working life and his adopted country of scotland by team of messages. and this once i shall last 6 weeks in england football, a joint one and his colleagues in the source for racism in society. luis hawk says, economic and class inequality, as he point site, is as much the problem as racism. but not something that likes of media will ever want to address. what nicole says good going you, john barnes, racism is purely ignored. it's in my book. we've all been involved in one way or another bullying. sure. again, the alex salmon team. gord mckenzie says mr. bonds, his most eloquent passionate but measured. i thought people can episodes. and finally duncan mccourt, he said he's right. you can have a colonial history. was tight racism, whether he's moved on is a key issue. i'm chris, as an ice sport or anywhere else, you have to kick rest this out to sport. and that's not happening. stand, scotland, where it asks mcduff in shakespeare's macbeth clearly not, is he in fact,

cancer in dudley edwards music which charts, high scottish nationality has refused to be absorbed into a greater british project. and for the last generation, i find as meter just in cultural institutional expression, but in the form of direct political challenges. today he talks to alex about scotland, past present, and where this is all taking us to in the future that the edwards thank you so much for joining me in this special ed unders day edition. alex, it is a wonderful honor for me to be on the show with you. you have been one of the greatest men of our time as far as i'm concerned. where is she keep talking late like this interview? don't go very well at the door and down the spook nations and nationalism which i've read because you were kind enough to, to ask me to, to do the prefix which i was proud to do it as a book about all 4 nations, say ill,

scotland, england wales and ireland that you know, the, all the, the nations of these islands would that, that be correct. yes, certainly. and also of course, it's looking at faro influences on them from the old and new testaments from homer. and what people picked up from him, from virgil and from shakespeare and james, the sick from 1st. all of them, people making some vital contribution, but not telling the whole story by any means. but what about lay elephant in the room on the elephant in the bed? we might say, quoting pierre trudeau, a english nationalism, or on british nationalism. what's the, the genesis of that will. and 1st, that is concerned. we don't understand nationalism unless we realize that everybody is nationalist. and so a great deal of the story of nationalism in these islands has been various

different forms of nationalism, of the different countries. english nationalism began patsy by being a victim of the periphery is a rating parties from scotland, weiland as well as from the european continent, breaking up the prison that existed at the time of the fall of the roman empire and been in the later stage. it's more a strength from england. i'm moving in in different ways and in different respect on the peripheral countries, whales, ireland, and scotland, the only one of the 3 which wasn't conquered by england. but of course, all these nations borrow from each other and english nationalism as, for example, you could find it in various from the place or texture. you can't say shakes or believe this, but he commits, all of his characters, appear to believe it. and the irish welsh, the scots borrowed from what they could get from shakespeare and from various of

the writers and the english like it or not this ever so. but shakespeare's assessing sample isn't it because he sadly plays during the reign of elizabeth the fust a was very much at exemplifying and an heralding an english nationalism plucky england a withstanding the spanish, her mother. but his later plays after the ascension of james, the 6th, and fust, a, we're very much trying to cooperate with the, the new king in purchasing a british nationalism. would that. 2 be a an accurate description. yes, i think the name of condemns is some 1st having become king of england in 163 after having been a cradle, came from 156667. james desperately wanted to make the english and the scots. what nation young with the united parliament, the scots might have been ready to take it?

the english weren't and so dames, desperately trying to make the english think that a union of parliament, as well as a union of crowns and body themselves, would make great britain. and in fact, he was the 1st to declare himself, king of great britain. and he did the clear it with else the year after he came king in $1600.00 for the year after his accession. now, shakespeare, as far as i can see, becomes indulgent. one of the 1st thing james did was to declare that the counter, the chamberlain's company would take spirit his fellow actors. laden was now to become the king's company. and for fear wanted to have a scottish play and he needed desperately scottish advice. and games. i think had a major part to do with it in all sorts of ways. the play is very well informed

about scotland, but also the play teach up again. old mythologies show the plain macbeth. actually, this is itself on very unfair things about the king macbeth who ruled for 17 years and apparently was a very good king from 10421057. but he became the monster. oh, fell through ambition and treachery in shakespeare's play. and that play ends with the english coming in to rescue the scots from cruel. because from that point of view, i deal from james a point of view from public. i thought you were going to follow the very best theatrical tradition and not mentioned that the name of the scottish play. but as your thesis would that lead once that there was a, a conscious effort by james the, the sexton foster. certainly the best read, a monarch can christendom, and arguably the greatest playwright in history, william shakespeare, to create

