military compensation is returning on this edition of the program. we examined the significance of both statements. ah, i ah, i'm african return senior watching a special edition of going underground on this day 156 years ago. the end of legal slavery was ratified by the u. s. congress through the 13th amendment. however, the global power and economic system remains shackle to a racist colonial logic. axiomatic linked to the so called enlightenment which fostered genocide. so argues professor king and andrew's author of the new age of

empire. now racism and colonialism still rule the world. he joins me now from the infamous slave town of birmingham in england. thank you so much. a professor andrews for coming on the show. before i get to how you begin this book with the amazement of a b, b, c. news night presenter emily make lists of famous from injuries into being prince . andrew actually are amazement about what you said about the unlike with i better just ask you quickly about barbados with j. u. you delineate the genocide there of the callan argo people in this new book that you say. her majesty may be the premier symbol of whiteness on the planet. barbados, of course, was just became a republic. why obviously you buy basically independent reward, 50 years, almost. and the idea that you still get this, this queen, this is the primary simpler way, supremacy in the world, right? the british empire, those links and what that means to a place like barbados, which was britain's 1st laid colony. i really think just not really news it should

have been a long time ago. the real question is why, why do we still have the cleaners out of state a place like jamaica in my family's from of the commonwealth? i mean, is this just a bad time of this that this money? he was removed from countries like barbados. i would say all the and of course prince charles the to the throne did acknowledge the argument. some of the arguments in this book is so, so are we acknowledged use is a nice way to put it, i guess. but i mean, even if any of the prince charles was there, i mean, i think sometimes we may need is good that barbados will get rid of the queen as an estate. does that mean that barbados is, is a fully independent country that can run its own economy that isn't in the clause of the west? absolutely not. this is invalid change. and, but it doesn't mean necessarily that much a meaningful jake, unfortunately. okay, now to how you begin this book, which will appall all the jacket bins watching this program. i'd suggest you, you talk about emanuel can't a, as an architect of racist philosophy. the he was use of the justification for

colonial genocides that preceded him and went on after and go on to say, you can say similar things about voltaire. hey, go right up to darwin right up to canes. and his attitude about the i m f being able to be used in case monkey house was created in former colonies. what have you got against the enlightenment alignment is just white supremacy with good p r? i mean, the very idea, the notion that you, that knowledge spread out of europe in the 18th century and it lightens the rest of the world, tells you that he is completely p r. this is not true, is completely false. and actually the, the knowledge we get from the enlightenment is one which is the knowledge of white supremacy. so someone like emmanuel can, for example, there is the intellectual philosopher for our current framework, a human right? well it just erased this with somebody. you actually invited slave owners in

america have best to be african because he actually generally fundamentally believe that i was not a human being because of my blood that i couldn't pro ration entity because of my blood. and that he was better, superior could understand the world in a bit more reasonable way because he's white in that's what people were talking about when we're defending the unlike. and, and you mentioned there are definition of human rights. we often talk about the human rights industry on this program. you can see echoes of the racism that you've identified in the circle of enlightenment in the u. n. convention on rights of the child. yeah, cause has one is cancer, one manual can so important because at the end of his life, he comes to the conclusion of slavery. bad colonialism bad and create this universe writes for him. when will he still have? and he doesn't think we're human being great. other thing, we're still fully deserving of the full right. will we get the right to life in a very similar ways? i would say you shouldn't poach guerrillas. i don't think guerrillas human being

just on the ship out and kill them. and that's effectively what he says is human rights for a member to the right to life. doesn't you the right to equality? doesn't you the right to prosperity doesn't give you the right to have all your stuff that has been stolen from you, given back to you in reparations. and so when we have a world today, which is the poorest father world being so called sub saharan africa, where black blue, the rigid father will be where the white will, if the west and everyone else in between and in, you only have the right to life and not the right to prosperity. and then this is telling you that actually frozen in time and in history, the, the, the colonial logic in the colonial root. and that, that universal supposedly universal right framework is key to that. because it only gives you the right to live in the right to anything you say that the enlightenment, racism had to wait for the defeat of islam in spain before conquering the united states. but also that very many parts of this enlightenment come from an there on service center to china. here with this is the problem with the like

