, like vinnie jones wales comes to ask him when he's $28.00, he says yes, if it's not he would have said yes, jason mac returns on august. he made of mine paid for on and then there from

liverpool. com. so it's normally, you're asked by this, the so called, ah, so called lesser countries for a. so england for asked me 1st, at 18 years old, even asked me to play. and i forgot to 21 and england and asked me to play in scotland. it absolutely would. scotland? well, she adams this with almost the same point, justin and the last few weeks out, standing outstanding. okay. that anybody who would apply for it? probably not quite in these terms. be said luke, i thought i could make a difference to, to the, to the scotland say that i think about how the onset, you have to be honest, you know, because, and we know that's the reality because there's nothing worse than being disingenuous or trying to kid people that you've always wanted to pay for scotland, your whole life type of thing. you know what i mean? so you'd rather just be honest about it and he gives a 100 percent for scotland and i would have given hardships and for scotland. and i say that that england, france, you know, if i pay for scotland or wales, i would have been a 100 percent because that is who i identify with that particular time. and i used to pierce as an example of this use. the quintessential englishman,

british bulldog spirits. he's got the his tattoo on there. 100 percent bringing. yeah. 69. england caps if he had 60 i think england captain a 69 cap. we don't know how happened to be for france against england. he was given a 100 percent because his pride, his affiliation with his new team, meant that he would give a 100 percent. and that is where this whole idea about what it means to be british or english. and it needs more to us than anybody else got on them. when bob, rocky to say was, you know, should mean more to us. why should it be more for england to be to nigeria than nigeria to be thing because her english were more important than you know, we love each other more than, than the nigerian. so the whole idea of nationalism really is not a, i'm not a big fan of, but let me tell you, it made a very considerable dis, a difference to the scotland team of the it is a 9th is with consonants on a nicholas when, when a good night out, it would have been if it does say a good on the field as well a, i'm just interested in the, the book listen to the when you were on the way to or maybe back from brazil been

but towards the montana stadium when you're durable past the entire team and school wonder boy as a young player, 1984. unless national front support to serve on the plane because the legal team of that stage and travel plans traveling and stealing your attitude to that. tell me a bit more about that. i'm really interested why didn't you go in the supplement, get somebody else to fuck not. well, once again, this was a regular occurrence of football. you know, this wasn't the 1st time routine, national from flags in the, in the stadiums. when we went to play in england and walking down the street, this was the, you know, it retrospectively looking back. people who don't understand what life would like back then are appalled and saying how, how could it be? and because we forget what it was like, but if you're old enough to remember at that time, the national front, broken down on the streets. so therefore, it wasn't that it wasn't anything unusual. it was a little bit more unusual to see them on the plane with us. we realize they refunded. but of course, at that particular time, this was just an accepted part and you know, you order those press men who are on the who are now still around. now by the way, who are now shouting from the high, from,

from the heavens about racial discrimination. our tablet isn't it should be allowed . no one said a word back then. now i've how they changed their perception now or did he just know how not to get even to the extent you school, the most memorable, in my opinion, in english history. the against got is excellent, but that's why i believe that your goal against brazil was the most memorable. go with linguist football history, but it's got a wonderful and they sale or people like them say, we're not coating that because it's one of our black. yeah. when i crossable for market is going to 2nd, so it's probably a little draw. look, i think i can promise you that no scott on sports or would ever have said, of course, of course i'm gonna think about that is that, i mean, i cannot let ignorant people affect me in any way, shape or form. so that did not upset me at all because all of these people are ignorance. so therefore, why are they going to upset me with an issue that they have now know other people think differently and if they feel disenfranchised, and they want to, you know, feel less than i completely empathize with them. but that could never happen to me

. so what makes the from john bios we've made a considerable impact in your views and in this book in particular nor uncontroversial some people say it's not the way attitude, but many people support what you're saying and it makes people think so. so what makes for, for john bus? well, keep doing what i'm doing. i'm trying to wire the conversation to, to the non elite people in the, in a city the safe come have more support for them than they have a voice rather than just the elite for company to do that. and the other room sort of the field to play that the i used to to try to play politics as john barton's natalie. let's go aspirations whatsoever. none whatsoever, because there's no political solution to the to discrimination. no political solution whatsoever. john barnes, thank you so much for joining me. and i'll examine sure. if al gore, with the intent on telling the world by the inconvenient to the climate change, john bonds is telling the uncomfortable facts about racism. de bonds argument is

that much of the anti racist rhetoric is superficial, that we should be more concerned with the racism. and the borton's done on the table once contains racism. is it deeply imbued and england impeded past? and that the extent to which people suffer from racist abuse is determined by class and power. his dues are challenging for government and football authorities the like that does not make them more. i know from alex myself and all the issue is good by stacy, i mean hope to see you all again next week. ah

ah. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk. we're empowering ourselves to be more efficient, quicker with our transactions. but with that comes a trade off every device as a potential entry point for security attack. any machine can be it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers. both with mm hm. there's one called selection in the water.

it's not a matter of, if it happens, it's a matter of went with protests, sweep europe as governments clump done yet again in response to rising cobit cases, germany is expected shortly to issue tough. new rules for its own vaccinated citizens. also this hour they seizes animals and we are not even if i saw happen to the board. i called a very hard when i saw poland used to your gas against women and children. i thought other european countries would be no different after days of tensions. the poland beller roost. border begins to clear after demoralized migrants choose warm shelter instead of facing cure galsen water cannon. the rock is now sending plains