the past he is a podcast or the goggle which can be found on youtube and locals and in afloat we have these and he is a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as the author of the book, great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution or a gentleman, cross talk, rules and effects. that means you can jump in anytime you want, and i would appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen 1st the in our slow i, i don't think we can underestimate the significance of the 2 sentences that i cited in the introduction. i don't accept anyone's red line, and the nightmare scenario of military computation is returning. i don't think anything we've heard anything like this since the end of the cold. where am i over reading this, exaggerating this, go ahead. when well, it's dangerous statement to make because they just step over the red lines and that'll trigger our response. so, and i think that's why it's problematic because we are now in the game of chicken. russia says, expansionism is, is substantial threats,

and it will intervene militarily, if it's read lines are broken. so meanwhile, natal suggested unlimited expansionism is non negotiable principle because values. so we're heading towards conflict, therefore, however, at the same time made was suggesting it will not intervene militarily in response to rush the intervention. which simply means that they don't, i was holding, for example, authority to keep and with promises on membership, which will invite more and then stand by us ukraine subsequently collapses and states. so that's a lot of this, but doesn't really make sense at all. i, george, i don't think i could say better than that. ok. but basically saying, you know, with biting, i mean one of the most responsible things i think the president is ever said ok. and the meaning only the u. s. has read lines. no one else does. the arrogance and the, and the danger that presents here. and also george, i mean, the, the kremlin has been telegraphing this for a while now. i mean,

it seems like washington and nato is of their sleep walking into a catastrophe for ukraine. not for them go ahead. yes, that's exactly right. i mean, the russians have sent this over and over and over again. is that the expansion of nato, and the installation of nature infrastructure in ukraine. and you know, nato military operations in the black sea within the vicinity of russian territory, our existential red, russia, and your native continues to do with blinking yesterday on saturday, he was talking about a defensive alliance in russia. nothing whatsoever to worry about anything. and then, and shoulders and says the same thing over and over again. but they don't seem to appreciate that for russia, if you keep expanding, you know, inch by inch roches,

borders and you keep installing your infrastructure in violation of the nato russia housing act of 1997. if you keep doing this, then they do, does not come across as a defensive alliance, and it was made, there hasn't been a defensive alliance ever since. the end of the cold war. and just simply repeating this. as you know, the russians are going to be persuaded by it is just a full erin, which is why, you know, essentially they just not, they're not listening to what russia saying, and that's why i think it is leading to a dangerous situation. you know, when the, you know, again, one of photos, mantras that you know, a ukraine is a sovereign state and it has the right to choose whatever lines it wants to join. well, that's a very good pen. no bumper sticker, i mean, but it doesn't. it doesn't measure up to reality. i mean, in georgia, i've talked about this before, and you go back to the peloponnesian war. i mean, you look at city states, you know, they alliances, they developed and some city states wouldn't be able to join one because, well,

we're right next door to your rival, so that doesn't work well for us. i mean, in time and memorial it, what you have is stronger powers, make it very clear that their, their interests are being threatened here. and we're seeing a repeat it here in this case. but you're just saying, no, i mean, you know, our values in closing their eyes to other countries insecurity and growing, insecurity because of their defensive alliance. it doesn't make any sense. go ahead one, know what i think when people talk to speak english and then begin to thinking cliches . i think that's out there because the fundamental principle of international security should get a states to not increase their security of expense for security of other states. now, based on this principle states, you know, the develop specific mechanisms where true can be stationed, how many, this is not controversial yet. and that's why so astounding. want me to suggest is russell should have no veto in those say, or what happens in europe. this is truly an absurd principle of international

security that the largest state in europe should have no say, implies that russia has no legitimate security concerns. while the u. s. market of the other side of the plan, they should have the final say on everything in europe. so also there's never actually been this principle in international security, suggesting that expansion on military lines are some. elaine, you'll go in will writes and not the concern of 3rd party. i mean, when the song is placed missiles in cuba in 962, the us did not suggest is anonymous business. now instead, it was prepared to start nuclear war except which prevent you from exercising this, you know. all right, so this whole idea stays should be free of the joy in the military alliances that this is the source of jesus, i think is wrong. i think it's the source of money because it made always monopolizing security in europe, which is why they are p and some americans have changed to retro, completely so. so what they're saying is stage should be free to join nato head because it never goes the other way. you know that you is happy to try to undermine

