ah, i'm asher is anthony, what's going on the run 57 years of the day, the che guevara addressed. the united nations coming up in the show is u. s. president joe biden playing chicken in kiev hours after abide and self styled democracy summit condemned in china. and in the week of the putin biden's summit. what chances of nuclear war we don't do, you know, we don't rule out 1st use nuclear action, and apocalypse again or doomsday delayed as us politicians argue for nuclear strikes on russia. we explore why and times a predicted time and time again, and who see all of them all coming up in today's going underground at 1st 57 years ago today, che guevara addressed the un general assembly during the height of the so called cold war. and this week vladimir putin and joe biden, arguably try to avoid nuclear war in

a private virtual summit between the 2 supervisors. and these are nation media predictably centered on ukraine rather than the legacy of failed was in iraq, afghanistan, syria, and libya. joining me now from canterbury is kent university professor of russian and european politics and the author of the pigeon paradox. professor richard sackler, thank you so much. sure. profess faqua for coming back on. we're actually talking about armageddon and bought 2 of this show biden. i just finishes democracy, summit selected democrats being invited to to are a virtual. as summit you said last time you were on going underground. that biden would be it exceptionally dangerous leader endorsed by the washington security establishment. you said aside from him sending the 7th fleet, i think it is to china along with the british washer being sent there. are we see the 6 fleet in the black sea right now? what do you think about in the context of russia imminently about to invade ukraine?

what do you think of the virtual puting bike and some of this week? well, when we last spoke, i think we were anticipating what the biden currency was going to look like. and it's only days what is actually happened since it's now coming to the end of his 1st year in office and what's emerged is that even though he's, you know, a long time individual dealing with a foreign affairs at income u. s. u. s. congress and vice president. he's turned out to be a bit of a more mixed picture. it says, what's important is that he has engaged with putting in with russia twice. there was the june 20, the summit in geneva, which was important for establishing work. 2 things, an arms control process and either some sort of framework for managing cyber conflict. and of course, the virtual summit this week. so it's,

it's important that he's actually talking. i think the big picture is, is that the idea was that they would stabilize the relations with russia and then focus on the conflict with china. you mentioned to, interestingly, just not you talked about 57 years ago. the so called code war. it was not, it was not a so called it was the cold war and i meant to call because it was hot for many of the developing world in the class. so in that sense, absolutely. in that sense, it was pretty hot in all sorts of places that goes to vietnam war except, you know, but it was ultimately a cold war in that the major powers did not come into to get confrontation. i argue that that was indeed code or one. and that were now in cold war 2, because of the unsolved unresolved issues at the end of the 1st congo as to

98991. and of course, that's how we need to understand the ukraine crisis today in that context. because sir, no inclusive equitable piece order was established after 1991 and instead of which the atlantic power system nato. and of course the european union both advanced and in the sense it wasn't so much the enlargement of these 2 organizations. it is the way it was done, which has established a negative security dilemma, or let's put it this way and intensifying security dilemma. and richie russia feels more and more challenged. and this is what the crisis over you going today is all about. well, as you know from a more hawkish, i think tanks here in london, that alone across the pond in the united states, they probably reject that kind of analysis. after all, what we have here is a question of what

a 120000 of hooton's troops are on the border with that ukraine. we talked last time of the script. paul's, we talk about human rights abuses in russia and good in russia. are we talking about them at what rusher is exerting as a malign influence around the world? the occupation of crimea, as is constantly a constant reminder on a donation media. you so you don't see it as a even or do you see it as part of cold war 2 that we should have where these one us politicians are to roger wicker, 2nd highest ranking, republican, the on the on services committee and congress saying that we mustn't rule out the 1st use a 1st use nuclear strike on russia. and obviously britain is a nuclear power as well. so that's 2 nuclear power versus moscow. well engaged. this is just that sort of our crazy talk is just a sign of just how weird and again,