a minute. it takes the day to the 18th century to have this, this conceit that europe is the best. because of 200 years of violence, right? 1492 unleashes the genocide in human history. where 60 to 70000000 people arrays in the face of the of to conquer the americas. that the entry of slavery again, massively unparalleled abuses. a few of still those human rights, although he was seen to be human at the time. and the wealth is generated from there and then creates this illusion that europe is superior. and so the enlightenment are actually drawing on 9, i think because we're drawing on african knowledge, arabic knowledge, chinese knowledge. but it actually been whitewashed, like literally whitewashed. so when they take or when is when the spanish defeat the moors, they start burning books with always arabic knowledge in and they, they but before they burn them, they translate them into latin and changing the name. so it's generally possible that the alarm, i think, actually through all knowledge came from europe because that was what they were

really right. that was what they were told. so it is this whole myth of whiteness of supremacy that is only possible because of those centuries of colonial violence which allows that intellectual conceit to exist. yeah, i'll get to some of the other myths that you try and destroy in the book in a 2nd. but as i said about the jack of bins watching, i mean you quote malcolm x quite a few times in this book. do not think that in some ways this enlightenment thinking can be used against the powers that are continuing to oppress people around the world. you don't think malcolm x che guevara karl marx graham. she use some of these things against the very powers that you criticize in the book. is you see that people have used me because obviously declaration of like the rights of man, the un charter, a malcolm. my absolute favorite using all the documents and when he family organization, there are american unity and said that we want the west to live up to its to value . the problem with, in those documents we are, we are not human,

not seem to be human being, which is why you can have a constitutional united states, as is all men are created equal and is a bunch of slave owners, right? because they don't see as being human that are following use those documents is that they are, they are limited because they within them they say they keep us fixed in the state of nature. to redo the u. s. so you mentioned the start, the 156 years is the in abilene later. but in the 13th amendment, that's the 13th amendment, that gives us the mass incarceration the 156 years later that you can still keep slavery in the incarcerated system. and what do they do? they, how it goes through a lot, a lot of level so that they can keep them in a state of labor. so actually within those constitutional documents, you still have the router ratings. i would say, throw those away. if you want a document that gives you rights and humanity and equality is the keisha revolution . yeah. to only real revolution of the, to any of the 900 century where they have a document was declared right for rights for not just white people or people. that's a document i'd say is

a much more secure i to write for him. what do you think of the fact that when you use these figures killed factor by, by the enlightenment, you somehow diminish the holocaust, which has been a constant refrain by some voices in the international community. so called an a db. you talk about the curious way that a hallmark of western development, the essential ingredient may be genocide, but intent to say the twisted logic of western scholarship intent to must be seen as the vital ingredient of a genocide if the holocaust is mentally employed like this, the hugely important turning point in terms of understanding race actually really important, particularly in europe and the weight in the standards just bad like it is really the wrong way to understand. and i borrow here from sigma bowman who wrote a book maternity and holocaust or isn't the way that we typically understand, of course, is that he was his evil people. it was anti western, the not is

a terrible, they're the bad guys. and they did this terrible thing and we should never forget it. and measure them happens again. and the argument he makes is actually completely opposite. the article is could only have existed within western within, it literally couldn't resist it anyway. how would you kill that? many people that decided to do it in the 1st place. and if you think about what it is, the ends of it started genocide. it is the concept of race, right? juniors become, not so human, not people. when those ideas convert those ideas from colonialism when they come from slavery. and we talk about the genocide in the article is what we don't connected to the genocide that job. the germans carried it in the media, which is the 4 runner to this is where they get all the ideas from the idea of the racial science, the ideas of mass, mass killing, etc. so if you could actually put the whole, of course in historical perspective, is it should be seen as on the same continuum as genocide in american slavery multiple genocide in africa. they have the idea that the west would kill lots and lots of people in not a new thing. the only new thing about the article was it was white and it was in

europe. it was a boomerang effect coming home. so it's not an aberration. the, the article is to produce power by the west, by racism. and if we understand in that way that we have a much better understanding of where we are and where we are, who are we invite all as un a human rights industry, people on the program to explain why certain cases like namibia are not considered historically genocide, you, you mentioned the holocaust, which of course is industrialized killing in the book. you say you were taught complete propaganda about the industrial revolution here in britain, in school. we're talking about it immaculate conception in british history of entrepreneurship and industrialization of tell you about that. i went to a story where i actually got email from my old teacher at school. we have told a story like of where i was in a little history do in industrial evolution causes of the industrial revolution. and i think he's go to the same. i've been to a number of schools recently, and it is low, immaculate conception, why people are great, all the science price and work ethic center. and i asked the teacher in the class,

