do you live in abolish slavery long ago? ah, wolf has really turned upside down and what we see now, he is blatantly blown away. when was the last time you were a verifiable truth from the united states government did that they put out to the public. it is being called a dark day for journalism julian assange supporters lash out at the london hi court ruling to allow his possible extradition to the united states. he had another hearing is now needed to decide his fate. devastating tornadoes tear through parts of the u. s. with the death toll in kentucky alone feared to be more than 70 people . we call on our shop to return to diplomacy onto the escalate and the west urges russia to take the heat out of the ukrainian crisis

while sending $60000000.00 worth of military aid to give and is reportedly considering war plus the curious tale of the american 1000000000 air force to to return $70000000.00 worth of stolen antiquities. he had been hoarding for decades, but there is anger after it is revealed. he won't face any criminal charges whether you're in a hotel in st. louis or from springfield, illinois. we are glad to have you with us that does it for me. my colleague, collin bray, will be here in about an hour's time with another phone. fresh local news. say with a this is dr. international. are in with . ah,

i'm asher isn't any. what's going on the run 57 years of the day, the che guevara addressed. the united nations coming up in the show is u. s. president joe biden playing chicken in kiev hours after biden self styled democracy summit condemned in china. and in the week of the pigeon biden's summit, what chances of nuclear war we don't do, you know, we don't rule out 1st use nuclear action, and apocalypse again or doomsday delayed as us politicians argue for nuclear strikes on russia. we explore why and times a predicted time and time again, and who see all of them all coming up in today's going underground at 1st 57 years ago today, che guevara addressed the un general assembly during the height of the so called cold war. and this week vladimir putin and joe biden, arguably try to avoid nuclear war in a private virtual summit between the 2 supervisors. new nation media predictably

centered on ukraine rather than the legacy of failed was in iraq, afghanistan, syria, and libya. joining me now from canterbury is kent university professor, russian and european politics and the author of the pigeon paradox. professor richard sackler, thank you so much. sure. profess faqua for coming back on. we're actually talking about armageddon and bought 2 of this show biden. i just finished democracy, summit selected democrats being invited to to are a virtual. as summit you said last time you were on going underground. that biden would be it exceptionally dangerous leader endorsed by the washington security establishment. you said, aside from him sending the 7th fleet, i think it is to china along with the british washer being sent there. are we see the 6 fleet in the black sea right now? what do you think about it in the context of russia imminently about to invade ukraine? what do you think of the virtual putin biden? some of this week?

well, when we last spoke, i think we were anticipating what the biden currency was going to look like. and it's only days what is actually happened since it's now coming to the end of his 1st year in office and what's emerged is that even though he's, you know, a long time individual dealing with a phone and a face at income u. s. u. s. congress and vice president. he's turned out to be a more mixed picture. it says what's important is that he has engaged with putting in with russia twice. there was the june 20 this year at summit in geneva, which was important for establishing 2 things and arms control process and either some sort of framework for managing cyber conflict. and of course, the virtual summit this week. so it's,

it's important that he's actually talking. i think the big picture is, is that the idea was that they would stabilize the relations with russia and then focus on the conflict with china. you mentioned interestingly, just not. you talked about 57 years ago. the so called code. well, it was not, it was not a so called it was the cold war, and i meant to call because it was hot for many of the developing world in the class. so in that sense, absolutely. in that sense, it was pretty hot in all sorts of places to go to vietnam war except, you know, but it was ultimately a cold war in that the major powers did not come into to get confrontation. i argue that that was in the cold war one, and that we're now in cold war 2, because of the unsolved unresolved issues at the end of the 1st come to our, to 98991. and of course, that's how we need to stand the again crisis to day in that context. because sir,

no inclusive equitable piece order was established after 1991 and instead of which the atlantic power system nato. and of course, the european union both advanced and in the sense it wasn't so much the enlargement of these 2 organizations. it is the way it was done, which has established a negative security dilemma, or let's put it this way and intensifying security dilemma. and richie russia feels more and more challenged. and this is what the crisis over ukraine today is all about. well, as you know from a more hawkish, i think tanks here in london, let alone across the pond in the united states. they probably reject that kind of analysis. after all, what we have here is a question of what a 120000 of pollutants troops are on the border with that ukraine. we talked last

