busy monday for your while vide headlines, it will continue into the evening hours with my colleague unit o'neil. he's at the desk and hop an hour's time. for the meantime, though, thank you for joining with . join me every thursday on the alex simon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess from the world of politics, sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm. ah. i mean, ah, with

i'm ashen return senior watching a special edition of going underground on this day 156 years ago. the end of legal slavery was ratified by the u. s. congress through the 13th amendment. however, the global power and economic system remains shackle to a racist colonial logic. axiomatic linked to the so called enlightenment which fostered genocide. so argues professor k and andrews, author of the new age of empire. now racism and colonialism still rule the world. he joins me now from the infamous slave town of birmingham in england. thank you so much. a professor andrews for coming on the show. before i get to how you begin this book with the amazement of a b, b. c. news night presenter emily made lists of famous fam introduce interviewing prince andrew actually or amazement about what you about the unlike was i better

just ask you quickly about barbados, which are you, you delineate the genocide there of the calin are go people in this new book you say, her majesty may be the premier symbol of whiteness on the planet. barbados, of course, was just became a republic. why obviously, members of an independent were 50 years, almost at the idea that he still kept this queen. this is the primary way supremacy in the world, right? the british empire, those links, and what that means to a place like barbados, which was britain's 1st laid colony irene, this is just not really news. it should have been a long time ago. the real question is why, why do we still have the cleaners out of state a place? ledger maker, my family is from of the, of the commonwealth. i mean, it is just a bad time that this, that this money, he was removed from countries like barbados. i would say for me and of course prince charles, the edge of the throne did acknowledge the argument, some of the arguments in this book. so where we acknowledge is

a nice way to put it, i guess, but even the end of the print cells was there. i mean, i think sometimes we may need is good that barbados will get rid of the queen as an estate. does that mean in barbados? is it fully in the country that can run its own economy that isn't in the clause of the west? absolutely not. is a symbolic change on, but it doesn't mean necessarily that much of meaningful jake, unfortunately. okay, now to how you begin this book, which will pull all the jacket bins watching this program, i'd suggest you, you talk about emanuel can't a, a, as an architect of racist philosophy. the he was used as a justification for colonial genocides that preceded him and went on after and go on to say, you can say similar things about voltaire. hey, go right up to darwin right up to canes. and his attitude about the i m f being able to be used in case a monkey house was created in former colonies. what have you got against

the enlightenment? or the alignment is just the white supremacy of good p r. i mean, the very idea, the notion that you, that knowledge spread out of europe in the 18th century and enlightens the rest of the world, tells you that he is completely p r. this is not true, is completely false. and actually the, the knowledge we get from the enlightenment is one which is the knowledge of white supremacy. so someone like emmanuel can, for example, is the intellectual philosopher for our career framework of human rights. was it just erased? it was somebody you actually invited slave owners in the americans don't have best to beat for him because he actually generally fundamentally believe that i was not a human being because of my blood that i couldn't approach rationality because of my blank. and he was better, superior, could understand the world in a bit more reasonable way because he's white and that's the people we're talking about when we're defending the life. and, and you mentioned there are definition of human rights. we often talk about the

human rights industry on this program. you can see acres of the racism that you've identified in the so called enlightenment in the u. n. convention on rights of the child. yeah, cuz what, what does cancel on a manual can so important? because at the end of his life, he comes to the conclusion that a slavery bad. colonial isn't bad and creates this universal rights for him. and he still have an but he doesn't think we're human being great. other thing, we're still fully deserving of the full right. we get the right to life in a very similar ways. i would say you shouldn't po to guerrillas. i don't think guerrillas human being just on the bottom and kill them. and that's effectively what he says is human rights for him over to the right to life. doesn't you the right to equality? doesn't you the right to prosperity doesn't give you the right to have all your stuff that has been stolen from you, given back to you in reparations. and so when we have a world today, which as the poorest father were being so called sub saharan africa, where blessedly, the richard father will be where the white will is the west and everyone else in between and in, you only have the right to life and not the right to prosperity. and then this is