what about slavery? in this point, i didn't really know that is new slavery with the same time, so it felt like it probably related. and his response was it is 9, the textbook is level never talk about ever again. and i was just never, never spoken back because with one of the central this we have, and i'm from birmingham in birmingham industrial revolution. james, what they're saying here. it's a place where we have is progressive mix that with great and wonderful. but actually, even just revolution is completely and utterly impossible that the genocide in america and with slavery because the key commodity gold, silver, tobacco got an order of what they call the atlantic city, which is america's in the caribbean. order them and produce it. and if that's what is the spot, the industry, the spot for? well, spot for the growth is not just per store. liverpool, london, also manchester man just only becomes a major city after they connected to

a canal clinical when you are for the major label as well. so when we think about discrimination, we don't think about slavery, we simply don't understand the industrial engine properly. so why is this cancelled as it were? i mean, your book is so culture has in this seems to be cancelled from people's education. this is about politicians. it's about universities, i mean, i work in, we think about the place where these ideas come from these places, which i got really working. what universities is about the textbook, it is about $250.00. it is about media, it is about and these, these are necessary because if you, we understand that the wealth that we have today today in the past, in bill, on the, not just a scar, a qu, killing to people, but the current date and the logic has not changed, right? the conditions in africa. we couldn't even understand most of the condition that most people live in live in africa. most of the world actually live in condition

that we have no experience of right. one of the style effects that i came across in the book was born in somalia today as more chance of dying before their birthday and the soldier had of dying in the vietnam war. i mean that the conditions we're talking about. so if we were to accept that we have all these for 30 because children die by the 2nd issue would have to in the whole thing, right? so the system depends on that same colonial logic. and so we have to pretend we have to cancel, we have to miss out on the keep us comfortable cuz otherwise you'd have to change the progress again address. i'll stop you there. more on the new age of empire. after the break what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation,

let it be an arms race is on offense. very dramatic development. only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical time time to sit down and talk this up, it now you think you all know what they did in a valuable mm hm. that's been happening by high middle now. i on my head up my lap and i had a knuckle blackland. my love bob didn't thought now. well, i'm happy to be a well, i mean a relationship with sonia midlothian. and

welcome back. i'm still here with professor kinda andrew's author of the new age of empire, a, racism, and colonialism still rule the world. so again, the international monetary fund and world bank you single out of as present seen as a reform character. joseph stieglitz, so used to run the world bank and other figures, actually, steven pinker, others as being more of the same. oh, well de facto apologists for racist enlightenment policy, how to presumably that that's what you're talking about when talking about developing countries because of loans in light am and 2 point oh right let's i guess what i call in the book lane is there is this idea that the west can be the

solution, right? and we have this whole industry in the development industry is, is the perfect one where there is some of these changes are in nowadays they don't necessarily talk about evolutionary letters because it used to talk about very clearly. like there's a process, countries go for and they can become like the west if you just follow these out. but the reality is that the west can be the solution to this problem because the west is the cause of the problem. why? why is that? why does the child mortality rate so high in somali? explain that we have history and the present. when comes, when organizations like i, american particular gave all the countries, all the evidence is this bed of her countries is not good for the good. is there really good? um, so what's happening in this is there's an intervention in the economy, but it's actually making things worse in those countries. and one of the things we complain about a lot here is austerity privatization, neoliberalism when that's what they were due to. and africa, asia, south america, the last 50 years, the keep them in debt to keep them locked down and keep the keep them poor. so actually with i am, if well bang you,

in all of these usa view aid that they are the new mechanisms of western impurity key, blacken branby poor. so that way people can be rich, you would have supported deborah johnson's initial decision to cut got the 8 clearly. i know why is it no good, but this is the meeting, the buying you get into right? because you need that because because it's so bad, you kind of need a raise or coin aid isn't isn't a solution. 8 was going with diary. yeah. but that aid was going on. 2 things that you criticize in the book. let me give you the, or another jakob in enlightenment, a piece of where you are in the book. actually, it's not just the i m f. it is the new class and actual on of people of color that are created in these developing countries that carry out the colonial enterprise totally. and it's not a new thing either. one of the things we missed sometimes is the lifetime bridge. by, for example, the largest empire that ever existed, mean,