just the 2nd cold war is because i don't think you'd have had many people talking in fact, loose and wild manner in cold war one, which was a more disciplined conflict, a more cry, a more straightforward one, communism versus capitalism, 2 blocks power to power blocks. it seemed to be so much simpler, almost naive in those days. the 2nd cold war, you're absolutely right, that, you know, defenders of nato enlargement will argue that it's benign and that there is nothing . there's nothing for russia to be concerned about. now, you know, i've always sat suggested that it is that a valid argument is absent, no reason why at nato could not have enlarged. but the point was that ultimately there had to be a way in which the enlargement dealt with the russia security question. now it's not a question of pretend it's not a question or whoever comes after him because it also concerned who came before him . yeltsin and measured it. and of course whoever comes off to head, it's a finding

a sorry to interrupt them. there's no written evidence that james baker gave an undertaking to the russians, that nato would not expand eastwards as a there is pint yogurt and evidence that base against guy another. national archives material show not only james baker on, in february 1990, but a dozen western leaders said the same thing. plenty of documentary evidence in the memoirs. and in the minutes of those meetings, there was no tracy of course. so that in that sense, no, it was not formally made as a political so plenty of written evidence, no substantive negotiated a strategic era in the whole history of states. since of all of the roman empire committee by russia. and hasn't putin committing yet another mistake, allowing him to get to the stage where he's worried about the russian rushes biggest naval base and the poring over weston arms and,

and troops? i mean, i don't know why they're on the us. national guard troops from california are already in ukraine, british troops, apparently on stand by to send $600.00 special forces. how to put and get into a position like this, forgetting the errors made by go, but you haven't yeltsin. yes indeed. i'm included, just stand off at the moment, is, you know, on the one side you could argue in some people have argued, it's as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis. and october 1962. i don't think it's quite at that level. but what it does show is that to, you know, the for, this is the 2nd time this year that has been this military builder. gotcha. of course you mentioned one figure. we don't know what the figures are. they seem to vary between 70000 and a 120, if not 850000, but certainly to our forces along the border. it was saying that we're hearing daily in a donation. meteor about numbers of troops and munitions and the pas personnel and

the material. yes, i mean these numbers, as you say, keep changing and then to get the whole issue began in washington at 1st the in the, you know, the how you can, you know, for the care of leadership. i'm dismissed at an event that now joined it. you know, i'm talking about a few weeks ago. it's a very interesting, i'm going to say one word about this of us to pull base. it isn't just a question of nato enlargement, of course, because even nato enlargement was off the agenda at the time of the obama presidency. yet, we're talking about the fact that the u. s. forces will be, as it were, de facto part of it will be advancing into you again already. this is putting, made this point in his bow, our speech in october. and of course, he's not the only one to pointed out that nato enlargement is only one part of the advancement of an atlantic power system which excludes russia. so as i say,

you know, what's happening now is that, gosh, as pushing back in his state of the nation speech earlier this year, putting argue this was an april, he took that red lines. and so what's happening there is quite clearly the ukrainian crisis is an impasse and that, and this is why i'm to say it was positive that in the bye didn't put in virtual meeting earlier this week that this was talked about and said no red lines, biden will not accept and he will be redlands, they won't exactly is guidelines putin, whether they accept them or not. they're awesome. and the question is that, what does the russia do about it? you know, i don't think, i mean, clearly invasion talk i think as well talk as gotcha is not planning to invade. in part, this was a preemptive move in case i was going to be push against on bass. but even that was unlikely. but what we're now seeing is an attempt to,

if you like to cut the ukrainian gordian knot, that in minsk, that the game and on the status of don bass is not going to be implemented. then let's find a way of trying to deal with this issue so that we don't get into this question again. women's hasn't mentioned much or nater nation media. i don't know about whether leaders like by blue bars. johnson nato lead is a pressured by the military industrial complex. people are making money out of all of this goes the arms and i make is, but i don't know whether, as lensky is under pressure from the hard. right, right. sector, neo nazis. and this is in key i've, i better just quickly go to this threat of economic warfare, which certainly as seems much more in horizon than in a nuclear strike. what can the russia do? i mean, what will it do? team up more with china, if it's a firm, western authorities stop the swifter banking transfer scheme whereby all businesses are able to trade money and send money abroad. what, what is putin to do isn't as