time of the script pals. we talk about human rights abuses in russia. and good in russia, are we talking about what rusher is exerting as a malign influence around the world? the occupation of crimea, as is constantly a constant reminder on nato nation, media. you so you don't see it as a even or do you see it as part of cold war 2 that we should have where these one us politicians are to roger wicker, 2nd, eyes ranking republican on the armed services committee and congress saying that we mustn't rule out the 1st use, a 1st use nuclear strike on russia. and obviously britain is a nuclear power as well. so as to nuclear power versus moscow. well engaged. this is just that sort of our crazy talk is just a sign of just how weird and how dangerous the 2nd cold war is. because i don't think you'd have had many people king in such

a loose and wild manner in cold war one, which was a more disciplined conflict. a more cry, a more straightforward one, communism versus capitalism, 2 blocks power to power blocks. it seemed to be so much simpler, almost naive in those days. the 2nd cold war. you're absolutely right that, you know, defenders of nato enlargement will argue that it's benign and that it, nothing. there's nothing for russia to be concerned about. now, you know, i've always sat suggested that it is that a valid argument is absolutely no reason why nato could not have enlarged. but the point was that ultimately there had to be a way in which the enlargement dealt with the russia security question. now it's not a question of pretend it's not a question or whoever comes after him because it also concerned who came before him . yeltsin and measured it. and of course, whoever comes off to head it's, i find him, i sorry to interrupt them, but there's no written evidence that james baker gave an undertaking to the

russians. that nato would not expand eastwards as a. there is pine cio floating evidence survey surveillance guy, another national archives, material show not only james baker on, in february 1990, but a dozen western leaders said the same thing. plenty of documentary evidence in the memoirs. and in the minutes of those meetings, there was no tracy of course. so that in that sense, no, it was not formally made as a political so plenty of written evidence, no substantive negotiated a strategic error in the whole history of states. since of all of the roman empire committee by russia, and isn't putin committing yet another mistake, allowing it to get to the stage where he's worried about the russian rushes biggest, a naval base and the poring over western arms and, and troops. i mean,

i don't know why they're on the us. national guard troops from california are already in ukraine. british troops, apparently on standby to send $600.00 special forces. how to put and get into position like this, forgetting the errors made by gorbachev and yeltsin. yes indeed, i'm included, just stand off at the moment is on the one side you could argue in some people have argued, it's as dangerous as the cuban missile crisis. and october 1962. i don't think it's quite at that level. but what it does show is that to, you know, the focus is the 2nd time this year that has been this military builder. i gotcha. of course you mentioned one figure. we don't know what the figures are. they seem to vary between 70000 and a 120, if not 850000, but certainly to our forces along the border. i was saying that we're hearing daily in a donation. meteor about numbers of troops and munitions and the pas personnel and the material. yes, i mean these numbers, as you say,

keep changing and then to get the whole issue began in washington at 1st the in the, you know, the how you can, you know, for the care of leadership. i'm dismissed at an event that now joined it. you know, i'm talking about a few weeks ago. it's a very interesting, i'm going to say one word about the semester for bass. it isn't just a question of nato enlargement, of course, because even nato enlargement was off the agenda at the time of the obama presidency. yet we're talking about the fact that the u. s. forces will be, as it were, defacto part of it will be advancing into you again already this is putting, made this point in his bow our speech in october. and of course, he's not the only one to pointed out that nato enlargement is only one part of the advancement of an atlantic power system which excludes russia. so as i say, you know, what's happening now is that, gosh, as pushing back in his state of the nation speech earlier this year,

