i thought of the standing black clears to meet the full force of overt racism and fitful, and the 198990 s. he's published a new book, which contains some surprising and challenging do us how racism operate in wider society player is john barnes. the big isn't titled the uncomfortable truth about racism. today he is in conversation with alex, but 1st to your tweets emails and messages in response to actual last week on the continuing call with crisis. jayceon wiseman says, and my humble opinion, i don't think any of the deval government seems to be listening to the experts anymore. this must be because they obviously know better. know, alan says, excellent shoe, as usual. you think that governance would listen to unfolded the advice of these learned men? it's not rocket science after all. but common sense seems to me that it's more about course in the greater good. keep up the good and valuable work. stevie mac

says, thanks, alex, bit information on where we are with corporate. i hope the government so do you get to keith of the expert advice so far it's been a total shot. have it's been handled. unbelievable. shocking on this. great. i'm finally kind of nice. some says, my elderly father was really poorly a couple of weeks ago and couldn't find a bid for him in the hospital a difficult time. wishing a cognitive john binds became an english sensation in june, 1984, and the matter kind of stadium in real when the young what for the england forward triple do what you might, the whole brazilian team to score a wonderful now in a hydrogen bic, he question some of the accepted views on the real sources of racism in society. he explains his decision to alex john. bon sir, welcome to the alec salmon show. thank you. hey, john. assume refix evidence in front of the parliamentary committee was quite harling this week. or been, what was your, what's your take on what seems to say,

well, i don't know why people are surprised. i mean, being involved in sports and being involved in society for the last x amount of years. this is something that was a feature of, of, of life, generally speaking anyway, particularly the sport. you know, we've been through it in football awe. we know about sledging and crickets. so while it may be surprising for a lot of people who aren't in those environments whereby in a lavish culture, this is what banter, that's what people may callback reduced friends of mine work for fords and for vox all on the line. and this is language that's used all the time even today, and i don't know why we're trying to make out that cricket or football is different than the rest of society. so this is something that, that, that black people understand um is a regular occurrence that assume murphy, in his evidence. he so said look, asian people get positions a prominence, but that sheila shut them up or is an essence of truth in that as well. absolutely . i mean, i've always said that the answer is not to,

to give ah marginalized people, be they black be they would, maybe they gave people positions of power and think that's going to change everything for the majority. doesn't we have to be rep to change the perception of the average back person? the average age is person, the average woman i was agent person. sorry. so ah, but from our perspective in football, we believe and you hear it all the time that black people believe that the, the answer is to give them more positions of prominence, where she's actually said that he knows a lot of saw the south asians who've been asked to, to, in the institutions to, to, to come on board and in many respects it is to shut them up. um, so that really isn't solution either or is it impossible for someone in these circumstances to, to speak. i mean, the assume if you remember the captain of culture a, the youngest captain of yours should, it should be said he was the captain, a yorkshire impulse simona accepted racist and violent for some they say, hey, listen, i'm not taking the send them. what is that, is that too much to ask anybody to do what it depends on who that person is?

because if you want to change it into the mental health issue and he can look at ben stokes, for example, who can take time out for mental health and see murphy can do that. and i'm of course, maybe a high profile football, but i can the average person take time out with the average person in the street be the agent black female. take time out and say i want support, i want to be heard. no, they can't say it's okay. for an elite person to be able to do that, but this is not the answer for the average person because they will not be supported. and what's the good from the men, the assuming the fakes evidence was moving as well as hobbling. and it was quite clear that even the ca harden politicians on the committee was affected by the people he was naming and shaming. left perspective with some of them, no doubt with bad people. but as he made the point, some of them of good people that didn't realize what that will do and is that possible in today's society, people don't realize what the window behaving in a racist man. absolutely. 100 percent. martin luther king said in 1963 that is the

