ah, ah ah mm mm mm hello and welcome to wells fargo. and all kind of gary an adage says that you can put everything under one hat, meaning that the same rules can be applied to everyone or everything. and again, this is exactly what would have his sign out to want to join the european union in 2004, quickly becoming europe's favorites. prodigal son accused over the years of all possible sins against democracy. how does the orb and government feel about its

place? and future in the european family. well, to discuss that i'm now joined by hon. grace, minister of foreign affairs and trade. there is here though, it sounds great to see you again. thank you very much for the time. now you heard me referring to that folk wisdom about not putting everything under one hat, but i know that there is another saying in the hungarian language is kind of been advised about stretching. only as far as your blanket goes and i think the hungarian blankets, so to say goes pretty far these days, your freakin guests and russia. you have a solid relationship with china and many other countries. but it says that in the european union, your home, your family, your country is still treated a little bit like on foreign terrible. why do you think that is a little bit? you know, there's a big debate in the european union now. how the you should look like in the future . and i think the, the find that the does this debate is out there should be considered as natural

because the european union has been confronted with many challenges basically simultaneously. so obviously on their car circumstances, it's natural to debate, to have a debate which way to go forward. and there are 2 basic approaches in this regard. one approach would like to create something like a united states of europe. so a pretty federal istic type of approach there the representatives are which would lie to basically overcome the national identity, christian heritage, and the more the most possible competence to should be both brussels that does their position. then there's another approach, the representatives or which are not minority, i have to admit which is kind of a sewer and stick type approach type of approach, which says that, yes, we do want a strong who are in the union. but we do believe that a strong european union can only be based on strong member saying, you know, in preparation of this interview, it was interesting to me to watch some of your earlier interviews from 2015, 2016,

dealing with the migration crisis and many of the western journalists, the particular british german journalists, called the hungry for not being more welcoming of the migraines. and compare it with the coverage of the current migration crisis on the bell or russian polish border where the level of indignation, moral integration is far for. 8 a little word, how does it look like from a past that you know, this shifting level of righteousness when it comes to migration issue, luca, i have the luxury to be in this position for more than 7 years now. so i clearly remember who said what 56 years ago, and there are only 3 for ministers in the you in the same situation that we were there back in 2015. and i remember the way we were really, really. 3 attacked and we were considering very, very hostile way, and those who treated us in a very rude way. they are now giving, basically a standing ovation to those who act similarly as we acted back in 2015. so our

position remains unchanged, that the external borders of the european union must be protected. and it is a part of your super anything that you kind of make a decision whom you allow to. and 3rd, a 3rd story of your country. and it is your silver and right to make a decision with whom you are ready to live together and to me, to not minister you said that your position remains and change, but i think it's also clear that the european position on the issue of migration has shifted, it's no longer based on the policy of what you called explicit invitation. you know, the other day i watched an interview on deutsch rally with one of the architects of gentleman architects of the deal migration deal with turkey. and he was, you know, openly calling for moving those migrants from the polish border into ukraine, not into germany, but in to ukraine. so obviously even the joins are no longer in the rush of accepting those people. what do you think has changed in europe on that issue over

the last 5 years? you know, i think there's a big hypocrisy. we listen to some, some comments which you have also quoted as if, as if western european countries have changed their position regarding migration. but when it comes to supporting pro migration and deals when it comes to the vest symbol came root. when it comes to making incredibly responsible statements regarding the situation in afghanistan, when it comes to, when it comes to the mediterranean, there might be some comments which, which sound to be different compared to what has been says since 2015 by the essence. by the essence of the european migration policy remained unchanged. unfortunately. and if you look at the document or the statement or the founding document of the, of the new german government coalition, you will see that it's extremely pro migration extremely well. speaking about

germany because german chancellor, i'm going miracle, was the main driving force behind the 2015 policy as well as the main architect of the multicultural policy within the year. she's expected to step down pretty soon, and i know it's hard to tell, but i think every responsible policy maker will try to intuit the future. how do you think her leaving will affect both the internal and external dialogue happening in and around the european union? it's interesting because you have to keep, you have to consider this want baggage with the upcoming french provincial election . and after the next presidential election in france, you will have a new set up of leaders of the 2 strongest countries in the, in the european union. of course, germany is our number one trading part number one, investment partners. so for us, a pragmatic and neutrally respect based relationship is important when the germany,

unfortunately recently, especially the german left thing parties and the german media was attacking goes basically on a, on a continuous basis. for example, the relationship with russia, although expression or seem to is a, basically a common or a joint german, the russian expression or as i visited the county colo go today. i've seen the big billboards of, of, of those companies which are present in color. and i seen they're older because german, french, italian spanish, more than happy working in russia. and so either way that leads me to another question, do you think there is any connection between the you port and see it's ability to solve practical issues? and it's proclivity to, you know, call other countries names or use variable, or ideological invectives. i think they did. do those things affect one another. i