putting argue this was an april, he took that red lines. and so what's happening there is quite clearly the ukrainian crisis is an impasse and that, and this is why i'm to say it was positive that in the bye didn't put in virtual meeting earlier this week that this was talked about and said no red lines, biden will don't accept and he will be redlands, they won't exactly is guidelines but protein, whether they accept them or not. they're awesome. and the question is that, what does the russia do about it? you know, i don't think, i mean, clearly invasion talk i think is well talk as gotcha is not planning to invade. in part, this was a plan to move in case there was going to be a push against on bass, but even that was unlikely. but what we're now seeing is an attempt to, if you like to cut the ukrainian gordian knot, that if minsk who's at the game and on the status of don bass is not going to be

implemented. then let's find a way of trying to deal with this issue so that we don't get into this question again. will means hasn't mentioned much on nater nation media. i don't know about whether leaders like by blue bars. johnson nato lead is a pressured by the military industrial complex. people are making money out of all of this. of course the arms and i make is but i don't know whether a zalinski is under pressure from the hard right, right. sector, neo nazis. and this a in kiev, i better just quickly go to this threat of economic warfare, which it certainly as seems much more in horizon than in a nuclear strike. what can the russia do? i mean, what will it do? team up more with china, if it's a fab western authorities stop the swifter banking transfer scheme, whereby all businesses are able to trade money and send money abroad. what, what is putin to do? isn't this a massive own goal for sending in all these troops to the border,

rather than actually a victim of guten and getting by them to the table virtual table? well, all these are, all these moves are threatened if russia invades, but since russia has no intention of invading unless, of course, you can move 1st, then these measures are hopefully won't take place. and of course, in addition to the list you've mentioned, there's nordstrom to that already it's being sanctioned, even without an invasion. it's been delayed by several years. and even now it's, you know, they, they will, i mean, jump the idea of defending yourself by cutting off your own gas supplies. what i'm thinking you don't think the new chancellor sholtes will will, will just be a rollover to the united states and stuff, but energy security for germany and western europe. yeah. well, this is in addition, 6 in stopping. it was increasing energy security date by and showing more direct supplies and of course supply some yano, which of course is far to the north of the ukrainian plank system. so yes,

well indeed, they knew german government has been signed in the 2nd week of december this year. so we'll have to see because the chancellor shows, i would imagine we'll want to continue the pipeline. but don't forget, his foreign minister is that the lee one of the code ages of the kings who in the past has spoken against it. but of course in office. and this was an issue carefully avoided in them over a 100 pages of the coalition agreement. but yeah, it's an important issue. obviously the big question is, why is the united states so concerned about european energy security when, when would have thought europeans could handle that issue themselves for ms. richardson. thank you. ok. after the break nuclear war play climate disaster his judgment day approaching or has it been misjudged again? we examined the history of the end of the world. all this i'm all coming up about

to have going undergrad. ah ah ah. ah, just isn't it on you being a loyal navina but they did in a viable mapping by middle none. i own the heat up my lap. bad. bad hail of that. i man thought just don't want to love a new knuckle. my love bob, he didn't thought now. well, i'm up at a bit a well, i mean, a happy correlation. suburban young donia

did not in banana welcome back. 24 years ago to day kyoto protocols were signed in an attempt to prevent climate catastrophe could be argued that the continuing climate crisis represents just one of the 4th horsemen of the apocalypse that are bearing down on the 21st century. alongside nuclear war global pandemic. and famines created by new liberal policies, well, better time for the end times again, 2000 years of the use and misuse of biblical prophecy. the new book by martin whittaker, who joins me now from both in england. thank you so much martin for coming back on . you know, we have a new german chancellor of shoulds, huge influence on the european union, and you better begin like you begin in the book about dissuading us of the you. parliament is not modeled on the tower of babel and there is no missing seat 666

dead or it's deliberately kept empty in the european parliament in strasburg. yes, yes. i can. i can be a show you about that. i was what has done it in 2016 when i was part of organizing a meeting at west country time, looking at the algorithms for and against membership of the you and we got in the end some extraordinary debates about people making accusations about it was much christian churches, i don't see many people that talking about economics and, and the politics of it. and so for some people that were, were very impassioned about the fact that the european union, they felt represented. and you form of the 4th kingdom of daniel and reflect the things in revelation. and that was this, this, this disk accusations that, that align the seat 666 is katrina ready for the anti christ. i was astonished by this many of the other people. i was with astonished, but i shouldn't have been astonished because i have a back story in this. i was a kid of the 970. i read the american books like late, great kind of earth,