shallow on the standing of racial bice by good people, which is the bigger problem than the told misunderstanding by bad people. and we assume because we wouldn't ratio be somebody sexually abuse a woman or beat up somebody who's gay. therefore when all races, 6 or homophobic in any way, we all discriminate until we accept it within ourselves to a certain degree. nothing will change. all we lose point the fingers want to get caught, like every balance, for example, or whoever else gets caught in football, there's pete the bears, and is liam neeson. and we assume that that's the solution to the problem. it's not we have to can ourselves because we are all culpable, the euros in unless done to your booth. when you said the uncomfortable truth about racism. what was the uncomfortable bit that you were driving at? don't come from the truth is that we are all racist to a certain extent. of course, if you're black and i'm going to erase it was on the black people, however, how would you feel about? and i wasn't being disingenuous, but i know that of course race is a big topic. so it's really, it's an intellectual book. it's about discrimination. so it's really the

uncomfortable truth about discrimination. and the fact is we all discriminate to a certain degree. and until we accept it within ourselves, nothing will change. and that's what the essence of the book is on. the uncomfortable truth is not as simple as a black and white situation because you do have look at it from the jamaican point of view. how do we feel about about trinidad ian's or nigeria to gannons or elite middle class jamaicans? as i am, i'm up towards black working class jamaicans, so there is discrimination that as well. so it's not about racism. it's really about discrimination. and most of us wouldn't misunderstand about member, many years ago when i was leading us scottish bed to get the commonwealth games against nigeria, i started off with the assumption that all of the, the black countries would be supporting nigeria until the canadians came up and said there's no way we're supporting chileya. so this is where it's very nuanced. and of course, you know, i'm an a group of people who are discriminated against. and hor forgot about a white working class people because you know they are discriminated against. and no one talks about them now ah, that is, that is a big issue because they are now not only being forgotten about but the,

the black community being told that the reason for their discontent are white working class people who are racist. now, white working class, people haven't got any influence or control over um, nice crime, education jobs, housing that black people are sometimes not being, not able to get, but they're being told that because of some racist fan or some hungarian fan working class people. the reason why we have racism in this, in this country, rather than systemic by so it's a, it's a very complicated subject. but as one of the arguments you put forward that have to put forward that luke is important. not just how many players like playoffs in arlington and football, but how many black manager, how many black faces in the boat jamal asian faces for you? you put stress on that, is that because you to lay thing it to power structures or? well, it's more to do with as, as murphy said, ah, in terms of who do you point the finger at it. so what happens is for how powerful black plays are taking the knee for inclusion and for,

and we talk about that. they say it's not just the black, last math is about all fault of discrimination. i never heard one person mentioned the fact that there are no asian pakistan, bangladesh, or indian footballers. that's not even on the agenda. and in terms of black managers, that's not normally a gender either. so it's very easy to point the finger at a family throws up on on the field or who abuses you on twitter. however, real is that real racism, as i like to call it, is of the majority of it. you can see it's, it's obvious the overt racism, the bananas and the and the twitter. but of course, when you look at the fact that there are 30 percent blackfoot bowlers and they are probably less than 2 percent black managers. as much as black managers aren't being racially abused, the fact is that they're not being given opportunities. so why don't we speak about that? and vast that for me is a bigger problem. but when you brought through in 1980 so, so 1st understanding player for, for what formed an england, i mean those only a handful of black players. and i guess because what that particular time there was a perception of a black plays ability, football as ability physically,

mentally playing in certain positions, positions of responsibility, goal keeping. whereas you have to be, you played on the wing, you have to be fast. you don't think too much that opening positions of responsibility, those mits are now dispelled, because you've got black goalkeepers. you've got black, gentle hobbs, and more importantly, and i don't mean this a lot of black people take this wrong way. when i say this, you have a lot of black footballers, we're making lots of money who aren't very good. now, we saw the english. you can have a black person who is curling as much money as a white person who is even as good as of some white place. and that for me shows that in terms of the playing, but from the playing perspective, from a physical perspective, there is no racism, a tall, racial bias toward black players. now, to be a manager, you have to be able to think. now, what is the perception of your capability to of the, of your ability to lead or woman's ability to lead a fortune $500.00 countries or gay person ability fighting a war. and this is what we have to dispel. so it must be got lots of black players . now the next step is management and that is where you have to have the perception of a black person, not a black footballer,

