ah, i'm actually resent any, what's going on the run 57 years to the day, the che guevara addressed. the united nations coming up in the show is u. s. president joe biden playing chicken in kiev hours after biden self styled democracy summit condemned in china and in the week of the pigeon. biden's summit. what chances of nuclear war we don't do, you know, we don't rule out 1st use nuclear action, and apocalypse again or doomsday delayed as us politicians argue for nuclear strikes on russia. we explore why and times of predicted time and time again, and who see all of them all coming up in today's going underground at 1st 57 years ago today, che guevara addressed the un general assembly during the height of the circle, cold war. and this week vladimir putin and joe biden arguably tried to avoid nuclear war in a private virtual summit between the 2 supervised laser nation media predictably

centered on ukraine rather than the legacy of failed was in iraq, afghanistan, syria, and libya. joining me now from canterbury is kent university's professor of russian and european politics and the author of the pigeon paradox. professor richard sackler. thank you so much. sure. profess faqua for coming back on. we're actually talking about armageddon and bought 2 of this show biden. i just finished democracy, summit selected democrats being invited to to are a virtual. as summit you said last time you were on going underground. that biden would be it exceptionally dangerous leader endorsed by the washington security establishment. you said, aside from him sending the 7th fleet, i think it is to china along with the british war. sure. being sent there. are we see the 6 fleet in the black sea right now? what do you think about it in the context of russia imminently about to invade ukraine? what do you think of the virtual puget biden's this week?

well, when we last spoke, i think we were anticipating what the biden currency was going to look like. and it's only days what is actually happened since it's now coming to the end of his 1st year in office and what's emerged is that even though he's, you know, a long time individual dealing with a foreign affairs at income u. s. u. s. congress and vice president. he's turned out to be a bit of a more mixed picture. it said, what's important is that he has engaged with putting in with russia twice. there was the june 20 the summit in geneva, which was important for establishing 2 things and arms control process and either some sort of framework for managing cyber conflict. and of course, the virtual summit this week. so it's,

it's important that he's actually talking. i think the big picture is, is that the idea was that they would stabilize the relations with russia and then focus on the conflict with china. you mentioned interestingly, just not you talked about 57 years ago. the so called code. well, it was not, it was not a so called it was the cold war, and i meant to call because it was hot for many of the developing world in so in that sense, absolutely. in that sense, it was pretty hot in all sorts of places, of course, the vietnam war except you. but it was ultimately a cold war in that the major powers did not come into to get confrontation. i argue that that was in the cold war one, and that we're now in cold war 2 because of the unsolved unresolved issues at the end of the 1st congo after 98991. and of course, that's how we need understand the ukraine crisis today in that context. because sir,

no inclusive equitable piece order was established after 1991 and instead of which the atlantic power system nato. and of course, the european union both advanced and in the sense it wasn't so much the enlargement of these 2 organizations. it is the way it was done, which has established a negative security dilemma. or let's put it this way and intensifying security dilemma, or in rich russia feels more and more challenged. and this is what the crisis over you going today is all about. well, as you know, from a more hawkish, i think tanks here in london, let alone across the pond in the united states. they probably reject that kind of analysis. after all, what we have here is a question of what a 120000 of pollutants troops are on the border with that ukraine. we talked last

time of the script pals. we talked about human rights abuses in russia and good in russia. are we talking about what rusher is exerting as a malign influence around the world? the occupation of a crimea, as is constantly a constant reminder on nato nation, media. you so you don't see it as a even or do you see it as part of cold war 2 that we should have where these one us politicians are to roger wicker, 2nd, eyes ranking republican on the armed services committee and congress saying that we mustn't rule out the 1st use, i 1st use nuclear strike on russia, and obviously britain is a nuclear power as well. so as to nuclear power versus moscow. well engage. this is just that sort of our crazy talk is just a sign of just how weird and how dangerous the 2nd cold war is. because i don't think you'd have had many people poking in such