this rational and c s d or duration economic union. however, you know, made there was the basic principle being allowed to join it or should be this fundamental principle in international security. so i just, i think is very wrong. and i think we will see more of this in the future. congress, i guess china rises. i mean, if china establishes a military partnership with latin american so, and soil and he got guatemala, cuba, mexico will really the united states still stand on this principle. so no, i don't think it's a prince at all. it is a claim for him on the most. i think george, it seems to me that i can make and it's really all about nato's dilemma. because if it doesn't change his position visa be ukraine than it really doesn't really have a reason to list. and this is the, there fundamental nightmare for almost 30 years, isn't it? why do we exist while we keep looking for threats, they've identified one, but a and, and then trying to enlist a new member on russia's border. they're not giving you crazy guarantees. ok. i

mean, this is one of the most absurd things i could ever imagine because i take the gremlins lines very, very seriously. ok. anyone that knows anything about history is in, in the, in the 20th century alone, russia was invaded twice. we add the 19th century. we have napoleon, this is right up to the doorstep. ok, george. and i think that anyone that doesn't take rushes red line seriously or not serious. people go ahead. no, i think that they are now serious people. 5 but you're absolutely right. you can see how this rhetorical inflation that has come from natives. and later on we are defensive alliance. russia is the rest. so what is your evidence that russia is an aggressive look what he's doing to ukraine? but your grade isn't a member of nato. so i mean, if you was trying to push your way into nato, you was trying to right,

go right up again into russia's borders. and now you're saying, oh, it's russia that is the in wrestle. and they again saying that i was the wrestler in georgia, but it would be events in georgia, in 2008. we're a direct consequence of made those ridiculous promise to both georgia and your brain, that they will eventually be members of nature. nature is continually kind of creating its own problems and then why justifying existence while we are a defense of life isn't horrific aggression, right? that is a emanating from russia. but it's something that is, has actually been triggered by nato, despite the warnings that have come from us. they say, well, the days of spheres of influence over russia has no right to speak of inland. well, once a week, i mean, it's moving into georgia, ukraine. i know when is the north atlantic treaty organization and that kind of them moving and then happily in their way into

a central asia. so we're getting all of the rhetorical excesses from they do. and it's glen pointed out when push comes to shove, and they have to justify themselves to the western public as a say, well, we only have sanctions in mind. we're not actually going to go to war because it was the western public isn't going to tolerate with russia. you know, quick thing. this argument, if nato doesn't expand the means, granting rational sphere influence. we hear this over and over again. so influence actually has a meaning, it's such an exclusive influence, expand nato. that's just tool for fears of influence. russia saying no expansion, best not sphere of influence? that's a, you know, that's, that's an opposing. and so we really turn the language on this has it's quite remarkable. yeah. well, it means when i tell you it means and you have really what it means. and what is it? the irony, when all of this is that when we look at what's happened in ukraine since 2014,

it's not russia, that is compromised, ukraine's sovereignty it's western powers, nico powers. ok, because we know victoria new and famous f the you and then you know, we start seeing the disintegration of ukraine. it's not russia that student is this the empty promises, the nato is giving the people in care of. and again, i want to stress everyone for the 3rd time. if there is a conflict, nick is going to do nothing for ukraine. ok, sanctions. i mean tweets that's going to be about it. it's a very cynical game to play and then blame it on russia. go ahead one. well, i guess the had that, that's one of the additional layer. so she puckers younger all of this because the argument for rejecting all this principles of international security is, you know, to respect the democratic decisions of your grand. but keep in mind or made or offered a membership to ukraine in 2008 only 20 percent of ukrainian wanted memberships.

the only reason why they wanted to join me now is because the west back the qu in 2014, and the new authorities in chief have in prison, the position leader, the crack, all the media disenfranchised millions of orders are protesters. i mean, this was really the sovereign, the will of the people. surely they would have to manipulate the claims assigned to this extent. i mean it's, yeah it's, it's insular this on a sled, on you ga shop with you 40 seconds here. i mean, you get there is a conflict. ukraine as we are know it now will be a very different place. go ahead at 30 a very different place because of if there is a gothic, it will lose a very large chunk of it. surgery. we know the way russians operate, i mean they, they will basically punish ukraine for its refusal to abide by the men's cause

and to try to resolve conflict with the dumbass peacefully. and so there is a conflict. you're all, listen, extensive territory will be lost. russia doesn't really want to do this, but you brain will have to pay a price just like you've ready paid a price by losing crimea. i mean, that would be, they refused to accept the agreements, and they overthrow a legitimate, let legitimately elected government. all you're right, they pay the price, paid the price or a gentleman and we're going to go to hard break here and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new state park. ah. join me every thursday on the alex simon, should i'll be speaking the guess on the world politics sport business. i'm show business. i'll see you then.