mean, they, they call you names, they call last names, but they still do business without that affect anything in practical terms. yeah, it's enormous hypocrisy because what happens is that the big country's biggest strong countries can afford themselves to say and act differently. small countries kind of unfortunate wanted to treat him vocal, but that's why you know, there's more, but we say what we do, what, and we cannot afford to say, and that could differently because of the western europeans. do they act and speak differently in a, in the meaning that the day they criticize russia always, but they make the biggest businesses review or they criticize china. they shoot his eyes off for cooperating with you in china. and then they make enormous deals and businesses with the chinese that's, that's how that's how i meant it doesn't hurt or does it benefit? what they're trying to do though, is it took a lot and they tell you why you have to take into consideration reality. and if you look at the reality shows that the china has increased,

its sharing global g d p from 4 percent to 18 percent within 20 years. us basically, even from $31.00 to $3225.00 us traded more we china last year than together all the with all the u. member states, european union members, they traded more of a china then the united states. so we have to take into consideration reality not to speak about the fact that the biggest free trade area in the world has been established in the east again and 70 percent of all investments globally have been financed by eastern capital last year and only 40 percent by western capital, so these kind of hypocritical approach, which is unfortunately represented by the european union, many times hurts the european interest. and we as an integrated part of the european union, our interests are being hurt. and as you mentioned, the united states, and as far as i know hungry didn't get an invitation to the upcoming summit of democracy. something by an administration is so eager to host. and in fact,

hungry is the only e. remember to be sort of left out and one of the 2 naval numbers does. it hurts. i mean, you know, we are a country with a one falls and year long statement one, the falls in the are long christian statewood. our history is full of fights for freedom, liberty, and to or anything. and we don't need any external actor or factor to judge our, the state of our democracy. we are not, you know, students in the 4th grade in the high school to, to be prepared for you can. but when it's unfair, it's unfair. it's easy. if you're not a human being, it should. yeah. but i mean, you know, once again, we don't need to judge, we don't need to judge, we are absolutely aware of our situation. we are proud of our democracy proud of our fights during our history for, for freedom. we are proud of the last 1000 years and we don't need anybody to but

kind of certified and you know, okay, let me rephrase my question because your government has a pretty warm relationship with the trump administration, which as far as descent, wasn't renewed to the full extent by the with the, by the team. and i think it was job wide and who on the campaign trail compared to your government to at, to tally cherry in the region. now both you and i started political times in the university and we know that to tele, terrorism is actually well defined scientifically defined system with certain characteristics which whatever you think of hungry on their, if they're still losing their definition off to tell tara newsom how well they understand democracy, nor does their political label, not as a rhetorical tool, but as a system of governance. i don't think that they care too much about the reality . know about the reality in our countries. unfortunately, you know, what they say about us has nothing to do with reality. they. they

represent a totally different ideological approach than we do. i even remember because i was there before 2016 during the former democrat administration de criticized us a lot for having a new constitution in hungary for having a constitution on christian basis. i criticizing god for putting national interest too much forward. so i mean, we think about the role in these terms totally differently. and i don't say it's a problem because i mean, we are different, we can think differently. my only problem in this regard is that there is no mutual respect because respect the decision of the american citizens, the respect the way they want to go forward in the future respect whom they elected as a president. but this kind of respect is not being shown to hungary. there are many lies, faith news, and insults out there about hungary,

about the prime minister himself, who personally fought for for freedom. you know, well, minister, let's take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few 2nd. stay tuned. for me . i choose the ah, ah, mm. mm. welcome back to wells, appoint with hungary minister of foreign affairs and trade. here c r t o minister. before the break, we were talking about these efforts to make hungry feel excluded from polite

society. but i've noticed over the last couple of months, the budapest has become a sort of a meeting place for. 9 europe as a whole, and i trust a whole because when my russian and let's say british french one to meet somewhere in europe in this era of course, in inconveniences. but if that happens to be that sweet spot where geography regulation come together in a convenient manner, is that a coincidence or are you indeed trying to raise the profile of your capital as a regulated and yet easily accessible crossroads between east and west? we are a central european country, so we have always been in between west and east, and we try to utilize this position very saying that our purpose, of course, because and this, this can be tracked in our foreign policy also that the foreign policy strategy that we always wanted east and west to have a pragmatic relationship,