a black person's ability to think. thank you by your booth again. what? sure. a key audience for this book who you're trying to get this message across. i'm trying to get the message across to are the people who think they aren't biased . because everybody will agree with what i say possibly. but they won't think it's them. because we all know that people are sexes, people are biased, people are racist. people homophobic. i got off the train on at houston today, and i was walking to the taxi. i heard a conversation going on and i don't know what the conversation was about. but the foreman actually said to the man, i didn't see who they were, they were having this discussion, an argument about something. and he said, that's a very northern attitude to have. and of course, i know that he didn't meet it as a compliment. so what is the perception that he has of northerners and this is why the book told him, ask him if it was no other than jamaica. nolan wafa compete in jamaica to have a listen. but perspective on the people on the north coast. i'm from kingston and the grill, amounting about a north kolton in kingston. we have a view of them probably being inferior because we're from that. so therefore, the, the bias that we all have is based on

a perception around perception that we have based on, on ridiculous things like, for example, when i 1st came to england in 1976 youth dabbled in these irish jokes and irish people were thick and i thought i didn't think i'd be naughty irish people but and i was like telling i was jokes because patty don't think that's what i was told, which is, and of course i want to talk about scottish people when i went started playing football and we went to the bar and talk about scottish people not buying a drink, which obviously isn't true, but this is our perception stick. when you have people telling you things on true. let's take a hope for view this for the say, well, isn't this just a question of football becoming more cosmopolitan a as it becomes more cosmo bolt and it will by definition, become less racist. i mean, it is more difficult not impossible. of course, for fans to target a blight player, witness one or 2 black players running about in the opposing team. it does become a bit more difficult if you half the say this black and half the other side is what it really depends on how well those black players play, because we've seen offering the miss those penalties. when all of

a sudden we spoke about this new own inclusive england football because we're winning matches and of course as soon as like 3 of them is penalties. you can see what happens. so the solution isn't for you to have more black players, because what will happen is if they play well, we love them and if they don't play well, we'll abuse them. so the whole idea of most santa changing the perception of people towards muslims is not. it was a terrible clarion. and then if he leaves liverpool next the next year, he isn't gonna change. after that, he's not real. because of course we know sports is so emotive, that fans will love you if you give them success, no matter who you are. but if you don't get them success, that is where their preconceived ideas and they're on conscious bikes and terms of the way they've been conditioned. takes them back to then, what do i believe of this person? very much like if a female referee walked onto the field before with your capabilities, most men will think, i think a man would be better until they see that she's very good at the math. no good. then they may change, but the unconscious path that they have is that men are better than women of riffing football matches. think kimberly gave me love john. it would be anything

that you saw on a symbol, but she would say, yeah, we're finally getting some we're, we're finally making the break for audio her that is happening gradually, or are we still back in the dark ages or the canoes? highlight the issues and that's what football is always done from the champions league. 30 years ago when used to pass is radco down the line. it is highlighting the problem. taking in these, highlighting the problem. what is next? we have to be something tangible and sport can't do anything to change people's perceptions. if we live in originally by sexes, homophobic society until the tactics in society, it will exist in all walks of society. you can't take football or crickets out of that or the police for example, and then say we have to get rid of it in these industries or these institutions. we have to get rid of it in society 1st. because any football before your football fan before a policeman before your cricket or cricket fan, you are a member of society and you carry or sensibilities with you. you don't all of a sudden going to these industries or institutions and then become biased in any way. and that's what we have to talk to, we have to tackle society, but we're doing the all the way around at home to come back after the break less

exactly what we're going to be talking about racism. and why does society ah badges, financial survival guide. when customers go buy, you reduce the price, didn't help well, reduce the lower that's under cutting, but what's good for food market is not good for the global economy. ah ah