oh i wrong when i just don't know, i have to ship out this thing because the african and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look so common ground. awe back breaking, toil, forced labor stress,

industrial injury. corporal punishment. own words with which we are all familiar are you certain that the world you live in abolish slavery long ago? a ah,

welcome back. across that were all things are considered. i feel about this is the home and it to remind you were discussing some real news. ah yes. go back to georgia in budapest and change gears a bit here. there's another conflict brewing close geographically in the balkans. something that you and i am the goggle of cupboard very extensively and give us the lay of the land here. why is it important here? because i want everyone to know when our audience george is and pre eminent expert on the force destruction of yugoslavia in the 990 s and the legacy of policy initiative, quote unquote, which started under the clinton administration is coming to fruition. but probably in ways that they didn't whole for go ahead george. yes, what i mean, what happened was at the giant,

the germany 1st. then the united states seized on yugoslavia is actually to price it away from any kind of influence from russia and helped to break up this country. what happened was that they created a state that have no real hope of the existence which was bosnia, which is basically divided by muslims by 40 percent of about 33 percent. crowe at about 17 percent. and there was no way that the states could exist, but nonetheless, the united states, all this boss and they are, as it's client states in europe, much as the german. so corporations lavine. is that by and say, wow, they, you know, there was a war there because a large percentage chunk of a population wouldn't want to live under most of them dominate the governor. i'm but nonetheless, you know, they coupled together the dayton accords are, you know,

clinton on something done a foreign policy success before his re election. well, 20000000 now 25 years on the state really isn't functioning. i mean, it was always a kind of an artificial entity. and the bosnian serbs really now few very little allegiance to the state and want to go their separate ways entirely in accord with the principles of national self determination. the clinton administration alumni who are back in the, by the ministration really are furious about this. their price creation, this, the state of bosnia is on the brink of dissolution. now threatening unspecified action certainly, sanctions. and they've already imposed sanctions on of a big well, they're also threatening a military action, you know,

to prevent the dissolution of a state that has never existed as an independent entity other than police boss 30 years. and, you know, when, when it comes to show, you know, they will, then they will try to push forward with some kind of action against the last infrastructure of propaganda that has already gone into operation in the western media. horrible sounds of genocide, genocide and you know this, this could escalate into, into quite a nasty conflict. now this time i think with different outcome from the 1990 s ross is thinking a very active in interested role in what's going on in the governor. and there's not, there isn't that great need to unity that existed in the sort of the, hey, dave triumphalism, immediately off of the cold war. glenn, you can explain to our viewers here. ok, this buffy hurts of aveena this,

this experiment that the europeans and the americans created. it's a, it was never a viable state. still not a viable state in the am a good chunk of the population. the doesn't want to be in that thing and they were forced to ok. they were me to military force. they were forced to join the state and they didn't want to be part of it. it's unravel the serves in bosnia herzegovina saying they don't want to participate anymore. and so there's the possibility of a war. why i mean, i don't understand why this is something, something that's so important to the european union. and i even less understand why it's important to the americans go in on how your role in the grades are either way, if it could have worked. and the problem is that the e u is actually been a great extent there also a lot of this chaos because it has been the primary doctor to undermine and the fragile state of the bus there, which was set up because just briefly when the war in boston came to an end in $95.00, it had the deep agreements which essentially states and what the cost,

what solution on the constitutional b, which was, was there were 2 or thomas entity is supposed to occur on the and the servant. so the set up the special powers to implement this, however, that you then hijacked it, this powers and you know, effectively ruling or both now, but they've decided the only way most that could be peaceful if it integrates into the u box there can, because if you want integrating the year, you have the centralized powers. if the abandon the entity system set up in the bait agreement, a centralized power in sort of you. so again, to summarize that he gets his powers or voicemail to implement the date agreement, but then refuses to restore the sovereignty until until they undermine the agreement post centralizing power. so furthermore, they were supposed to have this power is victoria. ours are 2 to 3 years instead has been more than a quarter of a century so. so, so this is why it was always a fragile state because initially in the war the service want to both of the state . if that didn't work, they would like to serve in the region, start to see them be able to stay in yugoslavia and then they got their 3rd option

which was ok will be in the home, isn't the session is most now, but now they can't even have this so they're essentially threatening to ignore the someone colonial power and even break away unless you stop undermining the agreement, which the claims it's trying to hold. so obviously most goes away and it's the mounting wanted scolding effectively. use colonial mentality in this whole project . so it's a big question, what can be done at this point? i mean, you can only use the search and the russians have undermining the agreement, but they're the main ones refusing to implement that. so it's, it's a very weird conflict to have, especially for the european so you can charge that. you can't really bother not trying to just keep trying doing the problem things because the very predicate is, is something that can come to fruition because you have a chunk of the population that doesn't want to agree to this colonial mindset. and of course, it's better than rush. oh my god,

