of a whiteness on the planet. barbados, of course, was just became a republic. why only members of an independent reward 50 years, almost at the idea that he still kept this queen. this is the primary civil away supremacy in the world, right? the british empire, those links, and what that means to a place like barbados, which was britain's 1st laid colony. i read this is just not really news. it should have been a long time ago. the real question is why, why do we still have the cleaners out of state a place like jamaica in my family's from of the, of the commonwealth? i mean, is this just a bad time that this, that this money, he was removed from countries like barbados. i would say for me and of course prince charles, the edge of the throne did acknowledge the argument. some of the arguments in this book is so, so are we acknowledge, is a nice way to put it, i guess, but even the end of the print cells was there. i mean, i think sometimes we may need is good that barbados will get rid of the queen as an estate. does that mean barbados is, is fully in the country that can run its own economy that isn't in the close of the

west. absolutely not. is involved change on, but it doesn't mean necessarily that much a meaningful change, unfortunately. okay. now to how you begin this book, which will appall all a jacket bins watching this program. i'd suggest you, you talk about emanuel can't a, as an architect of racist philosophy of the he was used as a justification for colonial genocides that preceded him and went on after and go on to say, you can say similar things about voltaire. hey, go right up to darwin, right up to canes, and his attitude about the i, m f being able to be used in case a monkey house was created in former colonies. what have you go against the enlightenment? or the alignment is just the white supremacy of good p r. i mean, the very idea, the notion that you, that knowledge spread out of europe in the 18th century and enlighten the rest of

the world, tell you that he's completely p r. this is not true is completely false. and actually the, the knowledge that we get from the enlightenment is one which is the knowledge of white supremacy. so someone like emmanuel can, for example, is the intellectual philosopher for our current frame of human rights. whether just erase is nice with somebody you actually invited slave owners in america have best to beat for him because he actually generally fundamentally believe that i was not a full human being because of my blood. and that i couldn't approach rationality because of my blank. and that he was better, superior could understand the world in a bit more reasonable way because he's white in that's what people were talking about when we're defending the unlike. and, and you mentioned there are definition of human rights. we often talk about the human rights industry on this program. you can see acres of the racism that you've identified in the so called enlightenment in the u. n. conventional rights of the child. you know, cuz as what one does cancel one manual can so important because at the end of his

life, he comes to the conclusion that a slavery bad. colonial isn't bad and create this universal rights for him. when would he still have an but he doesn't think we're human being regular thing. we're still fully deserving of the full right. we get the right to life in a very similar ways. i would say you shouldn't. po to guerrillas. i don't think guerrillas human being just on you should go to him and kill them. and that's effectively what he says is human rights for him over to the right to life. doesn't you the right to equality telling you the right to prosperity doesn't give you the right to have all your stuff that has been stolen from you, given back to you in reparations. and so when we have a world today, which is the poorest father world being so co ops are in africa where black blue, the rigid father will be where the white will, if the west and everyone else in between. and, and you only have the right to life and not the right to prosperity. and then this is telling you that actually frozen in time and in history, the, the, the colonial logic in the colonial route. and that, that universal supposedly universal right framework is key to that. because it only

gives you the right to live in the right to anything. you say that the enlightenment, racism had to wait for the defeat of islam in spain before conquering the united states. but also that very many parts of this enlightenment come from. i know the are on service center to china. here with this is the problem with a like a minute. it takes a, a day to the 18th century to have this, this conceit that europe is the best because of 200 years of violence, right? $1492.00 only. she's the genocide in human history, where 60 to 70000000 people are raised in the face of the earth to conquer the americas, that the entry is slavery again, massively unparalleled abuses, a few of the slow bows human rights. although he was he to be human at the time and the wealth is generated from that and then creates this, this illusion that europe is superior. and so the enlightenment are actually drawing on line, i think, as we're drawing on african knowledge, arabic knowledge,

