and taken a taxi's extremely pricey, i think, said the woman, the other day she had to pay a 1000 roubles to get to work. this is a very high price for presiding, a pretty heavy received a job. your shell? yes. and vaccinated. we do usually give a lift to the same people or no each time there is a different person who's i feel sad for them. some drivers say they're able to take the elderly to hospital and sometimes there are people who can't take that came to the hospital because they have no cure code from every one left without a q r code are hard line anti faxes. some have medical conditions preventing them from getting vaccinated. some have received only the 1st jav of the to required and are still waiting for the due date of their next shot. others, though, have more inventive reasons. yes, there thought philip, i think this should be a universal coven vaccine for the whole world. but it doesn't matter what it's called. the idea is our bill. it's charles to washington or new york with his vaccine and the corresponding q. r. code. good. now if i get vaccinated here,

cousin, i will receive a q r cuz it's only valid in russia and i will be able to go abroad with it. if the w h o registers this brittany, be jap, would you agree to get it? sure why? why not, is the certificate i guess is valid world wide. i usually go to work on public transport, but on monday i left home and couldn't go anywhere. i had to take a taxi and the prices were really high. my car wasn't really being used, so i decided if there are people struggling, why not help someone who really needs it? but not every one is excited about the idea of this makeshift anti vax taxi service . here with picture all these anti vaccination groups only make things worse than you. it is sad that we still have covet for it to it. these are people who have nothing else to do other than to join in the groups. yet i'm guessing a job is a personal choice. so googling but unsafe acts, groups are just wrong with god. local authorities have already loosened the lockdown. clamps a bit. people with an official medical discharge of those in between jobs will be eligible for a q r code. a change to the rule said introduced initially. when the realize why seen

a decrease in the passenger traffic on public transport on monday, traffic knows die by as much as 30 percent on tuesday, we had a 5 percent decrease about russia's president, vladimir putin has been repeatedly stressing that vaccination must remain voluntary . but at the cost of a very unpopular measure, local authorities here have attempted to make it economically crippling to keep a vax in free lifestyle. i'm a guest on of reporting for ot see. yeah, thanks for joining us to run out international. your program returns in 28 minutes . ah ah, ah ah . hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm

peter lavelle. the you is in the process of finalizing what is being called the strategic compass for security and defense. this is shorthand for what may become an e u army. this is not a new idea, and there is no guarantee it will ever come about. is europe capable of defending itself in this competitive world? ah, cross sucking european security. i'm joined by my guess, michael maloof in washington. he is a former pentagon senior security policy analyst in london. we have andre walker. he has a political commentator in commerce and in edinburgh. we cross to john white, he is a writer and political commentator. i generally cross hoc rolls in effect. that means he can jump at any time you want. and i always appreciate, let me go to michael 1st in washington. let me quote, the high commissioner performed as a birdie affairs and joseph burrell. quote,

europe cannot afford to be a bystander in a world order that is mainly shaped by others. why is he saying this now? that's been the case since 1945. i mean that he'd suddenly haven't epiphany, go ahead and d c. yeah, i think that what went berella seeing is the reality of the, of the lack of us leadership and nato on the one hand. and so, and you have, and you have my crawl from of france who's also pushing for a and e, you army seeing the same thing because they can no longer trust us leadership. but frankly, they don't need us leadership in order to defend themselves if they so choose, even under the umbrella of nato. and the fact that they want to do this is, is, is, is crazy because they can't even afford to, to, to meet their own natal commitments at this time. so in most cases, some, some are, but for the most part they're not. and that's not where their head is and,

and i just don't see who the enemy will be. well, be recent. i don't know if you have this amazing ability to read my questions before i ask them, okay, let me, let me got in london. i mean, michael brings up the really good point here. i mean a, be the idea having a european army is not new. we can go all the way back to the gall. he talked about these things here. but the fundamental problem is, is, who is the enemy? what are the threats and can 27 countries of this block define what a threat or even a friend is, go ahead in london? well, i don't know whether you start question deliberately to lead me to, to, to a particular point of view. but let me tell you the concern here is that going to embed their own enemy in order to create themselves as a nation state. european union is desperate to be a country rich, desperate job, and so it's desperate 5 o'clock and it's desperate to destroy individual democracy