a loose and wild manner in cold war one, which was a more disciplined conflict. and more cry, a more straightforward one, communism versus capitalism. 2 blocks it power to power blocks. it seemed to be so much simpler, almost naive in those days. the 2nd cold war. you're absolutely right that, you know, defenders of nato enlargement will argue that it's benign and that it, nothing. there's nothing for russia to be concerned about. now, you know, i've always sat suggested that is it, is that a valid argument is absolutely no reason why nato could not have enlarged. but the point was that ultimately there had to be a way in which the enlargement dealt with the russia security question. now it's not a question of pretend it's not a question or whoever comes after him because it also concerned who came before him . yeltsin and measured it. and of course, whoever comes off to head, it's a finding a sorry to interrupt them,

but there's no written evidence that james baker gave an undertaking to the russians, that nato would not expand eastwards as a. there is pine cio floating evidence survey surveillance guy, another national archives, material show not only james baker on, in february 1990, but a dozen western leaders said the same thing. plenty of documentary evidence in the memoirs. and in the minutes of those meetings, there was no tracy of course. so that in that sense, no, it was not formally made as a political so plenty of written evidence, no substantive negotiated a strategic error in the whole history of states. since of all of the roman empire committee by russia, and isn't putin committing yet another mistake, allowing it to get to the stage where he's worried about the russian russians biggest, a naval base and the poring over weston is and,

and troops. i mean, i don't know why there are the u. s. national guard troops from california are already in ukraine. british troops, apparently on stand by to send $600.00 special forces. how to put and get into position like this, forgetting the errors made by go, but you haven't yeltsin. yes indeed. i'm included, just stand off at the moment, is, you know, on the one side you could argue in some people have argued, it's as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis. and october 1962. i don't think it's quite at that level. but what it does show is that to, you know, the for this is the 2nd time this year that has been this military builder. oh, gotcha. of course you mentioned one figure. we don't know what the figures are. they seem to vary between 70000 and a 120, if not 850000. but certainly the, our forces along the border. i was forcing that we're hearing daily in a donation. meteor about numbers of troops and munitions and the present personnel and the material. yes, i mean these numbers, as you say,

keep changing and don't forget, the whole issue began in washington at 1st the, the, you know, the how you can, you know, for the care of leadership. i'm dismissed at an event that now joined it. you know, i'm talking about a few weeks ago. it's a very interesting, i'm going to say one word about the suggestible base. it isn't just a question of nato enlargement, of course, because even nato enlargement was off the agenda at the time of the obama presidency. yet we're talking about the fact that the u. s. forces will be, as it were, defacto part of it will be advancing into you again already this is putting, made this point in his bow our speech in october. and of course, he's not the only one to pointed out that nato enlargement is only one part of the advancement of an atlantic power system which excludes russia. so as i say, you know, what's happening now is that, gosh, as pushing back in his state of the nation speech earlier this year,

putting argue this was an april, he took that red lines. and so what's happening there is quite clearly the ukrainian crisis is an impasse and that, and this is why i'm to say it was positive that in the bye didn't put in virtual meeting earlier this week that this was talked about. and he said no red lines biden will not accept, and he will be redlands, they won't exactly is guidelines by putting whether they accept them or not. they're awesome. and the question is that, what does the russia do about it? you know, i don't think, i mean, clearly invasion talk i think is well talk as gotcha is not planning to invade. in part, this was a plan to move in case there was going to be a push against on bass, but even that was unlikely. but what we're now seeing is an attempt to, if you like to cut the ukrainian gordian knot that if minsk that the game and on

the stages of don bass is not going to be implemented. then let's find a way of trying to deal with this issue so that we don't get into this question again. will means doesn't mention much on nater nation media. i don't know about whether that leaders like by blue bars, johnson, nato leaders, oppression by the military. industrial complex people are making money out of all of this, of course, the arms makers. but i don't know whether a zalinski is under pressure from the hard. right, right. sector, neo nazis. and this a in kiev, i better just quickly go to this threat of economic warfare, which certainly, as seems much more in horizon than in a nuclear strike. what can the russia do? i mean, what will it do? team up more with china, if it's a fab western authorities stop the swifter banking transfer scheme, whereby all businesses are able to trade money and send money abroad. what was put in a going to do, isn't this a massive own goal for sending in all these troops?