a massive own goal for sending in all these troops to the border, rather than actually a vic, jeff uprooting and getting back to the table virtual table. well, all these are, all these moves are threatened if russia invades, but since russia has no intention of invading, unless, of course, you can move 1st, then these measures are hopefully won't take place. and of course, in addition to the list you've mentioned, there's nordstrom to that already it's being sanctioned, even without an invasion. it's been delayed by several years. and even now it's, you know, they, they will, i mean, jump the idea of defending yourself by cutting off your own gas supplies. what do you think? you don't think the new chancellor sholtes we'll, we'll, we'll just be roll over to the united states and stop energy security for germany and western europe. yeah, well, this is, in addition, 6 in stopping. it was increasing energy security date by and showing more direct

supplies and of course supply some yamaha, which of course is far to the north of the ukrainian plank system. so yes, well indeed, they knew german government has been signed in the 2nd week of december. this year, so we'll have to see because the chancellor schoultz, i would imagine we'll want to continue the pipeline. but don't forget his foreign minister is that the lee one of the code ages of the kings who in the past has spoken against it. could of course interface, and this was an issue carefully avoided in in them over a 100 pages of the coalition agreement. but yeah, it's an important issue. obviously, the big question is, why is united states so concerned about european energy security? when, when would have thought europeans could handle that issue themselves? from his richardson. thank you. and care after the break nuclear war play climate disaster is judgment day approaching or hasn't been misjudged again. we examined

the history of the end of the world. all the more coming up about to have going underground ah, scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. can we distinguish the real science from the one being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence, and discrediting even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. large corporations are challenged strongly by scientific evidence if you're emotionally invested and free markets, them climate change is a serious emotional threat because dealing with that means we have to change our

approach to business industries or on the war bar, attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science writing science. that's how ignorant says manufactured their attention. only seeking to be rail science, rowing using sy itself to submit my young being a you all dominant, but they did a valuable. mm hm. not that big, my middle. now i own my here up my lap on that hill of that i had a nickel, pamela, but you can thought no along after a bit a well, i'm really happy correlation. suburban young,

it's sonya gotten data and welcome back 24 years ago today. kyoto protocols were signed in an attempt to prevent climate catastrophe. it could be argued that continuing time crisis represents just one of the 4th horsemen of the apocalypse, of the bearing down on the 20th century, alongside nuclear war. a global pandemic and famines created by new liberal policies. what better time for the end times again, 2000 years of the use and misuse of biblical prophecy? the new book by martin whittaker, who joins me now for both in england. thank you so much, martin for coming back on. you know, we have a new german chancellor of sholtes, a huge influence on the european union, and you better begin like you begin in the book about dissuading us of the you. parliament is not modeled on the tower of babel and there is no missing seat 666 dead or it's deliberately kept empty and the european parliament in strasburg. yes

. yes. i can. i can reassure you about that. i was what astonished in 2016 when i was part of organizing a meeting at west country time and looking at the algorithms for and against membership of the you. and we got in the end some extraordinary debates about people making accusations about. it was much christian churches, i don't see many people are talking about economics and, and the politics of it. and so some people that were, were very impassioned about the fact that the european union, they thought represented. and you form of the 4th kingdom of daniel and reflect the things in revelation. and there was this, this, this disk accusations that, that align the seat 666 is katrina ready for the anti christ. i was astonished by this. and many other people. i was with astonished, but i shouldn't have been astonished because i have a back story in this. i was a kid on the 970. i read the american books like late, great kind of earth by how lindsey and others. and i was very much into this in the

