ah, did i mention retents any watching a special edition of going underground on this day 156 years ago. the end of legal slavery was ratified by the u. s. congress through the 13th amendment. however, the global power and economic system remains shackled to a racist colonial logic. axiomatic linked to the so called enlightenment which fostered genocide so argues professor can and andrew's author of the new age of empire. now racism and colonialism still rule the world. he joins me now from the infamous slave town of birmingham in england. thank you so much a professor, andrew, for coming on the show. before i get to how you begin this book with the amazement of a b, b. c. news night presenter emily make lists of famous for reduce interviewing.

prince andrew, actually our amazement about what you said about the enlightenment. i better just ask you quickly about barbados, which you, you delineate the genocide there of the can i go people in this new book? i, you say her majesty may be the premier symbol of whiteness on the planet. barbados, of course, was just became a republic. why obviously, members of an independent were 50 years, almost at the idea that he still kept this queen. this is the primary civil away supremacy in the world, right? the british empire, those links, and what that means to a place like barbados, which was britain's 1st laid colony irene, this is just not really news. it should have been a long time ago. the real question is why, why do we still have the cleaners out of state a place, ledger maker my family's from of the, of the commonwealth. i mean, it is just a bad time that this, that this money, he was removed from countries like barbados. i would say for me and of course prince charles, the edge of the throne did acknowledge the argument, some of the arguments in this book. so where we acknowledge is

a nice way to put it, i guess. but even if the princess was there, i mean, i think sometimes we may need is good that barbados will got rid of the queen as an estate. does that mean in barbados? is it fully in the country that can on its own economy that isn't in the close of the west? absolutely not. this is invalid change on, but it doesn't mean necessarily that much of meaningful jake, unfortunately. okay, now to how you begin this book, which will pull all the jacket bins watching this program, i'd suggest you, you talk about emanuel can't a, i, as an architect of racist philosophy. the he was use of the justification for colonial genocides that preceded him and went on after and go on to say, you can say similar things about voltaire. hey, go right up to darwin right up the canes. and his attitude about the i m f being able to be used in case a monkey house was created in former colonies. what have you got against

the enlightenment? or the 11th is just the white supremacy of good p r. i mean, the very idea, the notion that you, that knowledge spread out of europe in the 18th century and enlightens the rest of the world, tells you that he is completely p r. this is not true, is completely false. and actually the, the knowledge we get from the enlightenment is one which is the knowledge of white supremacy. so someone like in manuel can, for example, is the intellectual philosopher for our current framework of human rights wasn't just erases. it was somebody you actually invited slave owners in the americans don't have best to beat for him because he actually genuine, fundamentally believe that i was not a human being because of my blood. but i couldn't approach rationality because of my plan. and he was better, superior, could understand the world in a bit more reasonable way because he's white. that's what people were talking about when, when defending the life and,

and you mentioned there are definition of human rights. we often talk about the human rights industry on this program. you can see echoes of the racism that you've identified in the circle of enlightenment in the u. n. conventional rights of the child. you know, cuz as one does cancel, one manual can so important because at the end of his life, he comes to the conclusion of slavery. bad colonialism bad and create this universal rights for him. and he still have an but he doesn't think we're human being great. other thing, we're still fully deserving of the full right. will we get the right to life in a very similar ways? i would say you shouldn't poach guerrillas. i don't think guerrillas, human beings told me, you should vote and kill them. and that's effectively what he says is human rights for him over to the right to life. doesn't you the right to equality? doesn't you the right to prosperity doesn't give you the right to have all your stuff that has been stolen from you, given back to you in reparations. and so when we have a world today, which is the poorest father world being so called sub saharan africa, where black blue, the rigid father will be where the white will in the west and everyone else in

between and in, you only have the right to life and not the right to prosperity. and then this is telling you that actually frozen in time and in history, the, the, the colonial logic or the colonial route. and that, that universal supposedly universal right framework is key to that. because it only gives you the right to live in the right to anything you say that the enlightenment, racism had to wait for the defeat of islam in spain before conquering the united states. but also that very many parts of this enlightenment come from. i know the are on service center to china. here with this is the problem there. like a minute. it takes the day to the 18th century to have this, this conceit that europe is the best because of 200 years of violence, right? 1492 unleashes the genocide in human history, where 60 to 70000000 people are raised in the face of the, of the concordy americans. that the entry of slavery again massively unparalleled