welcome back. alex's in conversation is one of the finest step. all those to grief in england, but there's much more to join, binds in educated john buns. you will say he can't separate racism and sport from racism wider society. but if that's the case, then i will look in the wrong direction or try to eliminate it and spoke when we should be trying to eliminate that through society. absolutely, absolutely the wrong way and not just in sport from an elite point of view. you have to look at and of course i said the intersection book in terms of sexism, homophobia, all kinds of discrimination. you have to look to, to get rid of it at the bottom. and they'll go up to the top rather, need all the way around. cuz the hundreds of years, we believe that getting more elite black people, women,

gay people into positions will then change everything down below. but it won't. we have to change the perception of the average person, the average gay person, the average woman. and then you'll have many more of them making it up to the top by their own volition rather than thinking we can pull them up. if more people get up to the top. so understand us that's to do with society. think about your own bigler, john buttons. be your father when you came thing with he was a military tasha the the to make him high commission. you went to a, a grammar school, so you don't come from an under privileged background rubin relative, certainly to most white people. you gave them a pretty privileged background. so also the way you were treated when will you better treated the grammar school? and you would have been at the local corporate house. absolutely. that's why i don't look at my experiences and look at either racism or, or blackness from my own point of view. because i, i, i, what i, i struggle with is i struggle to capitalize on certain aspects of blackness, while not enduring the everyday reality of the back of the black experience. that

average black people working class black people go through. because as you say, i came as a military attache son. my son was at st. hers with andrew possibles. ah, we lifted high gate. we lived in mayfair. my dad had a chauffeur. i went to a grammar school that had 17, i became a footballer. so having not gone through the everyday experience as much as living in london with my friends who are black, i saw what they went through and know what their families went through. so i understand races of an understand that, that the races we really have to change, not just for a black person because he's black because a black, a lead person may go through or experience racist incidents when a banana comes on the field of relax. and he can get an oscar, whereas black people do this every day, and that's what we have to challenge that everyday experience of the non elite black people, not to lead women, not a need gay people. and i don't go through that and people like me do not go through them. but you would have filled the norman tab cricket test if you remember, normal tablet, but a prominent to conserve to politicians who said that, you know, it's all white people being black as long as his foot english, cricketing, yeah,

it's for the west and it, i would have i would have fell to norman forbid cricket test, but i, i probably would have gone to university got a nice job and even a nice big house, but a can play cricket. whereas although the average black person fails enrollment, that with cricket, cricket test can get a house counselor job can get access a social care. and that's much more important than me not being able to play cricket or football if a feller cricket test, because i would still and why i think this way. because growing up in jamaica, which is an all black country, i saw the way working class black people were treated by middle upper class and elite black people. so it's not as simple is much more nuanced and a black and white situation. it's about elite ism about capitalism and it's about discrimination and vice generally. and famously, and the liverpool, darby, or even you casually almost said footie the banana off the field of a famous instant. do you have the assurance that these who failed the poise at least i would think and take a look for places. it was that because of your inner confidence in your and your

own self that you would able to do that or when you bought or you're just trying to get the ball. that is a very poignant picture. i do not remember doing that at all. but if it was 198-819-8788 i've been playing football, says 1981. and when i played, and it's not because it's west amwell miller anywhere else that was happening every single week. a banana came on the field now this because his birth, emerson versus liverpool in a high profile, matched with the best things in the country. it was highlighted, but that was happening every week, up and down the country. so while people looked at that and then all of a sudden there's an example of an end of eat situation whereby we're making a big deal of an elite situation whereby we had ignored that for years before when it's already been happening. and maybe it was appropriate and it was great that people have started to talk about it, but that was nothing new. and that is why i say i do not remember doing that at all because she said this is to happen so often. and the same thing, roughly half of mot walters in scotland, but it was only when a very high profile read and just play a banana for one of the all of a sudden it was realized that chris was more unusual. this is called because with