telling you that actually frozen in time and in history, the, the, the colonial, logical and the colonial route. and that, that universal supposedly universal right framework is key to that. because it only gives you the right to live in the right to anything you say that the enlightenment, racism had to wait for the defeat of islam in spain before conquering the united states. but also that very many parts of this enlightenment come from. i know the are on service center to china here was it is the problem with the like a minute. it takes a, a day to the 18th century to have this, this conceit that europe is the best because of 200 years of violence, right? 1492 unleashes this genocide in human history, where 60 to 70000000 people are raised in the face of years to conquer the americas, that the entry of slavery again massively unparalleled abuses. a few of those human

rights though he was he to be human at the time. and the wealth is generated from there and then creates this illusion that europe is superior. and so the enlightenment are actually drawing on line. i think we're drawing on african knowledge, arabic knowledge, chinese knowledge. but it actually been whitewashed, like literally whitewashed. so when they take or when is when the spanish defeat the moors. they start burning books with all these arab acknowledging and they, they, but before they burn them, they translate them into latin and changing the name. so it's generally possible that the alarm, i think, actually through all knowledge came from europe because that was what they were really right. i was what they were told. so it is, this is whole myth of whiteness of supremacy that is only possible because of those centuries of colonial violence which allows that intellectual conceit to exist. yeah, i'll get to the other myth that you try and destroy in the book in a 2nd. but as i said about the jack of ins watching, i mean you quote malcolm x quite a few times in this book. do you not think that in some ways this enlightenment

thinking can be used against the powers that are continuing to oppress people around the world? you don't think malcolm x che guevara karl marx graham. she use some of these things against the very powers that you criticize in the book. is you see that people have used me because obviously declaration of like the rights of man, the un charter, a malcolm. my absolute favorite, using all these documents and when you family organization there are american unity and said that we want the west to live up to it's, there was value the problem with in those documents we are, we are not human, not seem to be human being which is why you can have a constitutional united states. this is all men are created equal, and it's a bunch of slave owners, right? because they don't see as being human for the following use. those documents is that they are, they are limited because they, within them they say they keep us fixed in the state of nature. they really do like the u. s. that you mentioned to the start, the 156 years is the about abilene later. but in this, i think the amendment, that's the 13th amendment,

that gives us the mass mass incarceration 156 years later that you can still keep slavery in the incarcerated system. and what do they do? they how it goes through a lot, a lot of level so that they can keep them in a state of labor. so actually within those constitutional documents, you still have the router ratings. i would say, throw those away. if you want to document that gives you rights and humanity and equality is the cation revolution. yeah. to only real revolution, he had the to any of the of 900 century where they did, they have a document that was declared right for rights for not just white people or people. that's a document i would say is a much more secure. i to write for him. what do you think of the fact that when you use these figures killed factor by, by the enlightenment, you somehow diminish the holocaust, which has been a constant refrain by some voices in the international community and so called and, and they did you talk about the curious way that a hallmark, a western development, the essential ingredient may be genocide,

but intent to say the twisted logic of western scholarship intent to must be seen as the vital ingredient of a genocide if the holocaust is mentally employed like this, the healing point turning point in terms of understanding race actually really important, particularly in europe, and the way we understand that he just beg lackey's is really the wrong way to understand. and i borrow here from sigma bowman, 0 book maternity and holocaust. where he said that the way that we typically understand, of course, is that it was his evil people. it was anti western and that is a terrible, they're the bad guys. and they did this terrible thing and we should never forget it. and measure them happens again, and the argument he makes is actually completely opposite. the article was, could only have existed within western within, it literally couldn't resist it anyway. how would you kill that? many people that decided to do it in the 1st place. and if you think about what it is, the ends of it started genocide, it is considered race, right? used to come, not so human, not people when those ideas come from those ideas,

come from colonialism when they come from slavery. and we talk about the genocide in the article is what we don't connected to the genocide that job the germans carried out in the media, which is the 4 runner to this is where they get all the ideas from the ideas of racial science. the ideas of mass, mass killing, etc. so if you could actually put the hand, of course in historical perspective, is it should be seen as on the same continuum as genocide in american slavery multiple genocide in africa. they have the idea that the west would kill lots and lots of people is not a new thing. the only new thing about the article was it was white and it was in europe. it was a boomerang effect coming home. so it's not an aberration. the, the articles are produced by her, by the west, by racism. and if we understand in that way that we have a much better understanding of where we are and where we are, who are we invite all those un, a human rights industry, people on the program to explain why certain cases like no maybe are not considered historically genocides, you, you mentioned the holocaust,