chinese knowledge. but it actually been whitewashed, like literally whitewashed, so when they take or when is when the spanish defeat the moors. they start burning books with all the arabic knowledge in and they, they but before they burn and they translate them into latin and changing the name . so it's generally possible that the alarm, i think, actually through all knowledge came from europe because that was what they were reading, right? that was what they were told. so it is, this is whole myth of whiteness of supremacy that is only possible because of those centuries of colonial violence which allows that intellectual conceit to exist. yeah, i'll get to the other myth that you try and destroy in the book in a 2nd. but as i said about the jacobin watching, i mean you quote malcolm x quite a few times in this book. do you not think that in some ways this enlightenment thinking can be used against the powers that are continuing to oppress people around the world? you don't think malcolm x che guevara karl marx graham. she use some of these

things against the very powers that you criticize in the book. is you see that people have used me because obviously declaration of like the rights of men, the un charter, malcolm. my absolute favorite uses all the documents and when you family organization, there are american unity and said that we want to west to live up to it's to was value. the problem with, in those documents we are, we're not human, not seem to be human being, which is why you can have a constitutional the united states is, is all men are created equal, and is a bunch of slave owners, right? because they don't see as being human to the following use those documents is that they are, they are limited because they within them they say they keep us fixed in the state of nature. they really do like the u. s. can you mentioned the start, the 156 years is the about abilene later. but in this, i think the amendment, that's the 13th amendment that gives us the mass incarceration, the 100 of the year, 60 elated. right. that you can still keep slavery in the incarceration system and what do they do? they, how it goes to a lot, a lot of level so that they can keep them in a state of labor. so actually within those constitutional documents,

you still have the router ratings. i would say, throw those away if you want to document that gives you rights and humanity and equality is the cation revolution. yeah, to only real revolution the, to any of the 19th century are where they have a document that was declared right for rights for not just white people or people. that's a document i'd say is a much more secure. i to write for him. what do you think of the fact that when you use these figures killed vector by, by the enlightenment, you somehow diminish the holocaust, which has been a constant refrain by some voices in the international community and so called and her and they did you, you talk about the curious way that a hallmark a western development, the essential ingredient may be genocide, but intent to say the twisted logic of western scholarship intent to must be seen as the vital ingredient of genocide if the holocaust is mentally important. like

this, the hugely important turning point in terms of understanding race actually really important specifically in europe. but the way they were in the standard just bad like is really the wrong way to understand. and i borrow here from sigma bowman who wrote a book maternity and holocaust, where he said that the way that we typically understand of course, is that he was his evil people. it was anti western and that is a terrible, they're the bad guys. and they did this terrible thing and we should never forget it. a major never happens again. and the argument he makes is actually completely opposite. the article was, could only have existed within west and then it literally couldn't exist anyway. how would you kill that? many people that the science to do it in the 1st place. and if you think about what it is, the ends of it started genocide. it is the concept of race, right? become not of human, not people. when those ideas come from those ideas come from colonialism when they come from slavery. and we talk about the genocide in the article is what we don't connected to the genocide that job the germans carried out in the media, which is the 4 runner to this is where they get all the ideas from the ideas of

racial science. the idea of mass, mass killing, etc. so if you could actually put the holocaust in historical perspective, is it should be seen as on the same continuum as genocide in american slavery multiple genocide in africa. the idea is that the west will kill lots and lots of people is not a new thing. the only new thing about the article was it was white and it was in europe. it was a boomerang effect coming home. so it's not an aberration. the, the article was to produce power by the west, by racism. and if we understand in that way that we have a much better understanding of where we are and where we are, who are we invite all those un, a human rights industry, people on the program to explain why certain cases like no maybe are not considered historically genocide, you, you mentioned the holocaust, which of course is industrialized killing in the book. you say you were taught complete propaganda about the industrial revolution here in britain, in school, talking about it immaculate conception in british history of entrepreneurship and

industrialization of deliver it. i went to a story where i actually got email from my old teacher at school. we have told a story like of where i was in a level history doing and just revolution causes of the industrial revolution. and i think he's still the same. i've been to a number of schools recently, and it is low, immaculate conception why people are great, or his science price and work ethic, etc. and as a teacher in the class, what about slavery? in this point, i didn't really know that his new slavery was at the same time, so it felt like it's probably related. and his response was, it is 9, the textbook never talk about ever again. and i was just never, never spoken back. because with one of the central is we have, and i'm from birmingham in birmingham industrial revolution. james, what they're saying here. it's a place where we have these progressive mix that were great and wonderful. but actually even just revolution is completely and utterly. and that in a genocide in the americas and with slavery because the key commodity gold, silver,