to the border rather than actually a vic, jeff, uprooting and getting by them to the table virtual table. well, all these say all these moves are threatened if russia invades, but since russia has no intention of invading, unless, of course you can move 1st, then these measures are hopefully won't take place. and of course, in addition to the list you've mentioned, there's nordstrom to that already it's being sanctioned, even without an invasion. it's been delayed by several years. and even now it's, you know, they, they will, i mean, jump the idea of defending yourself by cutting off your own gas supplies. what i'm thinking you don't think the new chancellor sholtes will will, will he just b roll over to the united states and stop energy security for germany and western europe? yeah, well this is in addition, 6 and stopping. it was increasing energy security and date by and showing more direct supplies and of course supply some yano which of course is far to the north of the ukrainian plank system. so yes, well indeed,

they knew german government has been signed in the 2nd week of december this year. so we'll have to see because the chancellor schultz, i would imagine we'll want to continue the pipeline. but don't forget, his foreign minister is that the lee, one of the coat ages of the kings who in the past has spoken against it. but of course in office, and this was an issue carefully avoided in in them over a 100 pages of the coalition agreement. but yeah, it's an important issue. obviously, the big question is, why is the united states so concerned about european energy security? when, when would have thought europeans could handle that issue themselves? promise, richardson, thank you. again. after the break nuclear war, plague climate disaster is judgment day approaching or hasn't been misjudged again . we examined the history of the end of the world. all the more coming up got to

have going underground. ah ah join me every thursday on the alex salmon. sure. i'll be speaking to guess what the world politics, small business i'm show business. i'll see you then. ah

welcome back 24 years ago to day kyoto protocols were assigned in an attempt to prevent climate catastrophe. it could be argued that the continuing climate crisis represents just one of the 4th horsemen of the apocalypse that are bearing down on the 21st century. alongside nuclear war, a global pandemic and famines created by new liberal policies. what better time for the end times again, 2000 years of the use and misuse of biblical prophecy? the new book by martin whitlock, who joins me now for both in england. thank you so much, martin for coming back on. you know, we have a new german chancellor, earl of schultz, a huge influence on the european union, and you better begin like you begin in the book about dissuading us of the you. parliament is not modeled on the tower of babel and there is no missing seat 666 dead or it's deliberately kept empty in the european parliament in strasburg. yes, yes. i can. i can reassure you about that. i was quite astonished in 2016 when i

was part of organizing a meeting at west country time and looking at the arguments for and against membership of the you and we got in the end some extraordinary debates about people make accusations about it was much christian churches, i don't see many people that talked about economics and, and the politics of it. and so some people that were, were very impassioned about the fact that the european union, they felt represented. and you fall with the 4th kingdom of daniel and reflect the things in revelation. and that was this, this, this disk accusations that, that align the seat. 66 is katrina ready for the anti christ. i was astonished by this a many of the other people i was with was astonished. but i shouldn't have been astonished because i have a back story in this. i was a kid of the 1970. i read the american books like late, great kind of earth by how lindsey and others. and i was very much into this in the 19 seventies and felt that i was doing very much in the end times. we may yet be

doing the same time. i'm gonna convinced that within the christian church, this is very often a problematic area because although it's a core belief, the problem comes when people are sure they are in the end times and start interesting events as being due to difficult property being fulfilled. and then they will be right to some cases, but in other cases they can be woefully wrong as 2000 years of history are shown. so i was, i was shocked in that meeting. i wrote this book party at a wake up call to people to just be cautious in how they approach the core area of christian belief. well, i mean there are plenty of you is out there who probably think we are in, in times of probably do think the european union is a satanic. i don't know how more seriously. as we approached, i christmas looking to the holy land bethlehem. you contend the jumps decision to move the u. s. embassy to jerusalem amidst all the ongoing violence. and because we've had our, if a violence in may this