abuses. a few of those human rights. although he was he to be human at the time and the wealth is generated from there and then creates this illusion that europe is superior. and so the enlightenment are actually drawing on 9. i think we're drawing on african knowledge, arabic knowledge, chinese knowledge, what it actually been whitewashed, like literally whitewashed. so when they take or when is when the spanish defeat the moors. they start burning books with always arabic knowledge in and they, they, but before they burn them, they translate them into latin and changing the name. so it's generally possible that the alarm, i think, actually through all knowledge came from europe because that was what they were really right. i was what they were told. so it is, this is whole myth of whiteness of supremacy that is only possible because of those centuries of colonial violence which allows that intellectual conceit to exist. yeah, i'll get to some of the other myths that you try and destroy in the book in a 2nd. but as i said about the jack of bins watching, i mean you quote malcolm x quite

a few times in this book. do you not think that in some ways this enlightenment thinking can be used against the powers that are continuing to oppress people around the world? you don't think malcolm x che guevara karl marx graham. she use some of these things against the very powers that you criticize in the book, is you see that people have usually because obviously declaration of like the rights of man, the un charter, a malcolm my absolute favorite using all the documents and when he family organization there are american unity and said that we want the west to live up to it's to was value. the problem with, in those documents we are, we're not human, not seem to be human being, which is why you can have a constitutional united states, as is all men are created equal and is a bunch of slave owners, right? because they don't see as being human to the following use those documents is that they are, they are limited because they within them they say they keep us fixed in the state of nature and redo the u. s. can you mentioned the start, the 156 years is the about abilene later. but in the 13th amendment,

that's the 13th amendment, that gives us the mass incarceration the 156 years later. right, that you can still keep slavery in the incarcerated system. and what do they do? they, how it goes through a lot, a lot of level so that they can keep them in a state of labor. so actually within those constitutional documents, you still have the router racism. so i would say throw those away. if you want to document that gives you rights and humanity and equality is the cation revolution. yeah. to only real revolution, the, to any of the, of $900.00 century. where they did, they have a document was declared right for rights for not just white people or people. that's a document i would say is a much more secure. i to write for him. what do you think of the fact that when you use these figures killed by a factor by, by the enlightenment, you somehow diminish the holocaust, which is really constant. refrain by some voices in the international community so called and they did, you talk about the curious way that

a hallmark of western development. the essential ingredient may be genocide, but intent to say the twisted logic of western scholarship intent to must be seen as the vital ingredient of a genocide it to the holocaust is mentally employ a hugely important turning point in terms of understanding race actually really important, particularly in europe and the weight in the standards, just like it is really the wrong way to understand. and i borrow here from sigma bowman, 0 book maternity and holocaust. or is it the way that we typically understand the on of course, is that he was his evil people. it was anti western, the not is a terrible there, the bad guys. and they did this terrible thing and we should never forget it. and major never happens again, and the argument he makes is actually completely opposite. the article is could only have existed within western within it literally couldn't resist it anyway. how would you kill that? many people with that, the science to do it in the 1st place. and if you think about what it is, the ends of it started genocide, it is the concept of race, right?

jews become not human, not people. when those ideas come from those ideas, come from colonialism when they come from slavery. and we talk about the genocide in the article is what we don't connected to the genocide that job the germans carried out in the media, which is the 4 runner to this is where they get all the ideas from the idea of the racial science. the ideas of mass, mass killing, etc. so if you could actually put the holocaust in historical perspective, is it should be seen as on the same continuum as genocide in american slavery multiple genocide in africa. they have the idea that the west would kill lots and lots of people in not a new thing. the only new thing about the article was it was white and it was in europe. it was a boomerang effect coming home. so it's not an aberration. the, the articles are produced by or by the west, by racism. and if we understand in that way that we have a much better understanding of where we are and where we are, who are we invite all those un, a human rights industry, people on the program to explain why certain cases like namibia are not considered