a continuous dialogue with each other. why? because our history has thought us that whenever there was conflict between east and west central european countries among them, hungary, we have always lost. and we don't want to be losers. anymore, so when we argue in favor of dialogue, prime with the place and she's mutual respect and trust, whatever, it's not because we would despise all of these or that. i mean this is stupid. it's not empty rhetoric continue or indifferent. it's our national interest. very, very simply and very few are not to not to speak about the fact that, you know, we were very successful among the nation. and since we were successful in vaccination, especially at the beginning of the campaign, we could ease the regulations, the restrictive regulations in hungary. we could get rid of the restrictions. basically, that's how we made the best and the country open for visitors travelers. when we made a lot of agreements and via through agreements with other countries, you know, to, including refreshing, that i will have to ask you about. there is an agreement on the actual recognition

of vaccination certificates between our 2 countries. as far as i understand, they can guarantee also have a pretty wide choice of vaccine. say you yourself got the good news, the vaccine of all others. and why do you think your european neighbors are not following suit? do you think there is a political rational there? and if so, what is actually being gained from, you know, the whole europe, recognizing that the, you know, we are in this fight together. so, you know, i really don't find the verse to describe how i feel about the fact that there are few, many countries considering the issues of vaccination as if it had a political or, or ideological nature. you know, it's about the lives of the people. and we knew the lives of the people. what is it for them 5 years politic, whether a political and ideological debate,

what do you think they're gaining from that? i don't know why they're losing the lives of people. really, they're losing business. i can't imagine. i can't imagine, and i'm very frustrated about that, to be honest. and i tell you why europe on the regulation speaks very clearly about how way vaccine can be approved on the 33 of the 2 ways. first, by the european madison agency, which is a normal, let's say, business of usual way of approving a vacuum, but the european or some other national european regulations says that in case of the state of emergency, this one, the national regulators are allowed to approve of actions also on a temporary basis. so before we started to use both scrutiny casino far from china, the national regulator of ours has approved the use of both. which means that the use of scrutiny in hungary is being based on a european regulation. ok. and whenever i saw to western european colleagues on my

investor and you can colleagues of mine between for i, they always tell me that they know that the russian fire fick performance can be spoken about calling very highly. and they are one of the most effective vaccine and the, and they are pretty sure that's why they tell me that's what they are. pretty sure this is working well, and i said it 1st the best of course it works well. hungary and experts has proved that and regardless of the fact that privately, they all say that when it goes to public, the echo to the difference, doesn't it? if you look at it from another perspective, from the perspective of your national interest doesn't, doesn't give you an advantage. the longer they wave, the more you can gain, not only from your central position in europe, but also from i know that you have plans of actually producing your own territories . so you're actually gaining from the lack of action on the part of europe and

neighborhood. actually begin to last, especially at the beginning because, you know, at the beginning, i mean like 1st part of this year, the deliveries from, from western producers were quite sometimes late. they were cancelled even sometimes, totally. or the volume was less compared to what was contracted, and then those times, the fact that the boast uniform and we delivered on time to us additional volumes compared to others. that gave us a huge advantage. we could reopen the country and the national economy around 2 months earlier than the european average. now, with this, by summary, our economy has reached the performance or level of performance of pre panoramic. although the whole, the global economy reached up only, but the end of next year, so it's one and a half years of, of advantage. so obviously it brought a lot of a lot of, i don't know to speak about the fact that during the 1st half of this year because of the restrictive regulations, 30000000 euros was a loss of national economy on

a daily basis. so if you could just bring, you know, the warranty or then the better for you. i mean, you know, so i don't understand to be, i don't know. now can i ask your personal question? and it is really a personal question. since you are preferred put nichole b, i think it's a actions that i approved for you 6. so why did you do that? c and whenever you meet with your, let's say indian or chinese colleagues, do they ever poke this choice of putting expensive let's say co show no, of course they never do. i have a very good contact with mr. long. yours for the for mr. china, you never mention this issue, but why i'm sure it's a good role from your ment today was made aware that you made that even though you know i'm not mobile to him but, but mr month was always a very good friend personally also and and mister rush as well, so we have rewarded all 3 of them because the free of them played a very important role in signing the contract and in delivering, according to the,

according to the contract. you know, actually my, my decision, the reason for my decision was crystal clear that when i was a kid, i was vaccinated by rack scenes produced in the rush that i'm sorry, a union life. i find my father. why should i change? why should that change? so that, that was the very simple reason of my decision. well, i'm sure the russian officials would be very happy to hear that. now, contrary to initial expectations that looked like covered 19 is here to stay and perhaps it will exert a much bigger. tell him society even then initially expected and i think to some extent that pulled all of us in wars and backwards to understand that death is here . we are all more told. and what matters in this life are concrete. the rather than abstract things, family, your kids, your house, your neighborhood, your country, be social fabric that you're integrated into. and you know, the,

