ah, as tensions are again on the rise regarding ukraine, we hear about red lines, russian red lines. the west needs to take them seriously. also in the wake of the rittenhouse murder. isn't it time to admit blake, legacy media live all the time? about almost everything. i mean, ah, i'm action return. so you're watching going underground on the birthday of the father of spin american propaganda pioneer, edward benet's coming up with

a show running out of time to save humanity from extinction. we talked to the suicide squad thinker, peter capacity, the legendary environmentalist actor, whose role is malcolm tucker, personified tony blair's iraq war era spin and arguably war on the cods. again, nearly 30 years after nature destruction of socialist yugoslavia, we speak to the man who implemented the 995 new liberal date, an agreement that divided bosnians from serbs and croats as one of the poorest countries to one to join the you was via faces another hog with all this, a more coming up in today's going on the ground. but 1st, today's the birthday of edward monet's credited with creating modern public relations. critics of a more a strong to government here overseeing plans for new oil, gas and coal exploration. after cop 26 believe that spin is winning the war of information. and one actor who has experience playing spin doctors is pickup alvi, the environmentalist known for roles in the thick of it. linked via armando a, a new cheat of iep and succession has also played dr. who am the thinker in the

suicide squad? he joins me now from land. peter welcomed, we're going underground. i don't know whether it is something from the cynicism in some of the or the pieces you being in. obviously the thick of it comes to mind that amongst the comp $26.00, a great speeches that were heard, the coverage of the summit on the environment. there's a little a little known fact about an oil and gas feel being explored in shetland that you are concerned about. yeah, yes, i think cop 26, you know, and did many remarkable things. but amanda felt it was a bit of a discipline and a little bit of a p r opportunity for an awful lot of governments to say that they were doing the right thing. and i think it's a great danger the term just claiming to be on the side of i being aware of climate change is not the same as actually, you know,

creating general policy that makes a difference. so i think we have to be very careful to keep the pressure up and say, sorry peter, but we had a lot dba on who i think we both know is john gama, from decades ago, who is on the main climate group advising the government, who immediately said this is not an issue, the boards, johnson or the government to get involved in. we have democracy here. that's why a decision over coal in cumbria or the camber oil fields early. we should just wait and see what happens rather than oppose it as differently. and say, the government must do something now about shutting the at the very idea of fossil fuel exploration down amidst the possible climate calamity without presupposes a trusted government. witcher i'm afraid, doesn't really exist. and mamma them, i can't see how morris johnson can claim to be a climate change leader. ah, when he allows raw sewage to be important to the southern caesar and rivers to

which is, you know, he'll be very quick and am i, you know, i did watch in the loop for that. great for me here in the the day. and it seems a bit like that, but you know that there was a sudden you turn about me raw sewage. you know, the thing is, i, you know, i'm not a politician. i played martin tucker who was a very sharp and clever spin doctor who is very plastic, talking and fragrant things are gonna know who i am or i'm i decided to become vocal about this because i'm a parent and now a grandparent. i'm really concerned about what we are leaving behind for folks to look for. look for mon kent's government, do not seem to be taking this seriously enough. i mean, the candle oil field is you know, oil is that is one of the key things that we've got to stop using. so how come this

government be trusted? terms of its climate credentials when it is creating we're going to be flooded with more of the very thing that we have to avoid, you know, and what they're doing really is they are creating an environment where the u. k. is the best place for or producing corporations, the cancer. i mean, the tax laws, the in the economic environment here is very welcoming to all producing corporations. and they've said that themselves, you think it's the 1st time that there's mean a crisis or political crisis like this, where people are actually injuring their own children by their decision making normally would be about keeping elite where they want to be and giving their children rich and successful ways, this will obviously hurt their own children, the people making the decisions if they go the way that you fit. i don't,

i don't know. i mean, it reveals a sort of kryptonite lack of imagination or a credit plan adherence to the idea of profit. that's all, that's important. that's all, that's all that our government does is to so that, that money keeps floating. yeah. i mean, we've seen with the coven crisis, whoa, governments can respond to angle crisis in a very powerful m bowl and bold kind of way. and that's the way they have to respond to this. you know, it's not enough just to, to, to make their possible remote us happy or is it that leads feel the money aspect is more important just as with cove. it, as we know here in this country as regards contracts, the immediate reaction so, so the critics of the government here is they wanted to make money out of the coven