hundreds of millions of people, slavery is only terrible. debt could not have existed. countless black and brand people managing and administering input, couldn't, wouldn't it be possible? always be when you set up a system of racism or oppression as well, you know, the people who take the best option they can for themselves and help to administer . so india and a great example at the high in the gym by the british army in india, it was mostly indian people. so somebody lined the amorous massacre, which was just recently where the army, this winning killed like civilian children. many of those soldiers, what they would see wouldn't the empire race slavery, whenever possible. those people who are black and bran collaborating. so today when we see the same thing happening and we see countries like china with china just become baby, doesn't matter the west fairly se, logics. when you see the corrupt leaders in africa lead that when you see the

policies of like we have enough to follow. but right now, government right now, it's not an easy enough to be surprised about. we're going to get to them because quite quiet things mean on this show. we shouldn't be overly impressed. black and brown people in the worst johnson cabinet will come on. harris in the way this is going to be today, denied me, did i just said, please feel to do the queen and they baby permitted and it can be in a black dory. probably not because it has policies which are against those are what you tend to have, what's happening nowadays. and in the states, you know, different is there's actually the real identity politics in getting black and brown people to say and do things with people. right. and that's that, but again, that's not new that's been going on for a long time. was things just go straight from all the way from our center, right? through the enlightenment, to a tweet by the treasury. here you say,

what's wrong with the treasury tweeting? did you know that in 8033 britain use 20000000 of his national budget to buy freedom for all or all slaves of the empire? and that in a sense we have citizens now who are paying a recompense for the slave trade was wrong with the u. k. treasury, bank of england doing that. i mean, talk about a guy next book of an era psychosis of white book about delusions. i mean that tweet was a celebrated retweet from the attorneys. are you thinking about this gray on the taxpayer? how do bonnie slavery in it made me feel bad to not me, my nan, a lot of my family to send it on, the slaves have been paying back. slave owner compensation in our tax. is that even if you are quite mad and many people felt quite quite offended by that, which brings us to the things we think of progress aren't really progress. so hillary beckles that henry beckles who are university of the west indies talked about the abolition act in 18. $33.00 as being one of the most racist species of policy this ever put forward for british parliament even though abolished labor.

and that's for 2 reasons. one is that massive payment to slave slave owners, so they actually bailed out slave on. and it is often the figures that $20000000.00 pound, which is often often quoted to $17000000000.00 equivalent was actually 5 percent of g d p at the time, which would today be a $100000000000.00 man is a huge payment. it was 40 percent of the british government's income, which is why the loan take so long to pay back regulate. it was so such a huge favorite. but on top of that, he wasn't just that ridiculous, maybe to the slave on. there was also a period of apprenticeship for 4 years, so slavery doesn't actually end up to $8038.00, even though it's abolish in 8th grade 3 and comes learning a 4 or 4 years. formerly a slave had to work essentially a slave, the 75 percent of their time, so they could learn to be free. but he's like that and he bought a net that amount of free labor is actually actually to be more than a $100000000000.00. that was given to this label. i mean it talk to me, look about not progress at all. that's a perfect example of how,

what we think is progress. actually, just the cement the racism include neurologic into the world and not just in the past. you can, you can see those legacies happening in terms of poverty. and you as a wealth the day as well. yeah, but you make a point there that i mean, in the context of barbados, we've heard one to go mainstream media, the terms reparation used a very, very rarely you hear them. you're talking about sums of money that would bankrupt the united states and britain completely. if they had to pay reparations to their former colonies, surely and, and former countries where they took slaves through the regular river. there's no good argument against reparations. if you think about a country banker, the owner is the only one right? this the only, the only actual good area is that we just don't have the what it is actually impossible to calculate in america, the calculation anywhere between $4.80 trillion, sorry, and in the caribbean, somewhere like 9 trillions all and take just a, that's the slavery, india, regular 9 tree in india, i get you actually added up all this money. it is far too much of a back,

which is why you should, we should use reparations to understand that we actually the new system, let me economic system just dummy and even even if you could lesser megan. you could be back for a 2nd. and if the asia, africa were as, as rich as the west, capitalism would en literally in tomorrow, is only because you can still resort from the african continent. the nothing is only because you can say you can get swish of labor in china and india for nothing that this economy function. so even if you could possibly were and you did make the will equally, how would economics is that would collapse? this should be reminded that we need a new political and economic system and iran, reparations, that can be paid to fix that problem. what do you say? do? i suppose it would be upper class africans, maybe that even if they tried to carry out the am the kind of policies that come from the ideas in this book. what happened to come in a coma in ghana? what happened to cabral and guinea?