less black play. yes, but he wanted to take a stand house americans, calvin big, nothing would have been settled on. so somebody was tumbling, pointless to that because a focus of the attention of, well, it's a turning point in terms of highlighting the issues, which is fantastic and we're still doing it now highlighting the issue. taking the lea. we're not talking about why we're taking in the, we're not talking about a tangible difference that we can make after we've taken the need to say, what are we going to do next? it's just about whether we should take any or not. that's what the conversation is not why are actually taking the knee on what it's all about. so once again, these gestures are fantastic to highlight the issue, but they can do nothing to change. the issue of racism in birth on racial learning with a particular is it an imperial pass thing? is that something it's essentially a boatley empire on the boat visions and perceptions of, of black people as well. what does black people, you can look at the opium or in china, and you can look what happened in india and not about black. it is about imperialism. it is about empire. and of course, we have our winston church, 2nd with central chanel lead in the country. and of course,

is quite poignant that we talked about the cricket, the parliamentary involvement, and now the cricket. and the language that use in cricket. when we know the language that's used by our most important person in terms of what he considers women with burke us to look like. and i remember a headline ones are headline, a quote that he talked about on boys and tank tops. so the language that he uses is acceptable because when, unfortunately when you're in charge, you get to say what races and whatnot. but we're now talking about language that's acceptable in crickets on football. but the man who got the most power in the land had used language. that's unacceptable. no one questions that she think the cultural sport committee should call the prime minister. well, i'm a lot of this is hearsay not from the prime minister print terms of people say i didn't say that it didn't say that. i said this, i didn't say that. i think that we knows. we know that he actually said are just being completely ignored or he tended to write it down of course, and are particularly clever. what is not a problem?

is it because what, what is his come up and for writing it down, he became the prime minister. as i want to get something on the record, the in the us because you've caught a cape las come to you that the drink like me, you can play for any of the home. come, you can play for scotland, absolute. and if they come asking, he would have played once at the saint, and i tell you why not because i would have wanted to pay for scotland. because if we are all honest, then that's why the book is called them company truth, because it's about us being honest. now this is not nothing to we don't come to the truth about racism. but, and i don't wanna get anybody who place the scotland, who's a scottish ira out and who is an irish? well, to isn't welsh. however, if they have an opportunity and england asked them, they will play freeman 1st as much as people will say no. but a lot of them arm is normally they don't play for england because they haven't asked them. and then like when he jones wells comes to ask him when he's 28. he says yes, if it's not you to said yes, jason, micah turns on august. teammates of mine played for on and then there from liverpool arm. so it's normally europe by this, the so called, ah,

so called lesser countries for us. so england for us me 1st, at 18 years old england asked me to play, and i forgot to 21 and england and asked me to play in scotland, did absolutely go to pay for scotland. well, chatham was made almost the same point, justin, and in the last few weeks i was standing. i was standing and yet, and i who would have clay freeman. i mean, it probably not quite at least have speech said luke, i thought i could make a difference to, to the, to the scope when i say that, i think about the answer. you have to be honest, you know, because, and we know that's the reality because it's nothing worse than being disingenuous or trying to kid people that you've always wanted to play for scotland, your whole life type of thing. you know what i mean? so you'd rather just be honest about it and he gives 100 percent for scotland and i would have given hardships and for scotland. and i say that that in advance, you know, if i pay for scotland or wales, i wouldn't even 100 percent because that is who i identify with that that particular time. and i used to pierce as an example of this was the quintessential englishman, british bulldog spirits. he's got the, there's tattoo on there. 100 percent finger. yes,

69. england caps. if you had 68 in england captain a 69 cap. we don't know how happened to for france against england. he will give the 100 percent because his pride, his affiliation with his new team, meant that he would give a 100 percent. and that is where this whole idea about what it means to be british or english. and it needs more to us than anybody else could. i remember when bob rocky to say was, you know, should be more to us. why should it be more for england to be to nigeria than nigeria to be thing them because her english were more important and, you know, we love each other more than, than the nigerian. so the whole idea of nationalism really is not a, i'm not a big fan of. well, let me tell you, it made a very considerable dis, a difference to the scotland team of the think it is a 9th is with consonants on nicholas wood. when a good night out, it would have been if it does look good at in the field as well. i'm just interested in the, the book the since the, when you are on the way to be back from brazil with the montana state. and when you're triple passed the entire team and stood a one to go as a young player,

