jerome and just remind us about why he turned to communism. i think many people will have seen books if they know about philby, about him being a traitor, and it's full of victory all against the people that died because he was as by the soviets. i don't think i've ever read in a british book about phil b. he had a social conscience loads, his parents boss, close friends, been corrupted out of them by money had seen other social democratic left vacillated, shrank of failure to confront fascism and the moderation of principles. of his youth with the selling out just as the labor party had done. the ramsey mcdonnell left. i do know some people i say the kissed armor left austerity affairs of yeah, yeah. there was, there was, britain went through a most of your, it went through a terrible time in the late twenty's early thirty's. and he was horrified that the labor party which was the convention regarded by then as the conventional way of opposing capitalism july. and he was horrified,

that is the level of what he sold out in effect. he went into a national coalition, a government of national unity, as it was called. and he thought that the left had sold out. and a soon after he went to to austria. ah, he then later went to spain and he was just very fired up and he thought, democratic so for democracy doesn't, doesn't do the job. and he saw the, the rise of hitler in germany and of course, mussolini, and franklin's initially and franco in spain. and he did see the soviet union as a bulwark against coming against against fascism and the whole block later life. he visited cuba when he there were defected by that. well yes indeed indeed. but i think he, he, he was an idealist. he was an ideological zealot. ah, and he had no, you know, he just alt democratic politics is not gonna is not gonna stand up for the working

close to no less ideological. then the people that say, theoretically, were his best friends, although he was cheating on them as it were, who were involved in the qu, against more. so that can iran who were involved in all sorts of intelligence activities to destroy parties in the global self. yeah, he was, well, he was on the other side. i think i think the other thing that the cannot should not be forgotten about him was he did have an extraordinary capacitive deceit. he was brave, he was a brilliant liar. now it seems to me there's no reason why people who have that talent, if you regard as a talent, why they should be excluded from having higher aspirations for society. and so if you can still be an idea, idealist and be a liar. i mean, i, you know, i don't know, journalist i, well, i mean, arguably you, one of britain's top experts on the exit volley, gar, garden,

journalism in this country. and it's very depressing for any journalist to read the capture of journalism at the time in the fifty's and sixty's. later on to the sixty's, i by the intelligence services in by the united states intelligence and the british ones. tell me about how he ends up in the observer in the economist in beirut. well i, that's your tongue. the capture. i'm not sure i'd use that term. i believe the woman that he marries for the last time, the ex husband sam brewer. you don't miss him. who works for the new york papers? yes, me, sam brewer was sambro, had worked in the war for the 4 runner of the cia, and also been a journalist. and when he left the paper, he was with then and joined the new york times. new york times said you've got to cut all your links with him with the security services. and he said yet here. sure, i'll do that. but i didn't think anybody believes he did, i,

in journalist will tell you the world over intelligence people talk to journalists and vice versa. and they, there's a sort of symbiotic relationship, whether it's quite capture. i'm not sure i'd agree movie observe. david aster was happy with all his journalists in effect, rather than speaking truth to power or whatever the free as they were. they were. i think he was sent over for the next for, i'm not an expert. and david, as to i, my sense is that he was a bit naive. it was pretty naive actually. and there was a genuine sense that fill be had been done wrong that he'd been, he'd had a raw deal. he'd been accused of being a russian spy and the government in the end, the british government, in 1955, had cleared him. and his friends said, well, we told you we told you is not a russian spy. we've got to look after this guy. he's good guy, he's straightforward and so we've got to find him a job. so they, as you say, they found him a job with the observer and the economist,

and they sent him off to be route. i mean, well, since you were at the evening standard, i have to ask this because christopher steele, the discredited m. i. 6 agent, interviewed recently with great fanfare, saying, boris johnson made the son of the owner of the standard. now he doesn't understand that actually the russian guinea levied if he made him appear in the house of lords . if now, boys johnson, equally from that class, is a russian spy. i mean, you said, i mean, will you around spies of the evening standard, the london. no, but i was aware of i was, i was told that jack, the cartoonist, i don't remember him, but jack was said to be on a list of assets. now, this is a very murky area and as i say, a lot of journalists talk to talk to some intelligence people and they exchange information and they're useful to each other where the money changes hands, which is, seems to me crossing a line, i'm not sure. so i don't know, but on boris yes could. i'm sure you could paint one could come up with

a great scenario about boris is father who is said it has been reported to be have been in my 6 and boys, went to wheaton and therefore probably could put $2.00 and $2.00 together the sounds. i got a conversation at the st. george barn bay room, literally describe this place. nice amount in a lot of course it sadly in the news because of what's happening in lebanon right now. but what happens in evidence happens everywhere in the middle effects, the middle east, and therefore the whole world arg. yeah. yeah, this and george's was, was the place. i mean, bit barrett was a, was the new kero in away. a lot of people were moving away from cairo. this is intelligence people, journalists, businesses and so on. because they were a bit nervous about about nasa and they thought lebanon was a safer place to bring up, bring up children and so on. so, and that was a very, essentially, a very happy place. it seems at least if you were had a bit of money and were you was a u. s. proxy american government?