a british identity a you argue that was a conscious effort by them walk in cahoots to create that british identity the, any much they weren't, they were working together to get this idea of wanting britain 6 to start using the word, britain and british, much more than he ever had. and the story of make best of all still shows things like um, a benevolent figure of an english king doesn't come on stage, but i'm an english single month. iraq like teams that are the confessor, but the same time the course. james was also doing other things to consolidate. and one of them being his insistence on the creation of the great bible, the king james bible drawing in a whole series of theologians, translators, to produce a book, which would be everybody. so he wants to dominate religion. he wants to dominate literature, culture, philosophy. and of course,

one of the other manascale projects of james the fust. it was the union jack, originally a naval flag. quit he organized a design competition fall then became the union flag adopted awful union with ireland obviously. so he was interested in symbolism in jesse some parallels between the activities of james, the foster william shakespeare, and we'll let say bought us johnson and b, b, c. well, there are some that in a marketable figures in the b, b. c. been nice to that, their arm being more and more pressure to conform to a much cruder kind of nationalism. both johnson himself and some little learning i gather in classics, which he studied at the university. but he wears what learning he has, as you might say, very likely he produced one of the worst books on winston churchill,

which has ever come out. and apparently when regular stores. moultrie imagining him as being like churchill. he doesn't know scotland and seems almost to run away from having to see too much of it. in this way is, is a bit unlike his predecessor, david cameron's on the night of the referendum in a 2014 as to whether it's got to be independent or not. david cameron made much about the fact that his small, some was reading talk and underpants. now that's not true, entirely profound and tried from scotland, but it was at least some sort of token reference. and so would cameron's assumptions about his own remotes got his histories. that's not present in johnson's case and to a certain extent, johnson is rather like a schoolboy people think cons, public school, boise story, learn off a little bit of a lesson, but not very much of it, and hope he can get by with it. so if a project that the great british project, let's call it that has been gone for 400 years,

i've been what's happened and we have a scottish nationalism politically researching that we are violent, probably closer to unification than that. it's been for some 100 years and more and will say at least into a language and literally sansa. it will nationalism is still very, very evident. indeed. so why didn't the great british project to 400 years ago work wilson, a variety of reasons and one of the most obvious ones was class that the english were conscious of being the more severe than more superior civilization, technologically is much more advanced. but also of course, i am very much anxious to seize good land in ireland, which they did the long parliament at the time of the civil wars being one of the ears, it was done. cromwell confiscated a lot of ireland for his veterans and so forth. scotland being independent until

james himself became the king of 163. but after a certain length of time, the scottish nobles and great landowners, anglo find themselves, became much wanting. so class was all over the place and absence and crafts became the means by which the different nationalities, protesting against what was happening to them, came to identify themselves. since these were the losers in that arrangement. so on that level. so you are king, that the sense of scottish identity a what was kept alive by the working classes of scotland perhaps lightly 1820, a rising and 18. 20, marked as an island, the. the great land, a claims and campaigns of a whole variety of the towering figures of irish nationalism and will through the fall, through the maintenance and through the, the exemplified asa of socialism like khaki, harvey, and,

and others. is that your argument that that the sense of identity it was kept alive in the working classes, whereas the, the upper classes would have been quite happy to, to fling the lawton with the, the great british share project. well, you have to think really about the working classes response being what was heard from them. and that's fair. in scotland, for instance, robert burns learning so much from his fellow workers, small farmers and so forth. um and giving their culture immortality. so many of burns a songs, the ones the collection as well as the ones which he created. burns gave as it were, scottish nationalism and identity in song. before we're started looking at careful theory or anything like that. even stranger walter scott, who was a tory and politics, certainly right wing. but on the other hand, he did so much to learn as much as he possibly could of the dying culture of the