run to the hills. i hear that every single time. you know, it's always looking for an external excuse for their own mistakes. go ahead your yes. yes. yeah, that's right. but of course a glenn points out. i mean, you and they, so how push for bosnia herzegovina to be a member of nato and in order to be a member of nato, they wanted to create a centralized government and a unify as well. that was always a non stop that because the reason why there was a war in bosnia in the 1990 is precisely because they wouldn't accept a unified centralized warranty, which was always liked it to be dominated by the bosnian muslims. and so by pushing for this, there was always likely to trigger a reaction for so i think what immediately precipitated this current crisis was the

a hi representative of some suddenly amending the criminal code and making it a crime punishable by prison. genocide, denial, which is essentially a code for you know, whatever the, so think about their performance in the war. so a said, well, you know why, why do we want to be part of a state that is inherently hostile to us? and i think that, you know, now with all the threats that are coming, you know, how dare you. busy violate the data on the course, but of course the data was never provided for a unified army. i mean, you know, you go through the date because where does it say that the governor should have a single army? this is all invented off to the fact of the data and of course the media on hand to fuel the conflict by saying, oh, the subs are violating that they can of course,

that they're really on the, you know, nate. so essentially there's, we just push for this, which is violating the nature of the goals. so they're just, they're just making up the rules of the game as they go off. is that what you're saying? yeah, exactly. you know, like, i mean this, the service of, you know, they, they want to call it quits. why doesn't the international community let them do that? i mean i, as far as i understand they don't have any terry, totally ambitions over anyone. they just want to get out of a bad deal that they were forced into, into a failed state. it wouldn't exist if it wasn't pumped through of full of money from outside international organizations. i mean, it's also everyone, one of the most corrupt places in the world, go ahead when. well, this is the problem because usually when there's a dispute, we can look towards international law in principles. but again, there are no rules and source of legitimacy in our keep in mind that you

know, the breakup of the stores mentioned was large and to large extent driven by external powers as well. and when did choose between the principal of sovereign and their total integrity and then the self determination of a people, you know, they conflict. it's always, it depends. i mean if you're most you should be allowed to see it from, you know, from yugoslavia. but if you are the service territory you're not allowed to remain in yugoslavia, customer should be allowed to see from, from them from serbia, but northern northern call. so should not be allowed to stay. crimea should be allowed, should come up to see it all depends on power interest, time. and that's the problem. if there are no uniform rules, it always goes back to power politics and has begun to say the distribution of power is very different now than it was in the 90 my guess. overall, it's a very similar to conflict problem in ukraine and both actually because with this

idea, logical format for what to call your integration. and it's kind of the only way for it to work. if you make a north eastern ukrainians or at least call them, you know, russian agents or we ignore the service impulse now by simply calling them you know, nationalists, the naval. so there is the head. it had been like this. i think it wasn't going to work. yeah, i mean, george, you can finish it out here. i mean, it's the golden rule, those that have the gold make the rules right. that, but it doesn't look like ok. yeah. that's right. what's it by common to all of this? is that nato and the western powers in favor. so session, when it works to their advantage, why don't they want the well above the sea from boston? well, because that would strengthen the sobs in europe, and that will strengthen russia, which was always the goal. why?

why that was so keen on breaking up. you love it. so you this lobby as russia is little brother in europe. so that's why you always be attended to across any of aspirations. because for russia, the principal's their goal at the end of the day, we cover 2 major topics to ukraine and serbia and. and as far as the west concerns, they don't care about either as long as it's only a defeat for russia that's is their money. it's very colonial, isn't it? i gentlemen, that's all the time we have on, i think, my guess in budapest and in the us on, i think our viewers are watching us here in our t. c. and it's, i'm remember across the room inviting shaped banks centers in

a there's things we dare to ask in oh, is your media reflection of reality in the world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation for community. are you going the right way, or you being led to some? well direct. what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted. you need to descend,

have join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah ah, they suck it on thing. are you? oh no, no, no, but they did in a valuable mm hm. nothing happening. my mirror now. i own the heat up my lap and i have a clinical my la bob again thought now along a bit a well, i mean a relationship with sonia here long. i can get that and

ah ah, this ours headline stories, the russian president and indian prime minister rock ball top level talks in new delhi just the day before vladimir putin supplant video conference with joe biden. the kremlin spokesman, who's in india with president putin slums, nato's aggressive stance on moscow. dmitri pet scoff, spoke exclusively to our t movie jims on that. now we see that native demonstrates its extremely aggressive positions. we see business goldenberg's rhetoric that we see that different usb does rhetoric we don't like that and we do everything to ensure. oh, interesting.