pandemic. similarly, the environmental aspect here is, let's make some money out of a carbon offsets carbon trading. this or i think it is all about money. ultimately, i think that is the most powerful force. and also, i can't help thinking that we are, you know, constantly being at to fight it. you know, this seems to be a constant process going all of us having us all squabble among each other, about other issue cultural walls, whatever it might be. when in fact, as this major crisis that needs to be addressed fully and should be placed at the center of government policy. ah, but i can't help thinking that you know, that the more people i can't to part, the more that this profiteering can go on. i want to say amazing thanks about the response to, to, to, to the climate crisis is that it has, it's happened because of people. i mean,

the only reason way here talking about the only reason that is, that is out there in the media is because ordinary people have just said, you know, this is a problem that has to be dealt with. and i don't speak, you know, as an activist or as a protest or an intra to and to speak as a regular parent, regular parent. but i'm sure maybe you didn't see the classic. so go mainstream media to have a package on this. i'm not sure about the chef, the one, but certainly the colon cumbria, they interviewed people obviously very hard hit by the city of london crash and the people on the margins of society. some of them being saying, or look, a oil gas, coal, we need those jobs and you know, it's more complicated than you and you think, and i know that you've been someone who rejecting the idea that actually jobs come out of your ideas about the environment. they're not, i think this is all, this is all part of and it's about what i'm saying about

a lack of imagination. you know, on the, on the side of government, of course, you, your fossil fuel workers are responsible for climate change, you know, then livelihoods, or a state, or a whole communities that are dependent upon fossil fuels for their existence. we have to be all encompassing. we have to figure out a way in which those communities and those people who make their livelihood from that business can be looked after. whether it's in and retraining or finding some kind of subsistence in some other kind of way. we've got to embrace this whole thing. i can't come up with ideas to do that. i don't know what to do, but we've got to stop to say it's either profit or climate. so much of the change in perception about the environment is come from the art, let alone scientists obviously are battling with, as we now know from a i don't know wiki leaks, papers that there's been a deliberate attempts to stop the public understanding about environmental threats

. well, why do you think, do you think you've one doing the, the artists and writers and scientists of one against that or other people spinning against her against the environment today? no, it's not, it's, it's, it's, it's not her a win or lose situation other than we're facing catastrophic climate. shasta, you know that that is the illusion that the battery of the wind is to, to make sure that we can maintain, you know, global warming at 1.5 center grant. the idea that is autistic people and people on the edge of society versus i kind of global elite or, or corporations. you know, the may be some truth in that ah, but it doesn't really help. you know, i don't see why you can't be, you know, at why you can't be part of

a corporation and also worry about your future. but we had, we had jonathan porridge on a previously and adviser to prince charles. and he said very clearly that when he was working, maybe even now realize is there was a lot of green green wash as, as, as we call it. i mean, is, i mean, mark rilen was on the show. he said shakespearian act. and he said that the he was leaving the r a c at that time because of the sponsorship by a fossil fuel companies. i mean, it, some people out there going to think specially some young people. and maybe maybe they, what you in the role is malcolm dug that it's impossible to beat the kinder spin that. com. 26 is a great success that the politicians know what they're doing and have confidence in them. and the campbell royal field. this is just a stop gap and later it can be decommission no and anything is possible. everything's possible. you know, all we have to do is to listen sensibly to the truth. decide what is right and

pursue it and also come together to do that. you know, it's, this is not a done deal. you know, we can, we can face this if we get together and pursue it, you know, actively and passionately. i mean, i'm not sure whether you saw about how power stations here and are using bio mass and what they say is the plan of the tree in the developing world. and this has been exposed, the tree will be a little saddling that there is to go later and how she was more sorry, i'm sure i'm sure there is an awful lot of spin like that, you know, and it takes, it takes a lot of effort to to, to friggin the all i want to please sit and find out what the truth is. i don't know how valuable that is. time spent doing that. i i think it's right to be suspicious. i think it's right to distrust corporations. i

think it's right to unfortunately i think it's right to distrust the government, which i feel really sad about saying, but i think that's where we are. and that's just, that's just the way it and we have to get together and move forward and continue this fight. i mean, other comments with call 20 says and this of media coverage of is as well, you know, das mass dealt with for the time period. so let's move on to another story and we'll come back to this next year. you know, it's an ongoing day to day. our fight that has to be waged. and i don't know whether, whether you can tell me this because you mean so many other things. i know you have the new album, suicide squad, your in famous re, internationally, all these different things. but if you were the advisor to boris johnson and you were trying to sell it to the country, this camber oil field. what your view is,

watch out for his words, to be suspicious of them. as the government obviously does try and sell us the option of more fossil fuel after $1226.00 every word. unfortunately, i don't sit up for comic effect. you know, there's people always ask me, you know, what would mom talk a feel about this? or would he respond to this? i would not waste my comedic jeans in trying to come up with a mouthful excuses. i just don't believe them anything that they say and that's a tragic place to be. it's not funny. i can't make it funny. i wish i could. well, i hope you come on later in the next time and talk was secret to soon, and war maybe with a well the thank you so much. so by after the break, the e. u. guaranteeing peace in europe since 945. think