what happened to remember in congo, they all know what happened to the leaders that carry out policies that try to make africa a farrah and better place. this is where you knew the universe where they all die. they're killed, i put you in. but this is where we need to proper universalist framework. and the 3rd world movement is that universalist language writer says, you can't, one country can't do it. does that have been probably fine. even haiti, i mentioned 80 before. 80 has revolution gets you to slavery, but he's surrounded by all these latent colonies or colonies in america, and is for that reason, one of the poorest countries in the world today. in creamer one country and gone, you can do, you can only do it when you have unity across at least africa and across the, the, for the 3rd world of free with that kind of idea. that's a pretty dangerous fact. so these are daily, but we'll need dangerous ideas to the dangerous times. one thing i always remind people is we forget how the condition bad. the conditions are. a child dies every

10 seconds. is emily access to food or water? most people in the world do not live in bare conditions today, then they would have lived on it years ago. it's already too late. i mean, that doesn't, that we're saying it's malcolm x book. it is already too late. we need dangerous ideas and cadbury and all these different companies do charity. what are you talking about? they only do general deck, but they can only do gerry because this dealing body for the country. so for example, week every error from birmingham. so i go to cab to cab or a number of times. it is the perfect example of colonialism. i mean, they listen to steel that resource of the grand and got it phenomena, god 8 it to birmingham making to establish products and make millions of ed and, and give some of that money back in philanthropy. well can, there you go, have to say they do everything they can for the welfare of error was and they have improved their environmental impact. i b very, very seriously. you talk about the book in the book that the is,

is the fear of revolution. maybe an enlightenment, that is the chief motivator of elite, whether be the national health service, whether we anything, what do you mean by it is that fear of revolution that has been the motivator of every bit of progress we've ever had. if you think about it, why do we get the, the idea of social democracy and the, you know, the, the welfare state is all you know, as low as 3 really bad after the 2nd law to any one. but a fair comedy there is a genuine of communism. the rather that you got, he's got rushing you, but right people are rising and they have to give things over. if you read the comments manifest of mac, a list of things he wants about off of them, right? because there's a confession to power. we are terrified of companies, lucian. therefore, we will give you education will give you some benefits or give you housing. if interested you keep you calm. same way and you get independent from the court. when you have people take arms,

they could revolutionary and say and then so the queen will come and say ok, we will leave you alone will give will give you this appearance of a freedom. so this is why i was so stuck in that. let me think about what happened there, where i always argue in a word position now. and we were 50 years ago. we kind of go into these. i be, there's no, there are no revolutionary movements anymore, which is why and the liberalism is creeped increased increasingly across the world . the only way to push that back is to have the feeling revolution, revolution ways lisa, confessions and that's why organization that, because we don't have no revolutionary policy. so anything we need to do, the number one thing we need to do, if you want me to change, it's a bring that, that revolution to make it something that may fairly scared. and i guarantee you, that's when you start to see the changes. progress again, address. thank you. a key that's over the show will be back home wednesday 34. yes, of the day of the beginning of the 1st palestinian intifada when at least 1000 palestinians were killed by nature, nation armed israel until then keep in touch,

my social media. let us know if you think revolution is the only way to stop continuing imperialism. ah, with progress driven by dreams shaped banks concur some of those with airs sinks. we dare to ask

a russian president and indian prime minister wrap up the top level talks to new delhi just today before vladimir putin is planned video conference with joe biden. the kremlin spokesperson, who is in india with president gluten slams nato's aggressive stance on moscow. meet your past golf spoke exclusively with our t movie. numerous times now we see that legal demonstrations extremely aggressive positions. she missed the stolen bugs, rhetoric. we see that many different usb does rhetoric, we don't like that we do everything to ensure. oh, interesting with that's the message from press.