tobacco, she's got an order of what they call the atlantic 15, which is americans in the caribbean. all of them are produced. and if that's what is the spot, the industry the spot for? well, the spot for the growth is not just per store. liverpool, london, also manchester man just only become the major city after they connected to a canal to live who, when you pull the major slave for him. well, so when we think about discrimination, we don't think about slavery. we simply don't understand the industrial engine properly. so why is all of this cancelled as it were? i mean, your book is so culture has in this seems to be in cancelled from people's education . this is about politicians. it's about universities. i mean, i work in, can you think about the place where these ideas come from? it is the places which i've already working with universities is about the textbook . it is about the politicians. it is about the media. it is about the myth and the there and these are necessary because if you actually understand that the well that

we have today today, not in the past in bill, on the, not just the scar, a killing of people, but the current day you can the logic has not changed, right? and the conditions in africa, we couldn't even understand most of the condition that most of believe in africa, most of the world actually live in condition that we have no experience of right. one of the style effects that i came across in the book was born in somalia today as more chance of dying before their 5th birthday and the soldiers dying in the vietnam war. i mean that the conditions we're talking about. so if we were to accept that we have all the 1st 30 because children died by the 2nd issue would have to in the whole thing, right? so the system depends on that same colonial logic. and so we have to pretend we have to cancel, we have to miss out on the keep us comfortable cuz otherwise you'd have to change the professor came to address. i'll stop you there. more on the new age of empire

after the break with with when i was just seemed wrong when i just don't know. i mean you have to fill out this thing because the kid and engagement it was the trail. when so many find themselves, well the parts we choose to look for common ground join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. and i'll be speaking to guess from the world politics, sport,

business. i'm sure business. i'll see you then. ah is it now you think you're all nominate but they did deny about having my mirror. now i only hear up my lap and i hell of that. a man thought it's not going to happen in apple. marla, bab, begin thought no. well, i'm going out there to be a, well, i mean, a happy correlation, suburban young, and we tonia long. i've been with her and

welcome back. i'm still here with professor kinda andrews, author of the new age of empire. her racism, colonialism still rule the world. so again, the international monetary fund and world bank you single out her as present seen as a reform character. and joseph seagraves, sir, used to run the world bank and other figures, i guess, steven pinker, others may as being more of the same or, well, de facto apologise for racist enlightenment policy. how to presumably that that's what you're talking about when you're talking about developing countries because of loans is a light. hm. and 2 point oh, right. so i guess what i call in the book like is there is this idea that the west can be the solution, right? and we have this whole industry in the development industry is, is the perfect one where there is some of these changes are in nowadays. they don't necessarily talk about evolutionary letters because i usually talk about very clearly. light is a process. countries go through and they can become like the west if you just

follow these out. but the realities that the west can be the solution to the problem because the west is the cause of the problem. like why is that? why does the child mortality rate so high is? well, if you can explain that without this history and the prisons are when crunch when organizations like i make a particular gave all in conscience. all the evidence is this bed. the country is not good for the good is terrible for the good. so what's happening in this is there's an intervention in the economy, but it's actually making things worse in those countries. and one of the things we complain about a lot here is austerity privatization, neoliberalism. that's what they were due to africa, asia, south america, the last 50 years, the keep them in debt to keep them locked down and keep her, keep them poor. so actually with i am, if well bang you, in all of these usa view cade, that they are the new mechanisms of western imperial keep black and brand before. so that way people can be rich, you would have supported bar johnson's initial decision to cut got the 8 clearly. i

know why he no good in the but this is the meeting, the buying you get into right because of the day because because it's so bad you kind of need a raise. so kind aid isn't isn't a solution. aid was going direct. yeah. but that aid was going on 2 things that you criticize in the book. let me give you the or another jacobin enlightenment. go piece of where you are in the book. actually. it's not just the i m f. it is the new class and actual on of people of color that are created in these developing countries that carry out the colonial enterprise totally. and it's not new for you either. one of the things we missed sometimes is the lifetime bridge. by, for example, the largest empire that ever existed, hundreds of millions of people, slavery is the only cerebral debt could not have existed without countless black and brand people managing and administering him, but couldn't, wouldn't it be possible? right? there's always people when you set up a system of racism or a person as well,