historically genocide, you, you mentioned the holocaust, which of course is industrialized killing in the book. you say you were taught complete propaganda about the industrial revolution here in britain, in school, talking about it immaculate conception in british history of entrepreneurship and industrialization of delivered that i went to a story where i actually got email from my old teacher at school. we have told a story like of where i was in a little history do in industrial evolution causes of the industrial revolution. and i think he's still on the same. i've been to a number of schools recently and it is low immaculate conception. why people are great, all the science price work, etc, etc. and i asked the teacher in the class why? by slavery, in this point, i didn't really know that it's new slavery with the same time. so it felt like it probably related. and his response was, it is 9, the textbook is level never talk about ever again. and i was just never, never spoken back because with one of the central this we have, and i'm from birmingham in birmingham industrial revolution. james,

what they're saying here. it's a place where we have these progressive mix that were great and wonderful, but actually even just revolution is completely and utterly and that in a genocide in america and with slavery, because the key commodity gold, silver, tobacco, she's got an order of what they call the atlantic city, which is americans in the caribbean, all of them are produced. and if that's what is the spot, the industry, the spot for? well spot for the growth of birmingham, not just per store, liverpool, london, also manchester. manchester only become the major city after they connected to a canal to live, who, when the major lay point, well. so when we think about industrial illusion, we don't think about slavery. we simply don't understand the industrial engine properly. so why is this cancelled as it were? i mean, your book is so culture has in this seems to be cancelled from people's education.

this is about politicians. it's about universities. i mean, i work in we think about the place where we come from. it is the places which i've already working with universities. it is about the textbook. it is about contributed about media. it is about the myth and the there. and these are necessary because if you understand that the wealth that we have today today, not in the past in bill, on the, not just a scar, a call to people. but the current day the logic has not changed, right? this is an effort or a we couldn't even understand most of the conditions, mostly believe in look, live in africa. most of the world actually live in condition that we have no experience of right. one of the style effects that i came across in the book was born in somalia, today has more chance of dying before the birthday than the soldier head of dying in the vietnam war. i mean that's the conditions we're talking about. so if we were to accept that we have all these for 30 because children die by the 2nd issue would

have to in the whole thing, right? so the system depends on that same colonial logic. and so we have to pretend we have to cancel, we have to miss out on the keep us comfortable cuz otherwise you'd have to change the price again address. i'll stop you that more on the new age of empire after the break. ah a d c. because of the applicant and engagement, it was the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground.

a focus on ukraine, joe biden says, i don't accept anyone's red line. russia's foreign ministers again, marlborough says the nightmare scenario of military compensation is returning on this edition of the program, we examined the significance of both statements. welcome back. i'm still here with professor kinda andrew's author of the new age of empire, or racism. colonialism still rule the world. so again, the international monetary fund and world bank you single out, as person seen as a reform character. joseph seagraves are used to run the world bank and other figures, actually, steven pinker, others as being more of the same as well. de facto apologise for racist enlightenment policy. how to presumably that that's what you're talking about when

you're talking about developing countries because of loans. it's a light. hm. and 2 point oh, right, let's say that's what i call in the book. like there is, there is this idea that the west can be the solution, right? and we have this whole industry in the development industry is the perfect one, where there is some of these changes are in nowadays. they don't necessarily talk about evolutionary letters because they used to talk about very clearly. like there's a process, countries go for and they can become like the west if you just follow these are the realities that the west can be the solution to this problem because the west is the cause of the problem. why? why is that? why does the child mortality rate so high and somali, can explain that with that history and the present, right? when comes, when organizations like i make a particular gave all the countries all the evidence is this bed, the country is not good for the good? is there really good? so what's happening in this is there's an intervention in the economy, but it's actually making things worse in those countries. and one of the things we complain about a lot here is austerity privatization, neoliberalism. that's what they were due to africa, asia, south america,

the last 50 years, right? in debt to keep them london and to keep the keep them poor. so actually who i am, if well bang you in all of these usa view aid that they are the new mechanisms of western imperial keep black and brand before. so that way people can be rich, you would have supported bar johnson's initial decision to cut got the 8 clearly. i know why he now we're getting the but this is the meeting, the buying you get into. right? because you need that because because it's so bad, you kind of need aid, right? so kind aid isn't, isn't a solution. aid was going direct. yeah. but the aid was going on. 2 things that you criticize in the book. let me give you the or another jacobin enlightenment. go piece of where you are in the book. actually, it's not just the i m f. it is the new class and actual on of people of color that are created in these developing countries that carry out the colonial enterprise. oh yeah, totally. and it's not