which of course is industrialized killing in the book. you say you were taught complete propaganda about the industrial revolution here in britain, in school, talking about it immaculate conception in british history of entrepreneurship and industrialization. tell you about that. i went to a story where i actually got email from my old teachers who we have told a story like of where i was in a little history do in industrial revolution causes of the industrial revolution. and i think he's still the same. i've been to a number of schools recently, and he is low, immaculate conception, why people are great, or his science price and work ethic, eccentric as a teacher in the class war by slavery. and at this point, i didn't really know that is new slavery with the same time. so it felt like it probably related. and his response was it is 9, the textbook level never talk about ever again. and i was just never, never spoke of it because with one of the central is we have, and i'm from birmingham in birmingham industrial revolution. james, what they're saying here. it's

a place where we have these progressive mix that were great and wonderful. but actually, even just revolution is completely and utterly impossible that in a genocide in the americans and with slavery because the key commodity gold, silver, tobacco show got an order of what they call the atlantic system, which is american caribbean. order them and produce it. and if that's what is the spot, the industry, the spot for? well, spot for the growth is not just per store. liverpool, london, also manchester man just only becomes a major city after they connected to a canal to little when you know, for the major label as well. so when we think about industry lucian, we don't think about slavery. we simply don't understand the industrial engine properly. so why is all of this cancelled as it were? i mean, your book is full culture in this seems to be cancelled from people's education. this is about politicians. it's about universities. i mean, i work in,

we think about the place where these ideas come from. these places, which i've already working with universities, is about the textbook. it is about the politics about media, it is about the miss. and these they are, these are necessary because if you actually understand that the wealth that we have today today, not in the past in bill, on the, not just the scar, a killing of people. but the current day can, the logic has not changed, right? the conditions in africa, we couldn't even understand most of the condition that most people live in live in africa. most of the world actually live in condition that we have no experience of right. one of the style effects that i came across in the book was born in somalia today as more chance of dying before their 5th birthday than the soldier had of dying in the vietnam war. i mean that the conditions we're talking about. so if we were to accept that we have all the 1st 30 because children died by the 2nd, then she would have to in the whole thing, right? so the system depends on that same colonial logic. and so we have to pretend we

have to cancel. we have to miss out on the keep us comfortable cuz otherwise you'd have to change the price again. that was, i'll stop you there more on the new age of empire after the break. ah, a a with

ah, welcome back. i'm still here with professor kinda andrews, author of the new age of empire. her racism, colonialism still rule the world. so again, the international monetary fund and world bank you single out her as present seen as a reform character. joseph seagraves, sir, used to run the world bank and other figures. it is, stephen pinker, others are as being more of the same or well, de facto apologise for racist enlightenment policy. how to presumably that that's

what you're talking about when you're talking about developing countries. because of loans in light. hm. and 2 point oh right. i think that's what i call in brooklyn . there is, there is this idea that the west can be the solution. right. and we have this whole industry in the development industry is, is the perfect one where there is some of these changes are in nowadays they don't necessarily talk about evolutionary letters because they used to talk about very clearly. like there's a process. countries go through and they can become like the west if you just follow these are the realities that the west can be the solution to this problem because the west is the cause of the problem. why? why is that? why does the child mortality rate so high and somali, can explain that with history and the present. when crunch when organizations like i make a particular gave volved in countries. all the evidence is this bed that are going to is not good for the good. is there over the good or what's happening in this is there is an intervention in the economy, but it's actually making things worse in those countries. and one of the things we complain about a lot here is austerity privatization,

neoliberalism. that's what they were due to, and africa, asia, south america, the last 50 years to keep them in debt to keep them locked down to either keep them poor. so i can go with, i am, if well bang you in all of these usa view cade, that they are the new mechanisms of western imperial keep black and brown before. so that way people can be rich, you would have supported deborah johnson's initial decision to cut got the aide clearly i no, because it, but this is the which is the binds you get into. right? because what you need there, because because it's so bad, you kind of need a raise or coin aid isn't, isn't a solution aid was going direct. yeah. but that aid was going on. 2 things that you criticize in the book. let me give you the or another jacobin enlightenment ago. piece of where you are in the book. actually, it's not just the i m f. it is the new class and agile on of people of color that are created in these developing countries that carry out of the colonial enterprise