lower classes and immortalized them. he became the father of social history across the world to parkman. the thing out, looking at people, instead of merely looking at a successful barons or successful technology, whatever. and in wales, of course, one of the effects of welch would be to make the welsh a more democratic people to think much more in ordinary terms. because of course, to know the language which was in danger became a great matter of nationalism itself. english was important and so many of the welsh actually did terribly well in english, but the preservation of welch became absolutely key. and that cultural identity stands to them in the way they are far more successful in progress, preserving their different nationalism, been ireland or, and they're different national languages than ireland,

scotland. and when we come back in a few minutes, little it precisely the contrasting paths of irish and scottish nationalism and perhaps take out your field into having a we look at the future instead of the history ah, to push this way. so the double membranes structures which are like sax, which capture, pushes the cytoplasm and then deliver them to water, the incinerator of the cell, the license for degradation. so that's what we'll talk to g m l, look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except where such orders at conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we

should be very careful about artificial intelligence. and the point obviously is to great trust, rather than fear i would like to take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, real summoning with a robot must protect its own existence with welcome back. as the scottish nation approaches its national day, alex interview custodian. when dudley edwards, by his new book and faithful nations and nationalism, there was a dilution yourself. happily settled, lived, scotland for last half century, also the different paths of irish and scottish nationalism. what was the

essence of that explanation? well, the one of them is the because company wasn't a conquered country, and it had to be more obviously recognized as at least in theory, playing a part a partnership in the rule of these islands. this comes out pretty obviously when after 1745, when on it and charlie made his attempt, which made came closer perhaps to success than many people to realize. but after that, not true, the highlanders who had followed him were savagely treated at the time. and there was a great deal of lun confiscation, but we soon, 10 years, they were recruiting the highlanders to fight in the 7 years war. now because catholicism, the men, religion,

an item was the preservation of support for the stuarts there. and because the catholics originally owned the land, which have been so recently confiscated, that meant the catholic church kept out of the u. k. army or the british army. and it meant that in a sense, there was a sense of degradation of not being allowed to use on not right. so in the 19th century, great political leaders emerged under the act of union because the owners parliament, which would been catholics in it anyway. because that was 180601 in dot u k. parliamentary westminster, great irish signals arose cou essence taught democracy to the british, and used parliament as a whims for getting concessions. and, of course, spoke their ideas of nationalism. but daniel o'connell, the great peters, completely against violence, did what he could to prevent people even dreaming about it from times past and so

forth. and again, in the latter part of the century when the tremendously effective party, dominant, led by chance to a panel dominating towing out to english governments and british governments in succession to one another in a 25 and a 6. and then creation of discipline, showing what could be got from constitutional. he was meant that constitutional nationalism could teach the extension of democracy to the english, to the scots, to the welsh. and they made a great achievement there. and yet, the trying to, to remain that in the 20th century. well, the scotch and the welsh very sensibly kept the national reasons non violent. and it became absolutely root and branch for the scottish national party when it came into being. but our nationalism would never be a nationalism of violence. but in ireland, the tragedy was, but because of world war one which drenched the word and violence, a protest movement emerged. parkins online, so germany in 1916, and of

a very small insurrection was started, which was put down brutally my stupid english general who have been left in charge on mexico. and the result was, was the interaction is very unpopular and i can fix it. but when the leaders were massacred without trials before them are just court martials, under the military or somebody and nothing told until they're already dead. and this led to a great anger emerging. so to, to the fact that the rising was put down by dublin, it's so spin, bombarded and flattened. so dublin became one of the capitals which leon ruins after the 1st world war. and that actually, i think played quite an important part and certainly a people say, no, they didn't want to have anything more to do with the country which had destroyed the principal city. i do and argue that was that the same at the moment that the

the solvency by which the east arising was put down a crated divide. she, i'm interested because in the 1918 election, sudden shin fan wanna landslide victory across island. but the shouldn't fin landslide and parliamentary seats for westminster wasn't as grey as the s m p landslide in scotland and in 2015 and the deep the, the subsequent the elections were there. somebody's had a majority at westminster seat. i'm interested in this. why? in 1918 that a majority of seats were sion fain advanced with his out in a free state and an independent republic. it was in scotland, a majority of seats at westminster hasn't resulted in any substantial constitutional progress at all over these last 6 years. now, the success of nationalism depends to print from extent on the stupidity of rich

opponent. and as far as the future is concerned, well, you might say, well, the union was so shown a great deal of stupidity and a great refusal to come to terms of the realities of the national of scotland. the rich, quite likely that they will make more and greater mistakes in the future, which are likely to conclude much support from you. again, it's gotten credit, i will take you out of your field. i own that, that once i, even, you're a historian grip, substantial american, a historian, the great, a literally figured these islands. but let's look at the future. but let's look at the crystal ball unless paint little the celtic countries and todd le let. let's take your native country of ireland. are we closer to either shoot a taylor at any point in the last 100 years or of the still ceiling differences said to be overcome across the island over much closer?