you know, people who take the best option, they can for themselves and help to administer. so india and a great example at the high in the gym by the british army in india, it was mostly indian people. so somebody like the amorous massacre, which was anniversary just recently where the army, this winning to live in children. many of those soldiers, what you mean there was, it wasn't the empire races lately, whenever possible, with those people who are black and brand collaborative. so today when we see the same thing happening and we see countries like china, china just the baby doesn't matter. the west valley se logics. when you see the corrupt leaders in africa, lead that when you see the both pieces like we have enough to follow. but right now, government right now, it's not an easy enough to be surprised about how we're going to get to them. because classical, i mean on this show we should be overly impressed. black and brown, people in the worst johnson cabinet will come all the harris in the way this is

going to be today, but you denied me that i just said, please feel to do the queen a baby and it can be in a black dory. probably not because if i need to has policies which are against those are i so what you tend to have, what's happening now to speak to me and in the states is no different. it is. there's actually the, the real identity politics in getting black and brown people to say and do things with people and that, but again, that's not new that's been going on for a long time. was things can go straight from all the way from every center, right? through the late winter, a tweet by the treasury. here you say, what's wrong with the treasury tweeting? did you know that in 8033 britain use 20000000 of its national budget to buy freedom for all or all slaves of the empire. and that in a sense we have citizens now who are paying a recompense for the slave trade was wrong with the u. k. treasury,

bank of england doing that. i mean, talk about a guy next. we're coming out of the psychosis of weight is woocommerce delusions. i mean that tweet was a celebrate to retweet from the chairs. are you thinking about this gray on the taxpayer? how do bonnie slavery in it made me feel bad to not me, my nan, a lot of my family to send it on. the slaves have been paying back, slave owner compensation in our tax is that even if you were quite mad and many people felt quite quite offended by that, which brings us to the things we think of progress aren't really progress. so hillary beckles that henry beckles who are university of the west indies talked about the abolition act. 1933 as being one of the most racist species of policy this ever put forward for british parliament even though abolished labor. and that's for 2 reasons. one is that massive payment to slave slave owners, so they actually bailed out slave on. and it is often the figures that $20000000.00 pound, which is often often quoted a $17000000000.00 equivalent was actually 5 percent of g d p at the time,

which would today be a $100000000000.00 man is a huge payment. it was 40 percent of the british government's income, which is why the loan take so long to pay back regulate. it was so such a huge favorite. but on top of that, he wasn't just that ridiculous, maybe to the slave on. there was also a period of apprenticeship for 4 years, so slavery doesn't actually end up to $8038.00, even though it's abolish. in 8th grade 3, it comes to learning a 4 or 4 years. formerly, as slaves had to work essentially a slave, the 75 percent of their time so they could learn to be free. but he's like that and he bought a net that the amount of free labor is actually lay to be more than a $100000000000.00. that was given to the slave. i mean, it talks to me, look about not progress at all. as a poet example of how, what we think is progress actually to the cement the racism include neurologic into the world and not just in the past. you can, you can see those legacies happening in terms of poverty. and you as the wealth the day as well. yeah, but you make a point there that i mean, in the context of barbados, we've heard one to go mainstream media the terms reparation used very,

very rarely you hear them. you're talking about sums of money that would bankrupt the united states and britain completely, if they had to pay reparations to their former colonies, surely. and, and former countries where they took slaves through. this is the reply river. there's no good argument against reparations. if you think about a country with bankruptcy, only that is the only one, right? that's the only one. the only actual good is that we just don't have the money is actually impossible to calculate in america. the calculations anywhere between 4 and 80000000000 trillion, sorry. and in the caribbean, somewhere like 9 trillions, all and take just a, that's the slavery india, regular 9 tree in india, i get you actually added up all this money is far too much of a back, which is why we should use reparations to understand that we actually the new system, let me economic system just dummy and even, even if you could let, maybe you could be back for a 2nd. and if the asia, africa were as,