by how lindsey and others. and i was very much into this in the 1900 seventy's and felt that i was getting very much in the end times. we may yet be doing the end time, but okay. convinced that within the christian church, this is very often a problematic area because although it's a core belief, the problem comes when people are sure they are in the end times and start interesting events as being due to biblical prophecy being fulfilled. and then they will be right in some cases, but in other cases they can be woefully wrong as 2000 years of history shown. so i was, i was shocked to that meeting. i wrote this book party as a wake up call to people to just be cautious in how they approach the core area of christian belief. well, i mean, there are plenty of you is out there. probably think we are in, in times and probably do think the european union is a satanic. i don't know a boy seriously. as we approached, i christmas looking to the holy land bethlehem. you contend the jumps decision to

move the u. s. embassy to jerusalem. amidst all the ongoing violence or because we've had our, if a violence in may this year at the support for israel's occupation of serious golan heights. this is not for you for a united states, the jewish people, it is for the evangelical people, that's what that's all about us is really a big jump on the record of saying that he is supporting these areas. does not come from american jewish believers, but they come from members of what we might turn the evangelical right. i evangelicals within the u. s. a who see israel as a fulfillment of prophecy, and therefore see what can sometimes amount to unquestioning support for, for actions by as early as ready administrations as being in line with that support for prophecy. and it is quite clear that when trump moved the embassy,

i'm not support full as a santee over the golden heights. he was not, he was not appealing to eric and hughes. he was appealing to us even juggles, who, of course, as we knows something lighten 53000000 voted for him. 81 percent wife angelica zone for him, both in 2016 and in 2020. so he was appealing to a call based there who basically view middle east and politics you through and what you might call an eschatological lens. and clearly see trump for his, for some filings are delivering in this area. so this, this is the logical position has come some quite extraordinary impacts on one geo politics. yeah, you grew, you cite the, wasn't both quoted piece about 33000000 voters believe in the creation of the state of israel and 48 to did presage the 2nd coming of, of christ. but if, as to trump, who are going to that citation meant that he kind of knew this is to tit for electoral reasons and jump and bite their support of israel. i mean just the other

day this week, the talk here in syria, the resort town was bombed by israel in fantasy to u. s. d t, as they come in a long line of leaders around the world in history. charlemagne use a pope urban. the 2nd frederick, the 2nd, who use the apocalypse? yes indeed. basically with within christianity as when it as within his long that there is a belief in the end times or the 2nd coming of christ, the coming of isa in islam. but also the within, within christianity, there is a core belief that christ will return again. and although actually the new testament counsels in fact commands that we are not the guest the time, do not estimate the times. nevertheless, christians have found it very difficult not to do so. they could have been tempted to do so. and by the curiosity, unenthusiastic also wanted to see happen as on the call. the problem with that is instead of waiting patiently for something that's in gods hands,

one tends to interpret the signs of the times in one's own day. i want to see 2000 years of, of mistaken speculation of errors. literally from the end of the roman empire through to that the viking attacks, look, god is being out forums and cried them magar invasions. you can imagine what people sang during the crusades is this is tussle between christian islam. and how on islam was regardless being then in league and anti christ from the crusade point of view. it exploded again during the reformation and when christianity fractured, and then you can see costas calling the polka to christ. for example, it was very, very big in meetings this country. ah, it then goes quiet for a while and then explodes again in the 20th century. where since the 2nd world war, in many ways, particularly united states, it has become, what might call

a and eschatological counterpart to the cold war politics that we divide in the middle east and dividing the world after 945 famously. famously gorbachev seen as president that yeah, you mentioned english revolution. i go the diggers in 1649 were revolutionary, didn't believe in god by you, you say something different there. but actually when it comes to revolutionary politics, you say that there are people who say that the later church may have the finesse to jesus his message to say. whereas a jesus christ was talking about the end times in his own like the end of the temple they may for that in said just with it's further away the apocalypse. well, no, no certainly debates amongst the decal scholars as to what was meant by jesus teaching about the end times. and clearly it does appear to be many laid out some past that he be talking about coming catastrophe with regard to conflict with rome. and nevertheless, as he talked about himself as being like the son of man and daniel,