a game. 30 years after the war. the destroy yugoslavia. we investigate you and me to intervention of the warnings of another war in the balkans. all of them all coming up about to have going on the ground with all those driven by trainers shaped banks centers and those with there's things we dare to ask in a welcome back. nearly half of young people in bosnia. i think he of

emigrating according to the un, could it be because war is on the cards for the balkans. nearly 3 decades after the neo liberal us broke a dayton agreement, it split up bosnian serbs and the crowds of bosnia. joining me now from vienna, as ambassador wolfgang petrocelli for my representative of bosnia and herzegovina, who after nature bombardment implemented dayton, ambassador, thank so much for coming on, you know, circle mainstream media. doesn't talk about countries that nato bomb the years afterwards. i don't know libya and we just had remembered sunday the other day and i don't think many people understand. oh, well, will one started in bosnia. why are the crow at some subs, some of them threatening to boycott, bosnian elections next year, which would have to go into the history of a ticket across and the serbs were both on the side of the big themes and the perpetrators. and this kind of situation was replaced, so to speak,

in the walls of the 1990 as wow. and it's still very much a part of the gene, so to speak very much, deeply engrained in the collective memory of the people there. this, in my opinion, has not been fully appreciated. also not fully appreciate that when in 1995 and the american leadership of the war, which was actually a civil war with a war of aggression was stopped in the so called aiden or courts. yeah, the dayton accords of course have come to be seen as highly controversial. some even maintaining the all war was planned by people like richard holbrook, to privatize and destroy state and enterprises in the former yugoslavia. looking back on the agreement that you implemented,

what do you make up of dayton economically and geopolitically and what it's done to the region? well, 1st of all, data was basically to stop the war. i do not believe there were a lot of economic interests on the part of the west involved in all of this. it was really more of this kind of unipolar moment in the broader global history. and the so called victory over the soviet union. by the way, studied americans, which kind of also created a certain hebrews, which means that the west thought that it could somehow construct it piece by basically splitting up with in boss now has a got enough with ethnic communities. i what i see is basically too much emphasis was put on that ethnic aspect. clearly in my didn't national, mighty ethnic country. it is important to appreciate that ethnic part. but unless

there is a governance around which kind of, you know, which, which kind of out of balance is said, the ethnic component doesn't work. and the dayton accords, and this is my basic criticism, criticism is actually to stop the war on the end is circumstances not to provide a blueprint or a peaceful, a future of bosnia and herzegovina. i'll get to those ethnic rivalries, osama j, i the identity politics of the 2nd. but you just said dayton not much about the economics. well, some people would say classes at the forefront to create tensions between different identities. after all, i mean you were implementing it. you knew the dating under richard holbrooke, the person who some people blame for this. reber needs a massacre, some might say, and you know that some people say that you don't believe that your implementation

of data and the destruction of the health services and so on, contributed to what is now one of the poorest countries in europe. no, i had my own a very personal experience also with richard holbrooke, who of course had a big ego, but basically was not really interested in any fine tuning off the situation there at the time. the united states was in such a position of dictating or convincing her every other partner in the west, as well as in russia. just remember that the situation with russia was such because russia, russia was in dire straits than basically russia somehow played a long in or this, it was, it was the russian foreign minister ivanov, at a time, was involved also in the, in the dayton accords. but who simply did not really have a big a word in all of this as did the europeans. let's get to that because as you say

back then, i mean to have life expectancy falling after world banker, happenings in, in russia, killed millions, arguably in the regiment. here in britain, a foreign minister was asked recently behind all this, the current tensions lies. russia, unless we do something very dramatic. this was the question us in parliament of a foreign minister said the hand of russia is a play is pu, tim, behind what is going on right now the troubles in bosnia, of course booting has a very important role to play in world politics. also in the balkans to our traditional ties between the orthodox ward in the balkans and moscow. but on the other hand, i mean just let's face it in the economic side, more than 70 percent of the interaction, economic business or trade interaction between the balkans and the european union is taking place. so there is only a small rest,

let left for moscow or of course, also china, which is the new, the new kid on in the town. that's something which is which we need to factor in is a much more mighty polar won't now. and so therefore, a new policy really needs to take place. i personally believe that a relatively small problem, like in bosnia or i'm not convinced that war is imminent. on the contrary, i think people are fed up with the conflict. i think they're russia as well as china and the west europe in particular, should step in and step up to it and say, okay, let's try and resolve this in order to bid and li, big confidence between russia and, and europe. in particular. i will say it's the europeans who are a place there and they should become more active. be on the one hand more by