yes. me was, it was, and i the, the saint. george's, the bar of the saint george's hotel was the place where the diplomat spies journalists would all meet in the evening or sometimes indeed, in the morning, i spent all day there. and it was the place where you were, you know, if you wanted to know what was going on, you got plugged into the saint george's and you would be sure to meet some senior member, the government or some senior spy or whatever. and that was the place to be sent. at least that was better than press releases. i mean, the amount of alcohol that flows through this book, the 10 o'clock, you tell us what the 10 o'clock club is it? yeah, your tennis sob was what was the, the 2 chairman of that were sam pope brewer, who, whose wife ended up marrying philby and a friend of his who was a senior cia man. and they would arrive at 10 o'clock for pick up their po list.

but the newspapers under their arm and go sit at the bar and just chat. and i have the 1st martini of the day at 10 am and they would discuss what that what the new york times might be going to right and the following day. and sam brewer became rather over reliant on that on his, on his official sources. and, and which is, which is a sad thing actually in later life. yeah, i mean, i think we're all familiar with journalists who become over reliant on unintelligent sources. well, over here there's a big scanned over this integrity initiative, the institute of state crime, they listed journalists that were people that were favored to leak to that, that document itself leaked out. i was told, i don't know whether, you know, when i get no information or no one tells me no of all but i, b, m, c, i a are incredibly annoyed by all of this quite rightly that they're giving this

to their giving information to it. why is it that the americans didn't? i mean, you mentioned one theory that they were going to kill him. the americans, one theory that was as soon as they found out he was a spy, d and then you go into a long explanation of different theories as to whether the intelligence services here basically rescued him in a way and got him out to moscow because they didn't want a public trial here that would embarrass intelligent services in front of the world . i don't believe they went to more to, to route to in order to encourage him to go to moscow. i think, i think they still believed even when they were pretty certain that effective. they were certain that he missed 5, the russians. they still believed that they could turn turn in. this is one of the secrets when one of the key fact it seems to me about phoebe that everybody underestimated the strength of his ideological commitment. including from,

as i said, the russians. but the british still believes that good old kim underneath it all was one of us. and that if they confronted him with his what they regarded as his youthful folly of his, his anti fascism and so on. and they said, look, we can do a deal, we'll come back to us, tell us who else was involved. we can clean the whole thing up. and once they had the confession and they did have a sort of confession, i know this is not comfortable news for some people, but they did have a form of confession from him. and once they had that with some fake information in it, oh, which certainly was some fake information and quite what he was doing is not clear, but he was at the very least plain for time. but they, the british believed it seems to me, the british believe that once they had that confession, they thought okay, came is back with us. he will tell us he can stay in beirut and so on. and he

will tell us what's been going on. and that is why nicholas elliott felt comfortable in, disappearing back to london. and i think back of to africa where his next job was to seem surprising with dick why didn't weigh 5 for the building next door to the studio. would think after decades with so much information and secret stuff was being leaked to the k g b a that somehow suddenly turn one new element or because he didn't want, it seems to me because he didn't want to. he didn't want to go. i think he, he did miss britain when he, when he got to moscow he was. and this is, this is a very murky area and i can't tell you for sure. he was madly in love with eleanor because nobody really knows what was going on. a field is mine, but it seems to me he was very, very fond of eleanor. he was having a, an okay time in beirut. he was drink, you know, lot, but this is life is usually what she did on the american. it almost will need to

fact that that's right. that's right. but i think, i think ultimately he, he didn't particularly want to go to moscow, but he ended up, he ended up doing so for reasons i go into in the book, james, i'll stop you there. more on the cold was most famous british by after this break look forward to talking to you all. that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except we're such orders that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. at that point, obviously is to create a truck rather than fear. i would like to take on various job with artificial intelligence. real, somebody with a

robot must protect its own existence with herman by train, shaped by center. so those things in ah, who dares sinks, we dare to ask ah,