19 seventies and felt that i was living very much in the end times. we may yet be doing the end time. i'm done. okay. convinced that within the christian church, this is very often a problematic area. because although it's a core belief, the problem comes when people assure they are in the end lines and start interesting events as being due to biblical prophecy being fulfilled. and they will be right in some cases. but in other cases, they can be woefully wrong. that's 2000 years of history shown. so i was, i was shocked to that meeting. i wrote this book party as a way to call to people to just be cautious in how they approach the core area of christian belief. well, i mean there are plenty of you is out there who probably think we are in, in times and probably do think the european union is a satanic. i don't know, a more serious the as we approached, i christmas looking to the holy land bethlehem. you contend that trump's decision to move the u. s. embassy to jerusalem,

amidst all the ongoing violence or because we've had or if violence in may this a year at the support res, rails, occupation of serious golan heights. this is, this is not for you for a united states or jewish people. it is for the even jellicoe people that's what that's all about us is really a big jump on the record of saying that his, his support in these areas does not come from american jewish believers. but they come from members of what we might turn the evangelical, right. i evangelicals within the u. s. a who see israel as a fulfillment of prophecy. and therefore, see what can sometimes amount to unquestioning support for, for actions by as early as radio administrations as being in line with that support for prophecy. and it is quite clear that when trump moved the embassy, i'm not support full as a santee over the golan heights. he was not,

he was not appealing to american jews. he was appealing to you as evangelicals who, of course, as we know, st. something lighten, 53000000, voted for him. 81 percent wife. and y'all close out for him. but in 2016 and in 2020. so he was appealing to a core base there who basically view middle eastern politics you through and what you might call an eschatological lens. and clearly see trump for is for some filings as delivering in this area. so this, this is the logical position has concern quite extraordinary impacts on modern geo politics. yeah. who you cite the wasn't both quoted based about 33000000 is believe in the creation of the state of israel and 48 did presage the 2nd coming of of christ. but if it is to trump, who are going to that citation met, that he kind of knew, this is to for electoral reasons, jump and biden, their support of israel. i mean,

just the other day this week or the talk here in syria, the resort town was bombed by israel in fans to aesthete as they come in a long line of leaders around the world. in history charlemagne use a pope herb and the 2nd frederick the 2nd. who used the apocalypse. yes, indeed. basically within christianity, as in it, as within islam, there is a belief in the end times for the 2nd coming of christ, the coming of isa in islam. but obviously within, within christianity, there is a core belief that christ will return again. and although actually the new testament counsels, in fact mom that we are not the guest the time to estimate the times, never less christian to find it very difficult not to do so. they kind of been tempted to do so our, the curiosity and since you have, of course we're wanting to see happen on the call, the bottom with that is instead of waiting patiently to something that's in gods

hands, one tends to interpret the signs of the times in one's own day, i want to see 2000 years of mistake and speculation of errors. it literally from the end of the roman empire through to the viking attacks. look, god is being out for us and to try to make your invasions you can imagine what people sang during the crusades. it is possible between christianity and islam and how islam was regarded as being then in league and anti christ from the per say to point to view. it exploded again during the reformation and when christianity fractured and then you can see cost us calling the polka to christ. for example, it was very, very big in revolution. this country. it then goes quite for, while other explodes, again in the 20th century, where since 2nd war in many ways, particularly united states, it has become what we might call a and s got

a logical tend to part to the cold war politics that we divide in the middle east and dividing the world now after $945.00 famously. famously gorbachev seen as president. that yeah, you mentioned the english revolution. i thought the big is in 1649, were revolutionaries in bill and god, by you, you say something different there. but actually when it comes to revolutionary politics, you say that there are people who say that the later church may have the finesse to jesus. his message to say, whereas a jesus christ was talking about and times in his own like the end of the temple they may for instance, had just with it's further away the apocalypse. well, no, no certainly debates, monks, biblical scholars as to what was meant by jesus teaching about the end times. and clearly it does appear to be many late ah, some past that simply talking about coming catastrophe with regard to conflict with rome. and nevertheless, as he talked about himself as being like, like the son of man and daniel, he clearly was look talking in eschatological terms,