. and of course, a common security policy requires a common threat. and what we've seen go on in bella roofs on the border with poland . i think it's an incredibly dangerous collection lectures remind while you as well this taken place. germany invited everybody from north africa to come and move to germany. when does not cause to migrate crises, it cause problems in multiple countries. whether that be grace or greg, but in the case of bella roofs, we have now shut nato troops to the the border. i'm blamed ballerina. i'm the date, russia for potential cause i. i 3rd world war, i think when you militarize europe in this way, there's an incredibly dangerous outcome that comes about. and i've always said that the european union is much more similar to you because lobby that ac united states of america. i'm job a week on the stable on democratic international body like european union,

with its own military force, and they determination to be belligerent. now look, i'm going to say there's just, you know, i don't agree with the russian government. i don't like vladimir putin, but i have to say it takes 2 to tango. i don't think we've seen in georgia and ukraine. the danger of your foreign all is a tremendous strike such as this place now and in poland to ballers, i think is incredibly digest. okay, let's go to john. an admiral i'm. well, since russia has been brought up, i mean, in the current draft of this, you know, the strategic compass for europe document, russia is not even mentioned, which is really quite interesting. i mean, what i draw from that is, is that the morale know is that if he throws russia into the mix of, we mixed reactions to how to perceive russia as a threat or a friend or something in between here. i mean, this is the whole reason why we're doing this program because it's so muddled here

and maybe andre's right. i mean, they just need to invent a threat. but then you very doubtful. you'll get a consensus of what that threaten means. go ahead. john and edinburgh. well, russia is not mentioned in the operational gade written by mr. but our but it isn't felt and is implicit. and i said the elephant in the room. you asked who the enemy is peter. and then there was a very router guy on the market of fear requires a steady supply of monsters, an elite when the lack legitimacy at home, the need to fashion a stella enemy to try and fashion social cohesion. and we're seeing this with the e richest, who's legitimacy is hanging on a knife edge right now. and the operational gave written by mr. but our really does bear with him because it is a chilling document. and let me quote from it directly without going to question the principle of unanimity. it is creatively by activate in certain professions such as constructive abstention or article $44.00, which allows for the creation of coalitions approved by the european council. what does that mean?

that means that this is our policies charter. so any coalition of state or member states, but then you can take it upon themselves or try to more deploy without any democratic oversight with the approval or 27 member states as a chilling document. indeed, i don't know why i'm even married. i thought he was reading my notes. okay. i was just, i did say that, but i are there. you want to jump in there before we go down, michael, go ahead. i absolutely did want to bump in the i'm the reason, as we all remember what happened in the 193940, but actually you're coming together becoming bill trista has gone back further. you can look at them. probably all it was i genuinely thing i used to work at the bottom and the european union is interested in creating legitimacy. just as i think john just said, very interesting crates and legitimacy. and part of that is creating the paraphernalia of a state. i'm not part of finale in o b shelf to be incredibly dangerous and incredibly difficult. i think that when you talk about who is the enemy, my fear race, asa european union city,

said because i'm a jewel 6 with the republic of ireland as european union 6. and my concern is the enemies don't debate. people all problem great. people that are not happy with being invaded by migrants. michael, if somebody located and doing some research for this here, there are, there are countries within the european within the block that are more afraid of fellow members in the block than they are in the united states. and this disinterested attitude, i mean, if that isn't really as a sad prognosis of how to move forward here. and this whole issue of article 44 a, b, e u treaty. yeah, this sounds like a number of countries within the european union can gang up on another member. i mean, this is not what i think burrell was trying to envision, or maybe yes, i don't know. go ahead, michael. well, i think that that's the, that's part of the, that's the crux of the problem. as i mentioned earlier, is it is, are they going to react to

a turkey grease confrontation who know who makes the decisions by under, under nato you have to have unanimous consent this document that you read, read out it. there's no such thing. it's just, it's a countries to the willing that might want to join in. i'm saying up somewhere like it, like in libya, like we saw, i don't know, which, which i thought was the beginning of the end of nato. and frankly, i think that that's going to be the problem in the future. nato even does defining its its own mission for the future. you want defense indifference. yeah. in defense of certain states coming together, let's remind ourselves something about the european union. your opinion, consistently size that is prevented war in europe. what a load of rubbish. there's been a war. new crime has been a war in georgia. there's been the collapse. i'll be sloppy and always remember when picture the america, we're talking about intervening in bosnia,