a new thing either. i think one of the things we've missed sometimes is the like the british empire, for example, the largest empire that ever existed. have me bade me, hundreds of millions of people, slavery, colonialism, all these terrible things that could not have existed without countless black and brown people, managing and administering empire couldn't, wouldn't have been possible. right? there's always people when you set up a system of racism or oppression as well, you know, people who take the best option, they came for themselves and helped to administer. so india is a great example. at the high end of the british empire, the british army in india was mostly indian. so somebody land the amory saw massacre, i would say there was anniversary just recently where the army just went and killed like civilian men, women and children. many of those soldiers were in there were see it when the empire ration of slavery wouldn't have been possible at those people who are black and brand collaborating. so today when we see the same thing happening and we see countries like china with china just become baby just as bad as the west. certainly

same logic when you see the corrupt leaders in africa, let it lie. that when you see the politicians like that, we ended up with our father, but right now or government, or i know it's not a new thing. nothing to be surprised and i get to them because quite quiet things. mean on this show, we really overly impressed her black and brown people in the world, johnson cabinet, or kamala harris in the, the white as a way to me today for a meeting i just said to the queen, a permanent achievement. black dory. probably it would be the black, tory, but it's not energy because the easy to has policies which are against those were i so what you tend to have, what's happening nowadays, particularly in the states, is no different. it is. there's actually the, the real identity politics is again, black and brown, people to say and do things which are anti black and i didn't and, and that's there. but again, that's not new that's been going on for a long time. and things go straight from my all the way from every center, right?

through the enlightenment, to a tweet by the treasury. here you say, what's wrong with the treasury tweeting? did you know that in 80? that is new britain use 20000000 of its national budget to buy freedom for all are all slaves of the empire. and in a sense, we have citizens now who are paying a recompense for the slave trade. what's wrong with the u. k. treasury, bank of england doing that. i will talk about a. ready guy, next book of an era, psychosis of white book about delusions. i mean that tweet was celebrate to retweet from the treasury bank of england about this great tax, but how do a body slavery make me feel better known to me? my man and lots of my family, if you send it on, the slaves have been paying back. slave owner compensation in our tax is actually where we feel quite maddened. many people feel quite quite offended, but we bring them to the, the things we think of progress on really progress. so hillary becker was the entry

beckles us university, the west indies talked about the abolition at $933.00 and being one of the most racy species of policy that ever put forward for a brace bottom. even though abolish labor. and that's for 2 reasons. one is that massive payment to slave slave on it, so they actually failed at slave own. and it is often the thing is 20000000 pound, which is often often quoted to 17000000000. the equivalent was actually 5 percent of g d p at the time, which would be a $100000000000.00. it's a huge payment. it was 40 percent of the british government income, which is why the loan take so long to pay back. right. so such a huge favorite, but on top of that, it wasn't just that ridiculous labor to the slave on. there was also a period of apprenticeship before you, so slavery didn't actually end until $1858.00, even though it's a bonus and 3 and comes lord a day for a 4 year for one is late and had to work since the slave, the 75 percent of the time so they could learn to be free, but it's like the book and that, that amount of free labor is actually calculate to be more than the 100000000. that

was given to this way. i mean, it took me look about not progress to this apartment example we have what we think it was actually to submit the racism a colonial logic into the world and not just in the past. you can, you can see the legacy happening in terms of the and who has a wealth today as well. yeah, but do you make a point there that i mean, in the context of barbados we've heard on mainstream media the terms reparation used very rarely you hear them. you're talking about terms of money that would bankrupt the united states and britain completely, if they had to pay reparations to their former colonies, surely, and than former countries, where they took slaves through each of the ripper le ripper. it is no good argument against reparations. if you think about a country banker, the only one i know is the only one, right? that's the only one. the only actual good is that we just don't have the body is actually impossible to calculate in america that the calculations anywhere between 180000000000 trillion, sorry, and in the caribbean,

somewhere like 9 trillions all and just a, that's the slavery india regular 9 tree. and from india, i get you actually added up all this money is far too much of a back, which is why you should, we should use reparations to understand that we actually, the new system, let me economic system just me. and even, even if you could less imagine you could be back for a 2nd. and if the asia, africa were as, as rich as the west, capitalism would en literally in tomorrow, is only because you can still resort from the african continent. nothing is only because you can say you can get swish of labor in china and india for nothing that this economy function. so even if it could possibly were and you did make the will equally, how would economics is that would collapse? this should be reminded that we need a new political and economic system and iran, reparations, that can be paid to fix that problem. what is a, do? i suppose it would be upper class africans, maybe that even if they tried to carry out the am the