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it's about with welcome back. i'm still here with james having author philby in beirut. we one problem here is that they're not releasing papers. nicholas elliot, his best friend of the intelligence services, were to memoir the intelligence services he wanted in 2021 to help publish it. why? well, 11 spy experts said to me, am i 6 never reveals anything because it's bad for business. it's just, it sets a bad precedent if you release anything, then you are undermining the face in off potentials when they do selectively stuff gets to journalists and so on. there is a bit of that. yeah, no, i agree. i agree. i de white. no, i didn't quite know why they went release, specifically why they weren't released nicholas elliot's version equally. i'm not certain that nicholas elliot knew the full story. i think, i think,

as i say in the book, i think antony blunt had a major role that a lot of people did not want to get on to this because i was, i wasn't aware of that at all. no, this is a one of britain's most famous say, arts critics hanger, the of the queen's pictures friend of the queen for long. yeah, i'm related in fact to the queen, mother. and he has to do distance. i mean there's so much in the book, john kerry comes out terribly wanting to kill phil b. but tell me about blunt why else he in beirut, around the same normally be in london in the center london of the quarter all deck exactitude for art. exactly. it seems to me and i'm sure there's a degree of speculation in this, i confess, but i, i think i proved that antony bunk was in bare root for 3 or 4 weeks before phil. b was interviewed by elliott and i think antony blunt,

her became aware that philby was going to be confronted. now blunt had lost his faith in communism. i spoke to your remote in in moscow about 2018 years ago. and he talked about how blunted just lost his faith in communism, and he'd never really been committed. he was a marxist in a kind of an aesthetic sense, but he was, he'd really joined up because of his friend god, burgess, and blunt faith in the soviet union had gone. and i think when blunt heard that philby was going to be confronted, that he felt a out of loyalty to philby and b to save his own neck. because he, he was void. what phil be, might tell them. blunt felt he had to go to beirut himself and tell list and tell philby that he was going to be confronted. now blunt,

isn't blunt. well exactly. peter said, well, of course, why did he not just bring the soviet embassy in london or ring ring a contact in london? because i think blunt wanted phil b wanted to give phil be the choice himself as to what he did. and blunt was fearful that if he enrolled the russians, phil bes future might be taken out of his hands, that the russians might just say, right, you're coming with us. so he wanted philby to have the opportunity of being forewarned himself and making a decision for himself rather than or rather than it being it being decided for him by the russian. why is it that no, i mean you joke about town or eat jokes, will be jokes about saying when confronted about being a spy thing across i am initially and actually given the yemen, we been giving yemen quite a bit,

the world's worst humanitarian crisis. a when the $962.00 marxist river revolution out there in south human, it's obvious to his friends. i wouldn't be obvious people's, i mean, i think you mentioned how he, in polite conversation towards the end of his life, his musing on the spanish civil war on austerity, on the poor in ality. people around him just thought, well, caring man for yes. you know, that's right and, and her one of his for a former phone correspondence guy from the telegraph, a couple of nights fulfill be disappeared in beirut. he said that guy really cares . he said he is very motivated by but by humanitarian concerns. i think that's right. and he's not, he's not well regarded in britain for obvious reasons, and he deceived a lot of people and he cheated. and you can call it a conceit whatever. but i think i think he is owed at least, or some sort of understanding of his motivation of went around to them. i think

they got on exactly. i i yeah. so right now we have a ice was arguable right wing labor leader. we have austerity. are the effects of the 28 crisis, arguably rising inequality of labor and tory governments who have was disastrous was the canister one of his. he willingly. or what do you think she'll be would think of her the current situation. ah, my wonder indicates, i wonder, yes, i mean there are, there are lots of, i mean there are lots of middle cells i can use at a middle class carbonite still around and still feeling. we need something more, more extreme, whether philby would ah, i don't know. what can he deliver it? well that, i mean, that's the question. i think, i mean his is arnold deutsche. he who recruited him in the thirty's, he said you could achieve so much more if you go under cover. now,

i don't think you can argue with that. i think he, i mean he did a lot of damage to the west and so and so by that judgment deutsche was right. whether phil b would do do the same thing again. i don't know. i think he, i, it cost him a lot. i think in terms of personal friendships, i mean he even say he was asking for it, but all that drinking and stuff, he was not, he was not happy. nobody can pretend he was happy. he may have felt inspired by a higher cause and so on. but he was, nobody can pretend he was. he was a happy bunny. and while over here older, the fifty's and sixty's, we would have anyone reading british newspapers would have seen how evil the soviet union was. from his perspective, the seeing british imperialism dying of his he had, i mean, towards the end and be rude. he was the, the echoes of the nasa to his grace is still very important. yes. i explained. i think that me, i think he and blunt from what i've read

a blunts thinking on this. but they both felt certainly philby philby in 1933 also before said war is coming with hitler. there war is coming. you know, and i think he felt he could see the future and i'm not being facetious. i think he felt history was on his side and, and this was, this is part of the whole, the whole analysis of colonialism and so on was, i think he would feel completely vindicated by that. and everything, you know, in the and eden and so on. and it's, i mean, it was, it was a mess. what happened? why was he not impressed by washington? he was a most senior intelligence person from him. i 6 in washington as well as previously heading the anti russia. and he, soviet union department was being us of its way here in london. i think he was a, i think she was a bit of a snob. and i came across some notes which, which nobody's seen before from patrick field. from when patrick seal, who wrote