1984. and this national front support. so on the plane, because the legal team of that stage and traveled in a plan, struggled and stealing your attitude to that. tell me a bit more about that. i'm really interested. why didn't you go to supplement, get somebody else to footnote? well, once again, this was a regular occurrence of football. you know, this wasn't the 1st time routine, national front flags in the, in the stadiums. when we went to play in england and walking down the street, this was the, you know, it's a retrospectively looking back. people who don't understand time, what life would like back then are appalled and saying how, how could it be? and because we forget what it was like. but if you're old enough to remember at that time, the national funds were open on, on the streets. so therefore, it wasn't a, it wasn't anything unusual. it was a bit more neutral to see them on the plane with us. we were like, they were funded. but of course, at that particular time, this was just an accepted part and you know, you order those press men who are on the who are now still around. now by the way, who are now shouting from the high, from, from the heavens about racial discrimination. our target isn't it should be allowed

. no one said a word back then. now i've how they changed their perception now or did he just know how not got calvin to the extent you school, of the most memorable, in my opinion, in english history. the against got that is excellent, but that's why i believe that you go against brazil was the most memorable girl when linguist football history, but your score and whatnot. and they say or people like them say we're not coating that because it's one of our black. yeah. what i crossable for marketing is when the 2nd says probably a little draw. look, i think i can promise you that no scott and sports would ever have said, i know, of course, of course on, but i think about that is that, i mean, i cannot that ignorant people affect me in any way, shape or form. so that did not upset me at all because all of these people are ignorant for their, for why are they going to upset me? ah, with an issue that they have now know, other people think differently and if they feel disenfranchised, and they want to, you know, feel less than i completely empathize with them, but that could never happen to me. so what makes the for john biles when you've

made a considerable impact in your views and in this book, in particular, no uncontroversial. some people say it's not the way attitude, but many people support what you're saying, and it makes people think so. so what makes for, for john boswell keep doing what i'm doing? i'm, i'm trying to wider the conversation to, to the non elite people in the inner cities, the safe can have more support for them. not can they have a voice, rather than just the elite. so i'll continue to do that. and at the other room said of the field to play the, the i used to, to try to like politics as john barnes, natalie political aspirations whatsoever. none whatsoever because there's no political solution to the that to discrimination. no political solution whatsoever . john barnes, thank you so much for joining me in the alexandria. if al gore, with intent on telling the world to buy the inconvenience is there climate change? john binds is telling the uncomfortable facts about racism. the binds argument is that much of the anti racist rhetoric is superficial,

that we should be more concerned with racism and borton's than on the day. the thing was, contains at vs. m. is it deeply imbued in england, impede or past? and that extend to its people suffer from racist. abuse is determined by class and power. his dues are challenging for government and football authorities. the lake that does not make good. i know from alex myself and all the issue is good bye, stacy. and we hope to see you all again next week. ah ah ah,

we're empowering ourselves to be more efficient, quicker with our transactions. but with that comes a trade off every device b as a potential entry point for security attack. any machine can be it's an extension of traditional time. the defenders have always been one step behind the attackers with them as well becomes option lawson. it's not a matter of, if it happens, it's a matter of when there is no shortage of growing tensions in eastern europe, there is the growing e u barrier stand off over illegal migration. there are western reports. russia is amassing troops within its own borders, and of course, there is the self inflicted crisis of european energy supplies. it is no coincidence some recalling this hybrid war,

but whose hybrid war against whom the us food and drug administration fights a freedom of information request in court asking that it be given 55 years to fully release redacted documents relating to the approval of pfizer covered 19 vaccine, also this hour a us court slams. it's the doors shot to an american tv station after one of their freelance journalists was caught allegedly stalking a bus full of jurors in the kyle high profile. a case of cow rittenhouse. well, if they didn't want to cooperate with us, fine, they don't have to. it isn't something we want to. anyway. vladimir putin takes a swipe at the military activities of washington and nato in a fiery foreign policy speech.