talking about that the longer term as well when michael cosmic change. but what's really interesting is that within the new testament there a clear commands not to get the times to leave it to god, to not touch what to protect the times. but it was almost as soon as the canon of scripture is closed from 2nd or 3rd century onward. we see people understandably, of course, because they are looking forward to this beginning to interpret their own times as fulfills the prophecy and beginning a process of erroneous miscalculations and erroneous speculations, which lasted for 2000 years. so the kind of caution, new testament commands is often not the experience of ordinary people. yeah, but since this, the 33000000 arguably exert a disproportionate electoral influence on the superpower. and as you say, a george w bush are believed in the literal, the literal accuracy of a end times predictions of what does that mean for

a nuclear weapons use in climate crisis policies? presume that that group believe that you get violence in the middle east. you get a new, they confrontation, you get a climate crisis. this is all a chronicle foretold. it can be very, very alarming. because if in fact you believe that you are on the brink of your pockets, if you like, of, of armageddon. and then far from working for peace and harmony and saying if it doesn't work out least it wasn't me to contribute towards it. not working out there can be that can be a dangerous tendency to step back to let things run to even if you like. encourage of the apocalypse. i think one of the things we find within the american right is for example, on a refusal to engage with climate change. after all, it would have no future then why not be the why get engage with climate change or

need that may be part of the plan for the end times. there can be a distrust of nuclear disarmament. as i remember people saying these kind of things in a 19 eighties for example. well, if this is going to lead to armageddon, then we shouldn't be kind of like stopping as it were. so they can be a very dangerous trend within particularly even local right in the states. but can almost be looking towards armageddon and city doing nothing to if you like, slow it down or, or, or to diffuse conflict. i think that it is very dangerous area. and it can, it can in fact encourage escalation of conflict almost as if people feel that they are kind of hurrying along the end times. and it reminds us that we do not live in a secular, a world as we sometimes think that we do and, and it's interesting how it can be used by left and right. you mentioned catholic liberation, theology of is in latin america. revolutionary ideas that draw something of this

apocalypse, but in terms of class we're a you, you do say that 8 can encourage passivity. those empowers in power can say we have the climate, don't do anything about. yes, it's quite intriguing because it would be wrong to say that belief in n times necessarily goes along with passivity or that it goes along with brightening politics. that would just not be correct. you can find time again again in the history of eschatology and christian church. when it has accompanied radicalism, the sense all building the kingdom on earth over throwing the world in order to establish a kingdom of justice. you mentioned the diggers, monarchy man. in the 17th century, rebels joined the german peasant swore in the 16th century and so on, so forth. so it is not a foregone conclusion, that it is a back passivity or even allowing imperialism and violence. but it,

but it is certainly taken that turn, particularly in the usa since the 2nd world war on what worries me is that what happened in the usa since the 2nd world war is it has become, if you like, a, an accompaniment to cold war politics. and the kind of divisive polarized politics that have continued with the end of the cold war. and that, i think it is certainly not in line with testament radical radicalism. we talked about justice and talked about the care for the poor and talked about, you know, blessing the peacemakers and so on. i think it's not in line to that, but too often it is in line with imperialistic, militaristic outlooks which see themselves as being if you like, the ones who are encouraging it. i think that that's not the inevitable outworking of eschatological belief, but that is where we are at the moment with regard particularly to the american evangelical. right. and that is, i think an area of real concern loving with that give,

thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday, 18 years to the day iraqi president, saddam hussein was captured by us forces his father and a donation was killed, wounded, displaced tens of millions until then keep in touch my social media and tell us what you think the n times more like now than ever before. ah, ah, blue right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that he's fatty and sugary and salty and addicted. it's not at the individual level, it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that never change is obesity epidemic, that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment for what's driving the obesity epidemic. it's corporate

in awe. for how long can this go on today? is international human rights day? what a shame, how cynical a dark day for journalism, a sound to support is lash out at the london high court ruling to allow the possible extradition of putin a sound to america. that has to be yes, another hearing to decide his fate. this is not a case that is being fought on the basis of it more. this is an absolutely tried to steal any legal process. we coal on our shop to return to diplomacy onto the escalate western russia to de escalate the ukrainian crisis while sending $60000000.00 worth of military i to kiev and reportedly considering to donate even more.