a year at the support for israel's occupation of serious golan heights. this is not for you for a united states or jewish ship, people, it is for the evangelical people. that's what that's all about us is really a big jump on the record of saying that his support in these areas does not come from american jewish believers. but they come from members of what we might turn the evangelical, right. i evangelicals within the u. s. a who see israel as a fulfillment of prophecy and f. we'll see what can sometimes amount to unquestioning support for, for actions by as early as radio administrations as being in line with that support for prophecy. and it is quite clear that when trump moved the embassy, i'm not support full as a santee over the golden heights. he was not,

he was not appealing to american jews. he was appealing to you as evangelicals who, of course, as we know so something lighten, 53000000 votes for him. 81 percent wife angelica zone for him, but in 2016 and in 2020. so he was appealing to a call based there who basically view middle east and politics you through and what you might con eschatological lens and clearly see trump for his, for some filings are delivering in this area. so this, this is the logical position has come. so quite extraordinary impacts on one geo politics. yeah, you grew, you cite the, wasn't both quoted piece about 33000000 is believe in the creation of the state of israel and 48. i did presage the 2nd coming of of christ. but if, as to trump, who are going to that citation meant that he kind of knew this is to tit for electoral reasons and jump and by their support of israel. i mean just the other day this week, the talk here in syria, the resort town was bombed by israel in fantasy to u. s. d t, as they come in

a long line of leaders around the world in history. charlemagne use a pope urban. the 2nd frederick, the 2nd, who used the apocalypse? yes indeed. and basically within christianity as when it, as within islam, there is a belief in the end times are they the, the 2nd coming of christ, the coming of isa in islam. but also the within, within christianity, there is a core belief that christ will return again. and although actually the new testament counsels, in fact mom that we are not the guest the times, not estimate the times, never less. christians have found it very difficult, not to do so. they kind of been tempted to do so. our the curiosity, unenthusiastic, also wanted to see happen as on the call the bottom with that is instead of waiting patiently for something that's in gods hands, one tends to interpret the signs of the times in one's own day. i want to see 2000

years of, of mistaken speculation of errors literally from the end of the roman empire through to that the viking attacks. look, the god is being out forums and cried them magar invasions. you can imagine what people sang during the crusades is this is tussle between christian islam. and how on islam was a regardless being then in league and anti christ from the crusade a point of view. it exploded again during the reformation. and when christianity fractured and then you can see prostate calling the polka to christ example. it was very, very big in meetings revolution in this country. it then goes quite for while other explodes, again in the 20th century, where since the 2nd world war in many ways, particularly united states, it has become what we might call a and eschatological counterpart to the cold war politics that we divide in the middle east and dividing the world after 945 famously,

famously gorbachev seen as president that yeah, you mentioned english revolution. i thought the diggers in 1649 were revolutionary . didn't believe in god by you, you say something different there, but actually when it comes to revolutionary politics, you say that there are people who say that the later church may have the finesse to jesus his message to say whereas a jesus christ was talking about the end times in his own like the end of the temple. they may for instance, i just wish it's further away the apocalypse. well, no, no certainly debates amongst the decal scholars as to what was meant by jesus teaching about the end times. and clearly it does appear to be many layered on some past that he be talking about coming catastrophe with regard to conflict with rome. nevertheless, as he talked about himself as being like the son of man and daniel, he clearly was look talking in eschatological terms, talking about the, the longer term as well when michael cosmic change. but what's really interesting

is that within the new testament there a clear commands not to get the times to leave it to god, to not touch what dick the times, but it was, it was as soon as the canon of scripture is closed from the 2nd or 3rd century onward, we see people understandably, of course, because they are looking forward to this beginning to interpret their own times as fulfills the prophecy and beginning a process of erroneous miscalculations and erroneous speculations, which had lasted for 2000 years. so the kind of caution that new testament commands is often not the marian, so would me people. yeah. but since this 33 minute argument exert a disproportionate electoral influence on the super bower. and as you say, a george w bush, or believed in the literal that the literal accuracy of a end times a predictions of. what does that mean for a nuclear weapons use in climate crisis policies?