the european union remained solid in the states. it was, it was no action to be taken when the largest genocide, 2nd world war was taking place. and then when puts in came in to defend the cost of and i guess the aggression of serbia, specifically slot down the last page. the european union was opposed. right. and so when you were talking about good faith actors in the world, you've got to remember the european union as a solid track record of the solar state. when it comes to international diplomacy, i saw a track record of winding up your appeal conflict. admittedly, along with vladimir putin as well, i've actually track records of opposing people intervening to prevent genocide. you know, do you want these guys to be the key decision maker on the safety and security in your i would say no. okay, well the talk about decision makers, john, i mean, who ultimately defines what a threat is and who's ultimately defines go in taking action against the threat. i mean, who are these people and elected bureaucrats go ahead?

john will induce the computer cache oversee, they're both stopped in their support of emmanuel macaroni in particular and also the anglo american who she's no longer an office. these are the train movers of this initiative and always have been but we have to understand and we had mentioned the invasion of utah by magnets, the real enemy of the peoples of europe, for when private jets don't travel and things are caused submitted to the eating or the english channel is western foreign policy. this is possible for the magnet crisis. and this document just illustrates that this foreign policy is going to continue. no lessons will be learned from libya. no lessons of been learned from afghan is done. and this is redolent over european union that is no longer fit for purpose as if it ever worked. and it does like totally for them. that new tool is seen as a us us project european project. but i was told i

didn't go further than that. i would go further than that my aunt human chase with this i think actually when you were talking about the disastrous intervention in libya, when you're talking about the disastrous intervention, the rock isn't the stone to make things worse, not better because at least nato was interested in channel, sorry, european security. what does this is about your pin flip, your flexing, it's muscle. it wants to be a superpower. that doesn't bother me. particular. but the fact that the weight it will, the weight will generate its reputation as a superpower. if intervene militarily its neighbors or not could make what has been a disastrous period for foreign policy. even worse, when we have to wonder, you know, if there is a problem, many european union country are that those people of that country get wealth in a welcome german troops without their se, i mean, that's a very big question. history matters here. all right, gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break. and after about short break, we'll continue our discussion on european security. stay with our team.

the ah ah. and people is still seeing the cars right on police report. if you have in december 2020, a group of anti finishes, sell out a film crew access for 3 months. so if people are organization, if an idea that is a must be opposed to channel out the gate while they may come with their faces. but

they can say what they believe in, we believe in helping our community. we believe that fascism is one of the major threats to united states has gotten proven. this is a chance to see who and t for really are in order for me to extract my 1st amendment right and say that my life matter have to be on to the teachers that are all american. we can't trust the police, we can't trust the government. we can't trust anyone except ourselves to protect ourselves with. welcome back to cross stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing european security ah okay, let's go back to michael in washington. michael, i mean, we can go back decades in any time. there's a talk of a european army separate from nato. washington ends up throwing cold water on it in

a disappears. okay, i mean, what was it? a few you into 2007, that europe was talking about battle groups. that sounds quite threatening their battle groups, but nothing ever came of it. and it was a lot of pressure from, from washington to let it go here. what, what, what is different now? and as you've pointed out, i mean, if the nato countries don't want to pay their quote unquote, fair share, why do they want to spend money on $5000.00 troops and nobody know who's going to be training them and who's going to be commanding them? go ahead, michael. well, that's just the problem. where will the central command reside? who will be the, who will, what will be that structure so that she don't have countries going, going, going their own way and acting, acting crazy. but i remember that ultimately they need a, some kind of ultimate leadership, which they all tend to look to the united states for, which is a bizarre, under the native structure. and i remember back during the bosnia days,

all those countries were trying, trying to figure out what to do. they were getting involved, but it only took the united states to finally come in and bomb bomb the crap out of them. and then, and then what happened was that it became an american war as a consequence. and the whole nato concept just evaporated. and so i think that this is, this is what we've got to be very, very concerned about is of, at countries just going their own way and going, getting out of control. and, but i mean for themselves what the enemy might be when in fact, it may not be and we've, it's, you need something where there is consensus and where there is a final decision making process. go ahead and jump in. you may, you may that you made a point about call things. i think it's incredibly important. and people misunderstood somebody making a member of nato. what respects incredibly change?