. a totally new thing either. one of the things we missed sometimes is the light tend to bridge by, for example, the larger empire the ever existed. i mean me, hundreds of millions of people flavor equal only terrible thing that could not have existed with countless black and brown people, managing and administering it couldn't, wouldn't have been possible. right? there's always people when you set up a system of racism or oppression as well, you know, the people who take the best option they can for themselves and help to administer . so indian, a great example at the high in the bridge by the british army in india, it was mostly indian people. so somebody lined the amorous massacre which we just recently where the army, this winning to maneuver in children. many of those soldiers that we see in the empire races lately, whenever possible, those people who are black and bran collaborating. so today when we see the same thing happening and we see countries like china with china just to come baby does

better with the same logics. when you see the corrupt leader in africa, lead that when you see the policies of like we have enough enough out of it right now. government right now is not an easy enough to be surprised about. we're going to get to them because causing quiet things. meet on this show, we shouldn't be overly impressed. black and brown people in the worst johnson cabinet will come on harris in the way this is going to be today. i just said, please feel free to the queen and they may be permitted and it will be in a black dory. probably not because it has policies which are against what you tend to have. what's happening nowadays and in the states is no different . it is. there's actually the real identity politics in getting black and brown people to say and do things with people. and that's right. and that's that. but again, that's not new that's been going on for

a long time as well. things go straight from you all the way from every center, right through the like with a tweet by the treasury. here you say, what's wrong with the treasury treating? did you know that in 833 britain use 20000000 of its national budget to buy freedom for all, all slaves of the empire. and that in a sense, we have citizens now who are paying recommends for the slave trade. what's wrong with the u. k treasury by giving them doing that. i mean, talk about the time i don't know, i don't think i got mixed up with the cycles of whitening talk about delusions. i mean that tweet with a celebrated retreat from the treasury bank of england about this great textbook, how to bunny slavery. it made me feel better known to me, my man, and lots of my family to send it on the slave. i've been paying back slave owner compensation in our tax is actually when we feel quite mad and many people feel quite quite offended by that. we bring the to the, the things we think of progress aren't really progress. so hillary becca was the

henry beckles who us university, the west indies talks about the abolition at 953 as being one of the most racy species of policy that ever put forward for a brief bottom, even though abolish labor. and that's a 2 reasons. one is that massive payment to slave slave on it. so they actually failed at slave own. and it is often the thing is $20000000.00 pound, which is often often quoted is $17000000000.00 equivalent was actually 5 percent of g d p at the time, which would today be a $100000000000.00 is a huge payment. it was 40 percent of the british government income, which is why the loan takes so long to pay back. right? so such a huge favor. but on top of that, it wasn't just that ridiculous labor to the slave on. there was also a period of apprenticeship before you slavery to the end of 28058, even though it's a bonus in a 3 and comes learning for a 441 is laid to work. thank you. leave the 75 percent of the time. so they could learn to be free, but it's like that. and that,

that amount of free labor late to be more than a 100000000000 that was given to this label. i mean, it talk to me, look about not progress at all. that's a perfect example of how, what we think is progress actually to see the cement, the racism and colonial logic into the world. and not just in the past, you can, you can see those legacies happening in terms of poverty and who has the wealth the day as well. yeah, but do you make a point there that i mean, in the context of barbados we've heard one circle, mainstream media, the terms reparation used very, very rarely you hear them. you're talking about sums of money that would bankrupt the united states and britain completely if they had to pay reparations to their former colonies, surely. and, and former countries where they took slaves through, well, yeah, this is a ripple i. ripper. there's no good argument against reparations. if you think about a country banker, the only one that is the only one right? this the earlier, the only actual good are you with is that we just don't have the body is actually impossible to calculate. in america, the calculation anywhere between 4 and 80000000000 trillion, sorry,