remaining principles, the principle, but it goes to for the basic values that we believe in. but on the other hand, b pragmatic and tried to approach a moscow in order to try and find a compromise in, in the balkans, in bosnia, in particular, except that as you know, the basis keep it increasing on russia's borders. the warships are written in the united states. he's getting of an era that china and bosnia as far as we know, expresses the desire to join the european union. do you think they should? i mean, the, as you said, chinese investment china, the super power the century should be joining the shanghai cooperation organization instead of the european union. well, i don't, i don't think so. i think geography is really that matters in this case and i think the russians realize it realizes that this can never be a part that bargains can ever be part of the russian spheres,

so to speak. it is simply part and parcel of europe and my, in my opinion, what really needs to be done is to try and see the long, the picture in a short run of drama, high drama and catastrophe looming economically and above all. as you said in your introduction, demographically, this is the biggest problem. people are basically being boss and i had to covina in before the war. and even after the war, when i was there, there were about 4000000 bosnians from all 3 ethnic communities. now dia, down to 2600000 level because of the serbs have lost dramatically from 1200000 280-0000. so this is actually the problem that the host boston is for frantic with, but also europe. i think good some people in the global south listen to this will think, hang on a minute though. i mean, we can see cold war tension on the better is poland border. but why should there be

any trust with nations in the united states given their involvement in bombing causing refugees? that migration, as we know from libby iraq, afghanistan, syria, the list, the list goes on at all. how can they be any honest brokers in this region? and as we know historically, as we started with, this is the powder keg that kicked off. well, one clearly and the european union is in a, it's in dire straits. in many ways. it's an identity crisis. so to speak, who are we to europeans, what we want to. busy deliver from our nation states to the super national level of european union. what is actually what i actually the borders of europe? i think this is what i should even say, historic conflict between russia and, and the rest of europe. so that is actually the question which need to be clarified

and this you need to be need to be done in the intellectual way. of course the story ends and all of that, but also primarily politicians. and there, i think, to come down to the level of talking with each other, exchanging what is my national interest speaking as mr. pulled in, or russia. and what is the national so called national interest of europe? and i think a compromise is possible. whereas the barton's is one park, i think the real dividing line goes through ukraine. so therefore, i think to start out in bosnia and to find a solution to give in a little bit from all sides, will be a very important 1st step in elite new car confidence. ok, well just finally then, and as you say, china, the big investor that iran, a big investor there now as well. let alone russian investment. why are there 600

european union troops in bosnia, what, what are they doing? we haven't even had a chance to talk about the continuing legacy of the shrubbery, nature issue and whether the united states and britain have an involvement it, or whether it was the subs. all of that stuff will have to talk another time about why have the 600 troops in bozeman? well, i think it is that the security issues very high up on the agenda for the people. they do not trust so much. their own politicians, that's the big problem. so therefore they didn't, your appearance have stepped in european union and like the united states is not a power institution or a power, so to speak. you know, the europeans, european unit is driven by bringing in the rule of law and human rights and all the stuff. and this i believe is important when, when do you for is daily 6 and the troops?

of course, these are almost next negligible. i think the more important part is natal nato has now basically circle it is now in circling of bosnia and herzegovina to member states for from, from a of us. and now monte ranch on, i think this is the more important power factor there. and also, of course, as you see it as a factor of security. so i think in, instead of focusing so much on nato and on this kind of military solution, both capitals, moscow and brussels would be well advised to look for non military compromise and solutions. ambassador, thank you, and that's after the show will be back on wednesday 26. he has to the day a cia map of a date and divided yugoslavia was placed at the u. s. library of congress until

then he would touch wireless social media and let us know if you think nature would risk. another war in europe. oh, join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world of politics, sport, business. i'm show business, i'll see you then. mm. ah. just as tensions are again on the rise regarding ukraine, we hear about red lines, russian red lines. the west needs to take them seriously also in the weight of the rittenhouse burden. isn't it time to admit blake, legacy media live all the time? about almost everything. i saw

a message from an unknown account that had a selfie with my pulse board as its profile picture. i saw pictures of my documents . it was they also sent a credit contract or if i had just 3 days comply with their demands. if i didn't send money, i late set up an online hate campaign. i was supposed to be very dangerous man. ah, a full scale violence stand off of a new covey restrictions across europe. for the dutch p. m, dismisses protest as now is dissatisfied with britons health service. the in a chest said reco breaking point with the record waiting list,

waiting list. as the government watchdog finds it was ill prepared for the pandemic and fail.