he clearly was look talking in eschatological terms, talking about the, the longer term as well. one, michael cosmic change. but what's really interesting is that within the new testament there a clear commands not to get the times to leave it to god, to not touch what dick the times, but it was, it was as soon as the canon of scripture is closed from 2nd or 3rd century onward, we see people understandably, of course, because they are looking forward to this beginning to interpret their own times as fulfills the prophecy and beginning a process of erroneous miscalculations and erroneous speculations, which had lasted for 2000 years. so the kind of caution that new testament commands is often not the experience of ordinary people. yeah, but this 33 minute arguably exert a disproportionate electoral influence on the superpower. and as you say, a george w bush are believed in the literal that the literal accuracy of a end times

a predictions of. what does that mean for a nuclear weapons use in climate crisis policies? presume that grew believe that you get violence in the middle east, you get a new, they confrontation, you get a climate crisis. this is all a critical foretold. it can be very, very alarming. because if in fact you believe that you are on the brink of the apocalypse, if you like of armageddon and then far from working for peace and harmony and saying if it doesn't work, at least it wasn't me that contributed towards it not working out. there can be that can be a dangerous tendency to step back to let things run to even if you like encourage of the apocalypse. i think one of the things we find within the american right is, for example, on a refusal to engage with climate change. after all, it would have no future then why not be, you know,

the why get engage with climate change or did that may be part of the plan for the end times. that can be a distrust of nuclear disarmament. as i remember people saying these kind of things in the 1980s for example. well, if, if, if, if this is going to lead to armageddon, then we shouldn't be kind of like stopping as it were. so they can be a very dangerous trend within particularly even alco, right in the states, but could almost be looking towards armageddon. and so he doing nothing to if you like, slow it down or, or, or to diffuse conflict. i think that it is very dangerous area and it can, it can in fact encourage escalation of conflict almost as if people feel that they are kind of hurrying along the end times. and it reminds us that we do live in a secular world as we sometimes think that we do and, and it's interesting how it can be used by left and right. you mentioned catholic liberation, theology of is in latin america. revolutionary ideas that draw something of the

apocalypse, but in terms of class we're a you, you do say that 8 can encourage passivity. those empowers in power can say that we have the climate don't do anything about yes, it's quite intriguing because it would be wrong to say that believe in and times necessarily goes along with passivity. other it goes along with brightening politics. and i would just not be correct. you can find time again and again in the history of eschatology, the christian church, when it has accompanied radicalism, the sense all building the kingdom on earth over throwing the world in order to establish a kingdom of justice. you mentioned the diggers, monarchy man in the 17th century rebels during the german peasants war in the 16th century and so on and so forth. so it is not a foregone conclusion that it is a back passivity or even allowing imperialism and violence. but it,

but it is certainly taken that turn, particularly in the usa since the 2nd world war on what worries me is that what happened in the usa since the 2nd world war is it has become, if you like, a, an accompaniment to cold war politics. and the kind of divisive put away politics that have continued with the end of the cold war. and that, i think it is certainly not in line with you testament radical radicalism. we talked about justice and talked about the caffeine to pull and talked about, you know, blessing the peacemakers and so on. i think it's not in line to that, but too often it is in line with imperialistic minute tricity outlooks which see themselves as being if you like, the ones who are encouraging your pocket. i. i think that that's not the inevitable outworking of eschatological belief, but that is where we are at the moment with regard particularly to the american evangelical. right. and that is, i think an area of real concern. latin with thank you. thank you. that's ever the

show will be back on monday, 18 years to the day iraqi president, saddam hussein was captured by us forces as bother me in a donation war. the killed wounded or displaced tens of millions until then keep in touch my social media and tell us what you think the n times more like now than ever before. with join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. i'll be speaking to guess on the world of politics, sport business, i'm sure business. i'll see you then.