a biography, philby and somebody was very close to philby, had spoken to seal, and it talked about how unhappy he was in washington. he, he affected to be enjoying it. and so, but he, he really didn't like. and i think he, i think he just felt the him, they just felt the americans were a bit vulgar. i think. i mean, i knew i knew patrick c a. you say he was an intelligence with the i don't say that i don't. it was his father. i don't think his father was. it was easily famous for the biographer of acids. father davis, he patrick seal the late, late patrick. yes. but term, do you think today they're still lingering on their end because of that in the corridors of langley in virginia, the ca that quite trust the british there, they're intelligent services. he had class still matters. i don't know. i suspect less than i suspect less than, than formerly, than,

than was the case. i think, i mean, the americans were looking around the world in the 10 years after the war and realizing that maybe they needed to get more involved, that isolationism was, was not doing them any favors. and they were looking at the way the british and the french had been running things and thought this isn't great either, but recently we had the afghanistan withdrawal. and according to, if we believe the press here, i mean, i don't know how close they are to the intelligence services. the government here was taken on the hope about the all afghanistan withdrawal. yeah. yeah, it wasn't gonna happen. and the americans being which withholding information in case it leaks out from her. and it tells you that maybe the case if your stuff they'll be wearing stuff leaks out and they get the leaks out, then they can ask her. the journalists will ask questions and washington and embarrass the americans of sure, i can believe that. i mean, that's a basic need to know i need to know arrangement among,

among spooks and i. yeah, the special relationship is always, always been fairly rocky. i. i think it's difficult to, to generalize that. that's the one thing i would say, i think personal relationships are very important. and in some cases they would override the kind of big picture. but certainly in the case of afghanistan, it does, you know, all the mood music suggests that british were very much taken on the hall. and this book, i hope it's doing well. but even in the you describe when phil b is trying to write a stuff and serialization in british newspapers how close the intelligence services are to newspaper proprietor saying don't touch this and that eleanor. the, the final wife tries to publish things and the reviews are uniformly poor. yeah. without any element of the complex context, not even just on the political level on the psychological level. i mean,

i don't know with that is the reaction to this book as well. the need to always go his evil stop thinking about the complexities of the case of came philby. yeah, i mean that something, i mean i, i've said to somebody the other day, most people's reaction to read off. hitler is not anger. it's. it's you want to understand and it seems to me, philby is entitled to that as well. but where is an awful lot of people in britain just want to kick filbert? they just did. and i think he did some terrible things. but i think in this, whatever it is 40 years after he died, that 303233 years ultra duck. he is entitled at least to some kind of understanding . now, you know, i don't, i don't see myself as an apologise for him at all. but i, i, you know, i think he think he's owed that, james, having thank you. and that's it for the show will be back on wednesday, 59 years to the month that soviet double agents are under the blunder. queen

elizabeth the 2nd ot advisor, visited beverage, allegedly, to arrange, she'll be escaped to moscow until them get in touch with us. why social media let us know if you think the media in the intelligence services are still in bed with each other. ah, you were told that was bad. your eyes and your post. yeah. that it would stop you from having real friends and finding a girlfriend. but what they fail to mention is that you could make thousands of dollars every weekend by simply playing video getting a little bit ago, we formed the fusion that was showing a lot of them to property facilities, georgia resume the prison yet okay. much for to do so please don't don't of course to make video games a high paying job. you have to be gifted and quick witted, hang on to a spike, chicken installation fitness to live near bottom,

and miss thompson with produce park even started yet go away when you mouse storm you mothers deal with out or you me know neil's feel, are you guy of the order, but i will that be cool. it will still be stuck with these it's odd to do i with what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on of very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time time to sit down and talk. the postal service delivers a 100 and the $5000000000.00 pieces of mail every year. actually 40 percent of the world's mail right now the us postal service is in the fight of its life. and that

is reduction bad financial shape. now facing default, the postal service is a cash cow, and there was a way to pull money out of the postal service to put into the federal budget. there was a mandate that you're bringing a $100000.00, new revenue every month. the nature of privatization in the us postal service is very much hidden from public view. it's privatization from the inside out, a big business in money. it's not about the public and given them a service that they deserve. it's not about quality train workers. it's about with

ah, the headlines this our now to your micro, on the new cable strain from south africa spreads across the world with nations canceling flights and even keeping the fully vaccinated in isolation. also to come, president biden, and the mayor of san francisco place of black public backlash after their court violating their own mask mandates. pans, parents to the school in texas, have their personal details posted online after they speak out on critical rights theory and mask mandates. we hear from one of them, he posted our personal information and our addresses and told the internet to, to attack us. another guy threatened a bunch of us at a school board meeting.