presume that that group believe that you get violence in the middle east, you get a new, they confrontation, you get a climate crisis. this is all a critical foretold. it can be very, very alarming. because if in fact you believe that you are on the brink of your pockets, if you like, of, of armageddon. them far from working for peace and harmony and saying if it doesn't work, at least it wasn't me that contributed towards it not working out. there can be that can be a dangerous tendency to step back to let things run to even if you like encourage of the apocalypse. i think one of the things we find within the american right is, for example, on a refusal to engage with climate change. after all is what has no future then why not be, you know, the why get engage with climate change? or indeed that may be part of the plan for the end times. that can be a distrust of nuclear disarmament. as i remember people saying these kind of things

in 1980 for example, well, if, if, if, if this is going to lead to armageddon, then we shouldn't be kind of like stopping as it were. so they can be a very dangerous trend within particularly the even alco roy in the states, but can almost be looking towards armageddon. and so he doing nothing to if you like, slow it down or, or, or to diffuse conflict. i think that is a very dangerous area and it can, it can in fact encourage escalation of conflict almost as if people feel that they are kind of hurrying along the times. and it reminds us that we do not live in a secular, a world as we sometimes think that we do and, and it's interesting how it can be used by left and right. you mentioned catholic liberation, theology of is in latin america. revolutionary ideas that draw something of the apocalypse, but in terms of class war a you, you do say that 8 can encourage passivity. those empowers in power can say we have

the climate, don't do anything about. yes, it's quite intriguing because it would be wrong to say that believe in n times necessarily goes along with passivity or that it goes along with brightening politics. and i would just not be correct. you can find time again and again in the history of eschatology, the christian church, when it has accompanied radicalism, the sense all building the kingdom on earth over throwing the world in order to establish a kingdom of justice. you mentioned the diggers, monarchy man in the 17th century rebels during the german peasants war in the 16th century and so on, so forth. so it is not a foregone conclusion that it is a back passivity or even allowing imperialism and violence. but it, but it is certainly taken that turn, particularly in the usa since the 2nd world war on what worries me is that what

happened in the usa since the 2nd world war is it has become, if you like, a, an accompaniment to cold war politics. and the kind of divisive poets politics that have continued with the end of the cold war. and that i think it is certainly not in line with you testament radical radicalism. we talked about justice and talked about the caffeine to pull and talked about, you know, blessing the peacemakers and so on. i think it's not in line to that, but too often it is in line with imperialistic, militaristic outlooks which see themselves as being if you like, the ones who are in courage. i think that's not the inevitable outworking of eschatological belief, but that is where we are at the moment with regard particularly to the american evangelical. right. and that is, i think an area of real concern. latham with that give, thank you. that's ever the show will be back on monday, 18 years to the day iraqi president,

saddam hussein was captured by us forces his father and a donation war. the killed wounded or displaced tens of millions until then keep in touch my social media and tell us what you think the n times more like now than ever before. ah, so we've talked about the rising chance of civil war and america, and it could either be between the ab yachts and the have nots. they could be between the bitcoin stage like texas or florida, between the non bitcoin states. but the rising tension is probable because of the rising genie coefficient that is bound the spread between the very top and the and the bottom is getting extremely wide

back breaking toil, forced labor stress, industrial injury. corporal punishment. owner words with we're all familiar. ah, you certain that the world you live in abolished slavery long ago, a

world has really turned upside down and what we see now, he's blatantly progress. when was the last time you were a verifiable truth from the united states government that they put out to the public? it's been called a dark day for journalism julian assange supporters lash out at the london hi courts relate to allow, is possible extradition to the united states. yet another hearing is now needed to decide his fate. we call on russia to return to diplomacy and to escalate the west urges russia to take the heat out of the ukrainian crisis while sending $60000000.00 worth of military aid. the key of and is reportedly considering more fuss. the curious tale of the american bill.