as rich as the west, capitalism would en literally in tomorrow, is only because you can still resort from the african continent. the nothing is only because you can say you can get swish of labor in china and india for nothing that this economy function. so even if it could possibly were and you did make the will equally, how would economics is that would collapse? this should be reminded that we need a new political and economic system. ready and iran, reparations, that can be paid to fix that problem. what do you say, do? i suppose it would be upper class africans, maybe that even if they tried to carry out the, the kind of policies that come from the ideas in this book. what happened to come in a coma in gone and what happened to cabral and guinea? what happened to the member in congo? they all know what happened to the leaders that carry out policies that try to make africa a farrah and better place. this is where you know, the universe, they all die, this is their kill diag for you,

but this is where we need to proper universalist framework. and the 3rd world movement is that universalist ring writer says, you can't, one country can't do it. does that have been probably fine, even haiti, i mentioned 80 before. 80 has revolution get you to slavery, but he's surrounded by all these laden colonies or colonies in america, and is for that reason, one of the poorest country in the world today. in creamer one country and gone, you can do, you can only do it when you have unity across at least africa and across the, the 3rd world. yes. all right. get our free with that kind of idea. that's a pretty dangerous fact. you know, these are deals and what we'll need. dangerous ideas are the dangerous times. one thing i always remind people is we forget how the condition that the conditions are . a child dies every 10 seconds is emily access to food or water? most people in the world do not live in bare conditions today, and they would have lived on it years ago. it's already too late. i mean that, that's the, the always say for the malcolm x book, it is already too late. we need dangerous ideas on koreans, cadbury and all these different companies or do charity. what are you talking about?

they only do general deck, but maybe they can only do gerry because this deal. what for the countries over is every week, every hour from birmingham. so i go to go up into capital a number of times. it is their perfect example of colonialism. i mean, they lease you to steal that resource out of the grant in garner phenomena, god aged to birmingham. making to establish products and make millions of, of the fad and it gives some of that money back in philanthropy. okay. yeah, there you go. cabinets and they do everything they can for the welfare. vera was and they have improved their environmental impact. be very, very seriously. you talk about the book in the book that the is, is the fear of revolution, maybe an enlightenment. that is the chief motivator of elite, whether be the national health service, whether we anything, what do you mean by it is that fear of revolution that has been the motivator of every bit of progress we've ever had. if you think about it,

why do we get the idea of social democracy and the, you know, the, the welfare state is, you know, small pub is 3 really bad after a 2nd or 2 and any one but a fair company, there is a genuine of communism the love that you got the ease you got rushing you but right people are rising and they have to give things over. if you read the comments manifesto, call mark a list of things he was about off of them, right? because there's a confession to power. we are terrified of companies, lucian. therefore, we will give you education will give you some benefits or give you having a fit. just keep you calm, same way, and you get independent in the court. when you have people take arms, think of revolutionary and say, and then so the queen come and say ok, what will leave you alone will be, will give you this appearance of a freedom. so this is why i was so stuck in that. let me think about what happened there, where i always argue, or it was position. now. we were 50 years ago. we will kind of go into these. i

didn't know that there are no revolutionary movements anymore, which is why and the liberalism is creeped increased, increased increased across the world. the only way to push that back is to have the fear revolution, revolution ways, lisa, confessions. and that's why you know, condition that because we don't have no revolutionary politics. so anything we need to do the number one thing we need to do, if you want me to change, it's a, bring that, that resolution to make it something that makes really scared. and i guarantee you that when you're starting to see the changes that professor can address, thank you. a key that's over the show will be back home wednesday 34. yes, of the day of the beginning of the 1st palestinian intifada when it is when the off 1000 palestinians were killed by nature, a nation armed israel until then keep in touch, why social media let us know if you think revolution is the only way to stop continuing imperialism. ah, join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess what the

world politics, sport business, i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. talk driven by greenhouse shapes, bankers and those with theirs sinks. we dare to ask ah,

that breaking toil forced labor stress industrial injury corporal punishment. oh no. words with which we're all familiar. are you certain that the world you live in abolish slavery long ago? with

ah, i a message coming from joe biden. the head of talks with his russian counted the western media and goes into overdrive with allegations of an imminent invasion of you. crime, oscar says it's nato. it's causing friction in the region with europe in the grip of a winter of discontent. over soaring energy prices are great monitoring fuel poverty warns household hunting bills in the u. k. could so double canadian standard in south africa say that they feel abandoned by the government have to onto his new post on chrome restrictions on returning a branded over complicated and confusing.