and the reason i make that point is because the, the 2 percent commitment to point 5 percent commitment is not actually about you giving money to nato. if you spend the locally look to know what the royal y'all's will be counted as nato spending, whatever you spend on your military, you're okay with. and i think, but the kind of id us on spending case, but they still won't pay the 2.5 percent of g d pay. but what they'll do is they'll put their forces under the control all the european army. and so in theory, it shouldn't actually cost any extra, particularly to individual member states, wouldn't put the cost. you don't ask yourself, well, i'm going to 2nd, if you fail to pay your, your commitment tonight. how serious saw you about security? and i actually think that they all serious but the people, the all serious are the people in brussels. and i think that they are serious because they're interested once again in flexing their own muscle. and i'm not just

saying when you have all the hangover from before, from the collapse of the soviet union, 30 percent of lot bins are not citizens of lot b as a result b. and i think russians, i just think they feels like a dangerous situation. and i think, but now it's with america and all the mistakes of having america involved actually makes a great deal more sense than having these guys using their own benefits if you allow . yeah. but it's ok. but andre, on the other side here. and why should the entire european continent defer to the united states in the united states? that really doesn't take nato very seriously at all. ok, it's more of a fig leaf than anything else. i mean, look, the nato countries couldn't even defend the a couple airport if they had wanted to hide the whole collective hub, all of the european armies. they couldn't do it. okay. so it's a fig leaf. my name is john, let me give you a scenario. you'll be going to jot in edinburgh, i mean, i lived in poland for 10 years. i did my graduate work at eastern european and

russian studies. i know the reach and very, very well, and i know it's history very well. so under this article, $44.00 of coalitions of the willing so lot be as sonia and lithuanian, poland can say we're going to, we have, i knew it were the threat and the entire block has to, because of ukraine would say that, ok, so they the small countries smaller population, they can go be by vigilant and bring the entire european union into a potential hot war, over the ukraine, over barrows, against russia. this is insanity. go ahead, john. no, as the saying goes, peter, beware of small states and these countries in eastern europe have failed to go over that issues arising from the 2nd world war views of either soviet union, visa v, collaboration and large part with the nazis edge from those countries. and they still see russia as a soviet union, which is 2, they are very, very great discredit. and on a more present level, if i me, i cannot myself foresee any circumstance in which any rate think in german belgian

dutch, a tau in a french soldier, be willing to give their lives for the e. u. i cannot, i cannot foresee any circumstance in which any of the soldiers would be inspired to go into battle in the back of a speech by you commissioner, reseller van der lane. i cannot foresee any circumstance which enables soldiers we want to russia, held to save the integrity of the e. u. flag in this really does get to the heart of the matter. because as already mentioned, the you has all the appliances overstate without the substance because it hasn't, there is no emotional attachment to the you or that is a little i, i think i think that that's wrong. i understand the sentiment behind it, but i'm still going to say it's wrong simply because that is not the way that a soldier operates. in reality, when your national leadership was deployed as a soldier, even if you don't believe in dying for the game, you're likely to go anyway. i think there's one thing mocking the while what you've

said, sounds to me like some implications might be some design. it's like, i just don't think that's realistic because let me just finish, let me just finish. the biggest danger is that these people who know that they shouldn't be fighting will do it anyway. and i think that's really digest john. you want to react to that because i tend to agree with john here. i mean, if their national sovereignty is not being threatened, it's very, very, very unlikely. people will say they're going to fight for something all the way across the condon. but they don't see it's a threat themselves. go ahead and continue. john. there's a difference between killing in the line of duty and be different between willing to die and elaine of duty. and that must be made clear. i maintain that no german french, belgian, italian, or french soldier will be willing, in the heart to go the extra mile to die and sacrifice their lives in the cause of the e. u. because what is that cause is not cause of the peoples of europe. it is a union of the leads, have europe, the soldiers understand that more than most. okay,