kind of policies that come from the ideas in this book. what happened to come in a crewman in garner? what happened to cabral in guinea? what happened to remember in congo, they all know what happened to the leaders that carry out policies that try to make africa a farrah and better place. this is where you knew the universe where they all die. this is their kill diag for you, but this is where we need to proper universalist framework. and the 3rd world movement is that universalist language writer says, you client, one country can't do it. does that have been probably fine. even haiti, i mentioned 80 before. 80 has revolution gets you to slavery, but he's surrounded by all these latent colonies or colonies in america. and he's for that reason, one of the, for his country in the world today in creamer one country and gone. you can do, you can only do it when you have unity across at least africa and across the, the 3rd world. and our free with that kind of idea. that's a pretty dangerous fact. yeah. so these are daily, but we'll need dangerous ideas or the dangerous times. one thing i always remind

people is we forget how the condition bad. the conditions are. a child dies every 10 seconds is emily access to food or water? most people in the world do not live in bare conditions today. then they would have lived on it years ago. it's already too late. i mean, that doesn't, that we're saying it's american mix book. it is already too late. we need dangerous ideas. what harm koreans cadbury and all these different companies or do charity? what are you talking about? they only do general deck, but even they can only do gerry because this deal, what for the countries over is every week? every error from birmingham. so i go to go up into capital a number of times. it is a perfect example of colonialism. i mean, they listen to steel that resource out of the grant, in garner phenomena regarding 8 it to birmingham making to establish products and make millions of the fad and, and give some of that money back in for lunch of me. well can there you go cabinet to say they do everything they can for the welfare of error was and they have

improved their environmental impact. i will be very, very seriously. you talk about the book in the book that the is, is the fear of revolution or maybe an enlightenment. that is the chief motivator of elite, whether be the national health service, whether we anything, what do you mean by it is that fear of revolution that has been the motive age of every bit of progress we've ever had anything about it? why do we get the idea of social democracy and the, you know, the, the welfare state is all you is only a small part is 3 really bad after the 2nd law to any one. but if they're coming to a genuine communism, the rather you got he's you got rushing you, but right people are rising and they have to give things over a day. if you read the comments manifest of call mark, there's a list of things he was about off of them, right? because there's a confession to power. we are terrified of companies, lucian. therefore, we will give you education will give you some benefits or give you housing. if

interested you keep you calm. same way and you get independent in the country. when you have people take arms, they could revolutionary and say and then so the queen will come and say ok, what will leave you alone will give will give you this appearance of a freedom i. so this is why i was so stuck in that. let me think about what happened there, where i always argue in a worse position. now, we were 50 years ago. we will kind of go into these. i didn't know that there are no revolutionary movements anymore, which is why and the liberalism is creeped increased, increased increased across the world. the only way to push that back is to have the fear revolution, the fear revolution, ways, lisa, confessions the methylated organization that because we don't have no revolutionary policy. so anything we need to do, the number one thing we need to do, if you want me to change, it's a, bring back that, that revolution to make it something that may fairly scared. and i guarantee you that's when you start to see the changes that that professor can address. thank you . a key that's over the show will be back home wednesday 34. yes. for the day of

the beginning of the 1st palestinian intifada, when these were enough, 1000 palestinians were killed by nature, nation armed israel until then keep in touch, my social media. let us know if you think revolution is the only way to stop continuing imperialism. ah, so driven by drainage shaped banks concur some of those with theirs sinks, we dare to ask ah,

back, breaking toil, forced labor stress industrial injury corporal punishment. own words with which we are all familiar are you certain that the world you live in? abolish slavery long ago. ah,

ah, headlines right now here we're not to you. international. vladimir putin arrives in india on only his 2nd trip abroad since the pandemic. and it comes in just a day ahead of the president's plan video conference with you as president joe biden. with the message from joe biden, as to western media goes into overdrive with allegations of an imminent full scale invasion of ukraine. with europe in the grip of a winter of discontent, topo soaring energy prices. one group monitoring fuel polity warns household heating bills and the u. k could soon double and vaccination cooperation the only way to beat the pandemic. that's the warning from the president of the international federation of the red cross speaking to us here at.