and in the caribbean, somewhere like 9 trillion oil and take just a, that's just a slavery, india record 9 tree. and from india i get you actually added up all this money. it is far too much of a back, which is why you should, we should use reparations to understand that we actually need a new system. let me economic system, i just dummy and even even if you could less or maybe you could pay it back for a 2nd. and if the asia, africa were as, as rich as the west, capitalism would end literally in tomorrow is only because you can still resort from the african continent. the nothing is only because you can say you can get swish of labor in china and india for nothing that this economy function. so even if you could possibly were and you did make the will equal with the whole economics, it would collapse. this should be reminded that we need a new political and economic system and iran, reparations, that can be paid to fix that problem. what do you say, do? i suppose it would be upper class africans, maybe that even if they tried to carry out the the

kind of policies that come from the ideas in this book. what happened to come in a coma in ghana? what happened to cabral and guinea? what happened to remember in congo, they all know what happened to the leaders that carry out policies that try to make africa a farrah and better place. this is where you knew the universe when they all die, their kill die it. but this is where we did a proper universalist framework. and the 3rd world movement is that universal is right, right. it says, you can't, one country can't do it. that's a big problem. you find that even haiti originated before ideas revolution gets you to slavery, but it's surrounded by all the slaying colonies or colonies in america, and is for that reason one of the poorest countries in the world today in creamer one country and gone. you can do, you can only do it when you have unity across at least africa and across the, the for the 3rd world. yes. all right, get our free with that kind of idea. that's

a pretty dangerous fact here. so these are deals and what we'll need dangerous ideas is dangerous times. one thing i always remind people is we forget how the condition bad. the conditions are. a child dies every 10 seconds with emily access to food or water. most people in the world do not live in better conditions today than they would have lived on it. is it already too late? i mean, i have that excellent, that we're saying it's malcolm rick's book. it is already too late. we need dangerous ideas. hard to really cadbury in all these different companies or do charity. what are you talking about? they only do gerald dick, but they can only do gerry because this stealing body for the country. so for example, week every arrow from birmingham, so i go to capital capital number at times. it is the perfect example of colonialism. i mean, they need to steal that resource out of the grant and got it normally got it, take it to birmingham, making to establish product and make millions of the fans and, and give some of that money back in philanthropy. well can there you go cabinets to say they do everything they can for the welfare of error was and they have improved

their environmental impact. and i will be very, very seriously. you talk about the book in the book that the, it is the fear of revolution, maybe an enlightenment. that is the chief motivator of elite, whether be the national health service, whether we anything, what do you mean by it is that fear of revolution that has been the motivator of every bit of progress we've ever had. if you think about it, why do we get the idea of social democracy and the, you know, the welfare state is all you is only a small part is 3 really bad after the 2nd or 2 and any one. but if they're coming to a genuine communism, the rather you got the he's you got rushing you but right people are rising and they have to give things over. if you read the comments manifesto, hallmark list of things he was about off of them. right? because as a confession to power, we are terrified of companies, lucian, therefore,

we will give you education will give you some benefits or give you housing. if interested, you keep you calm. same way and you get independent in the country. when you have people take arms, they could revolutionary and say and then so the queen will come and say ok, what will leave you alone will be, will give you this appearance of a freedom i. so this is why i was so stuck in that. let me think about what happened there, where i always argue was position. now. we were 50 years ago. we will kind of go into these. i didn't know that there are no revolutionary movements anymore. which is why neoliberalism is creeped. increased increased increased across the world. the only way to push that back is to have the fear revolution, revolution ways, lisa, confessions the methylated organization that because we don't have no revolutionary policy. so anything we need to do, the number one thing we need to do, if you want me to change, it's a, bring back that, that revolution to make it something that makes really scared. and i guarantee you, that's when you start to see the changes. progress again, address. thank you and key that's over the show will be back home wednesday 34. yes,

of the day of the beginning of the 1st palestinian intifada when at least 1000 palestinians were killed by nature, a nation armed israel until then keep in touch my social media. let us know if you think revolution is the only way to stop continuing imperialism with kaiser financial survival guide. when customers go buy, you reduce the price. now, well, reduce a lower that's under cutting, but what's good for food market? it's not good for the global economy, a

ah, the russian president on indian prime minister, a rough ballpark, top level talks in new delhi just the day before vladimir putin plumb video conference with joe biden. also ahead with the message from america's leader of the western media goes into overdrive with allegations of an eminent invasion of ukraine with europe in the grip of a winter of discontent over soaring energy. bryce is a group monitoring fuel poverty. one's household heating bills in the u. k. could soon double.