go back to michael and in washington here. i mean, it seems to me, given the resources that you have the rich block, i mean, it's very popular. it's very competitive in the world in almost every single way. i mean, why shouldn't the top priority be illegal immigration trafficking, terrorism prevention? i mean, a lot of these things here are much more, you know, they'd touch people on an everyday basis. here. the berella has these delusions of grandeur. ok, and he doesn't have the building blocks for and no one's asked anybody in the repeat union if they want to pay for it. go ahead, michael. well, this, this is the, this is the issue. what would be the target they need to define their target from within? as you point out, immigration, maybe countries can come together and work together to try and, and deal with this problem. right now, if nato countries are tending to do that, just that. but on a humanitarian basis, but when you do, how do you define what

a threat is going to be? now i can understand countries coming together for humanitarian purposes. but when you want to, and you may need to bring in armies to guard guard the borders and, and from cor doors for people to move through in the event of, of migrations from another part of our, of a war zone elsewhere in the world. and that's going to continue to happen. but it, this document on the, on the compas is just continues to be clearly undefined as to what its purpose is and, and, and it, it assumes that there's going to be some kind of armed attack. now, when you get into the more humanitarian areas that then will these countries come together, let's say, give humanitarian assistance in africa, for example, where they, well they, well, there's always upside of outside of the

e u realm. we saw that we've only had one instance where nato reacted outside that was in the africana stan, and that is the only time nato has ever come together to react that way. and because of the on the united states, got grad john, and i just don't think of the reasons john, go ahead, jump in. i just made the point, the devote humanitarian does not appear once and mr. bell document, but what does appear as the following passage, which i think is very regulatory and it, and it's, it's the, the, the relationship between this new petite defense force. i need to say this commitment to need to, should not prevent us from developing our own capabilities. and conducting independent operations in our neighborhood and beyond and beyond. this is an peters project by any of them in the course. of course, we'll be able to point to point to make about that. as we say here in the united kingdom is to say to ourselves on the 2nd, given that we have seen

a manual backlog threats and richer shipping, and threats and british troll as an attempt to blockade. just a should we are united kingdom are being left, your opinion be concerned about what is a mine, a fishing dispute, escalating into the aforementioned people from germany, from sweden, belgium being forced out to attack the royal navy. i genuinely think what you have such a poor decision making process, such a lack of democracy. i think something stupid like bar could escalate charge of control. and i think as a say, i mentioned bella, room salia, you know, something like that could to oblige of control in the hands of what is effective like an electric dictate shipping, brussels. you know, michael, i'm going to finish off with you. i have a feeling that the folks at the pentagon are just having a really good laugh. reading this document, watching all of the peasants squabble, you know, and then they'll get on their knees and they get a beg for our help. you know,

that's exactly what's going to happen right now. it's really very shameful because the europeans should have their own voice in the world. and in serve as an example, okay. trying to emulate nato in the united states is the worst thing they possibly can do. finish up for us, my friend. go ahead. washington. yeah, yeah, i think i think that having worked at the pentagon i had at once i began to read this document. i thought, well what's, what's the point, what's the purpose? it's so i'm to find it. so generalized and it would creates more problems and it will solve as we have when it out this morning in our discussion. and i think that that these are issues which need to be addressed right. for now, there are no responses and an adequate answers to, to, to deal with these problems that we've raised. and i think that that's why the, the, the natal structure will continue in it. and that's why you're actually seeing nato going all out to try to read it online. or. yeah, well, that's

a different kettle of fish there. okay, that's all the time we have gentlemen. many thanks. so my guess and watch it in london and in edinburgh. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at ortiz, see you next time and remember, cross softballs. ah, ah. i saw a message from an unknown account as it had to sell through with my passport as its profile picture. i saw pictures of my documents. it was they also sent a credit contract if i had just 3 days in a comply with their demands to see if i didn't send money, they sent up an online hate campaign. i was supposed to be very dangerous man. i ah

ah, one rescuer was found alive. he's one of our medics. we're saving people right there . a small miracle off to reflect tragedy. a one rescuer is found alive and a siberian coal mine off to being presumed dead. a criminal negligence probe has now been opened as a thursday's explosion, which has claimed 51 life, riots and gulf. the capital of sudan as demonstrate, has denounced some military coup and demand, the return of the civilian government. our correspondent and without gasdio is in the midst of the action the crowd, these she's got thousands. we had seen many small columns warming in various enabled before converging here. also in the program american families by me i traditional thanksgiving turkey, you get a bit of a price shock.