those are the things that how many people pull through these very difficult experience. and those happen to be the values. if your government championed and was criticized for for many years, do you feel vindicated by, by depend damage to some extent? look, i for the panoramic would have one positive impact. and that would have been the understanding by the countries of the road about the very strong interdependence we are living in. and i hoped for a conflict to be left behind. and i hope for countries understanding that we need to cooperate in such issues like saving the lives of the people. but unfortunately, i have to be disappointed because this is, this is not the case. no common joint actions on the scientific side on the vaccine side have, have taken place. although i have to tell you that i had some hope last year when

the, when we were lining up in china to buy a masks, ventilators, gloves, protective shoots for the, for the doctors. with all those countries of the west work at the sizing china before like hell and i for that. okay. that might change their position. they might think the same, but at least, you know, relationship will be more balanced or more recently made. but unfortunately, unfortunate didn't happen. now let me switch gears quickly because we only have a few minutes left. so as long as you've been a minister, you've stressed national security interest as a basis of your policy. and i wonder if your definition of what constitutes hungry, national security interest has changed over the last couple of years. because you mentioned that, you know, there was a lot of preaching about unity and joint action and call the 1900 demonstrated that the, you know, when push comes to shove, everybody puts their own business 1st. yeah. hasn't changed the way you think the world works. actually, when it comes to our national security interest,

i think that the pandemic has shown it very clearly. that if you as a country regardless of size location, whatever, if you, as a country are not in disposal of strategic capacities, capabilities, assets, then you become extremely defenceless. which means that you need to have capacities, which under piece will circumstances seem to be totally selfless, especially from financial perspective. but when it comes to crisis, those are decisive from the perspective of even saving life. we have established our own capacities of, of, of manufacturing, ventilators, gloves, protective suits, madison back, think we are working on the construction is going on regarding the, the vaccine factory. we bought the cargo airplanes and all this kind of assets and capacities have been created. now, a few months ago, hungry with the true,

it's contingent from ghana some following the abrupt american visceral. and i know that despite your firm stance and migration you do, you did take pains to evacuate all the guns more than 500 that africans, i think that land supports he a mission. i wonder though, if this prolong participation in those prolong nato lab missions is still within the definition of your national security interest as being members of nato. of course, we always take part in, in combination. that's another question. i mean, this is, i mean for there it is. what nato is really about. the decision to leave has been made very quickly. i have to tell you. and if you are honest to ourselves, and i think we should, that this 20 years of international emission ended up being a failure, obviously because we made plans, you know, how to contribute financially to maintaining the funding. national security depos forces to 2024. so even we hung areas have made pledges from our national budget

$5000.00 for ear up to 2014. and then a couple days after, or even couple days before we left, that's going to sound the whole thing has collapsed. right? that's, that's what happens. so i am fortunate double the failure we have, you are still committed to participating and there is missions going forward. there's no member mission enough going to start anymore. but that's what i thought . and i had a question on my part because you know their attention on the russian western or you border and there are various active force projection going on between russia and western europe. all right, russia and nita and when, if rather, rather than when, but if those sanctions are wrapped in a fully blown culture, do you think hungry will still be able to sit on the fence as you are very successfully doing right now? or will be circumstances force you to take side or to make a decision whether to fight against the russians or not. what number was we are

members of nato. and the bring some commitments and obligations which had never be tried all your criticism off. of course, 2nd, but 2nd and you cannot isolate all the russian how when they did, what did i say that you cannot isolate, to think of a 2nd, that we will do our best. always to avoid that to prevent any such a conflict within nato and the russia. because once again, we are living here in central europe. we know how it feels when there is a severe conflict between russia, soviet union and the west. small country like hungary, a small but power passionate and free country has the capacity of influencing. i do think i do think that no one and it's my thinking ok, i do think that there is no one at least having a complete mind even in, in the western part of europe who would want such

a conflict to be crated. so i think that everybody in the west now this would this aaron will do his or her best to avoid such a conflict. i'm pretty sure about that while hopefully you're right. i also hope. well anyway, it's been a great pleasure talking to you. thank you very much for your time. thank you everyone. and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week. all the part with. mm ah. in

short, don't seem an official, mr. but you're someone at the school to check up with some dinner. walsh, the discussion and walk you through the phone yet. think you supposed to do this? i was asked to put your thumb given your beside bexla me at the whipping and they should. she usually should almost failed. so what i'm going to look up in did is it took the test initially, right? yes, the key moment sich, shes leeway and she shared with

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