because i mean one of the things which is a guarantee of some improvement in is human relations, changing. in fact, in the late 820th century, because the irish in dublin have specifically renounced an insistence that the 6 counties are there's therefore they're winning many more friends and much more respect in the north, which they did. so the way in which, in fact, the present time, the famous protocol which is causing so much bad feeling between the u. k and the e u. when that's been handled, the protocol about trade in northern ireland and its trade relations with the larger island that was agreed to creation by bar of johnson. and he is now in this month of november,

making whatever effort he can to trying to deny it. so the notion of northern hadn't been kicked around in this way. naturally in it, i would say that there's not perhaps a great deal of love for the republic, but there is much more suspicion of london and with it to see the sense of which has all been true of the scott nationalist as well. london really is not capable of managing northern ireland any more. yes, that part of it had to survive this dreadful, 30 years civil war and northern of itself. but at the present time, the peaceful time, largely the very fact, the northern item itself is being used as a political football means that with lynn as well, the scottish nation must the proof of english incompetence. that is actually much more valuable than shall we say, a nationalist street which kept on talking about grievances and how badly people

are treated. the simple statement that the union is no longer fit for purpose. that seems to be the case. as far as britain is concerned and is getting more and more like it as far as northerner does concern, where the unity of ireland would be farther away would be if more attempts are made to bring it about by violence. naturally, that would put northern ireland more and more on the defensive. keep it closer and closer to the interesting you can't. and the republicans want to have anything to do with violence. they've learned too much, or augusta must make it well to have started off with it. so oddly have us, unless sometime this day, what's going to happen in scotland? electrically dominant, but in some ways, politically become them in that electro success seems to come from nothing of modest johnson of westminster. i'm not going to concede another test of the

independence question. what's going to happen in scotland of the present time? we have the most effective leader as a leader, 1st minister in the shape of nicholas sturgeon. but she is as far as i can see in the politics of infirm equanimity. that there is a consensus that could seem really to mean that nationalism has been put not into a deep freezer, but theresa into a cooler. and the next phase would be likely to be the absolute necessity for nationalism to assert itself. that's knowledge about what's gotten means what's got and is the of course, the relationship with the european union is over felling importance here. the fact that scotland is denied it's police in europe for which it voted with it. therefore, the less that scottish nationalism simply appears to want to show that it's

adult grown up and to really just as grown up as they are in london. the more sense of no, we differ in culture. we differ and politically tend. we differ above all in the fact that we want an egalitarian society. and that is keeping us farther from the english consensus, which is so much based upon class, a danger to any society which really knows its identity comes from equality. and that's what scotland is. and that is, but scotland and it's all additions, should constantly remember, equality should be, i think, the yardstick. i went to a future progressive scottish naturalism as measured or that we had was author historian as a student of celtic and nationalism strike these islands. thank you. so much for

joining me on this and how does the it's a great honor and an election. thank you very much. indeed. when mcduff asks his famous question in shakespeare's macbeth about the state of scotland, the answer comes from ross. alas, poor country almost have failed to know it fail. as wonderfully edward reveals the great play that was fully engaged in applying with his role picture and the newly crowned king james to 40 new british identity. i took the desperate nations of these islands. 400 years later, we can conclude that this master plan was a failure. since scottish identity is alive and kicking, and now expressing yourself directly and politically. however, all is not plain simply here to independence. this m p may be elect the dominant. they're also politically becomes, with no apparent strategy for implementing their successive electro mandates to

deliver for the people. any opportunity to vote themselves for independence. as a historian, the past is only edwards specialist subjects. however, understanding the path is often the key to unlocking the future. and pronounced like myself and all at the shoe in skid by, stacy, i'm hope to see you all again. next. ah ah ah

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