ah, ah, a damn asher. it's an senior watching, going underground. 5 years to the day since the un security council adopted resolution to $3.00 to $3.00, reaffirming a strong commitment to the sovereignty independence, territorial integrity and national unity of africa's riches per capita. country libya coming up in the show 10 years after nature destruction and declarations of victory in libya after the murder of leader, warmer gadhafi. could his son safe be elected president? this christmas we talk to ma, get out. he's information minister about securing judicial support in the oil rich

country for his candidacy and his millions face humanitarian catastrophe, and displacement in the form of french west african colony of burkina, faso days of countries. prime minister was fired. we investigate the country's assassinated leader, often called africa's che guevara, thomas sand. kara, all this of all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, this month on christmas eve elections will take place in libya, formerly africa's richest per capita, nation before destruction, by nato nations. like britain and france in 2011. but now one candidate is promising to put power back in the hands of the libyan people. after a decade of imperialist foreign intervention, that candidate is safe all his land, gadhafi and the b as for information minister was abraham joins me now from germany . i minister, thanks so much for coming back on. it's a big news from libya not mentioned here in the british media. obviously, britain that took part in the aerial bombardment of your country and your reaction to the overturning of a decision that there was to disqualify safe. i'll get. well,

this actually confirmed what i have been saying through this buddy program for years that the will of the libyan people will be victorious. and then what is happening now is that the libyan tri cities and towns are coming together slowly. but in a very fast way to liberate their country from foreign intervention, especially that of western europe. and islam is increasingly seen by mos libyans. as they way out of this, a crisis is lam represents the good history of libya and he is a young man and he's project for the country is that of truth and reconciliation and peace for libya. and so we are very excited, unhappy, and this is not a step forward towards authority or the throne of libya. it's

a step forward toward separating countries. we have a machine 10 foreign military bases in libya, according to the united nations itself. and we have 20000 or in fighter on libyan land. this very moment. this is a country accumulation, and our 1st task is to liberate it. obviously, that's denied by the general authority back by the un security council. power is what about the fact that the general have to also be allowed to run planning to report on election issues in the next few hours. he comes 3rd in a pool by the d one institute. i don't know what you think of them. we all know about think tanks and, and joe's, and their views that arguably capitalize the destruction of the country. they've got it debatable you might have to who that is safe. i'll get out for who the world

knows who he is. and if i have to infer safety that we have 14 percent after 7 percent, 49 percent baber and $25.00 undecided. well, that's just for everyone knows that you cannot conduct any truthful and thorough opinion pose on my lip in libya, because of the security situation. many to be in cities and towns are under the control of armed, violent militia. so these supposedly beast opinion polls are done by p r companies and conducted by west and kevin said the scene for the eventual victory they hope for the agents, the libya. if you actually listen and watch libyan media from all political side, you will hear a general agreement from all side. that's if it has the why this popular

support in the country is the only political candidate who speaks about for and for once again, for an intervention, and who wants libya united, peaceful and democratic. i want to ask you who general half are is, is a former cia asset in nature. nation media is often talked about as being supported by egypt, the u. a in russia. and i understand that there are reports that he tried to stop the ruling on say, i'll get out feasibility to run by sending fighters to blockade the court in sober not just half car syphilis. lamb is a direct threat not to the libyan people, but to the ones who control the point. if you can see and the country and who are connected with foreign powers, you will notice actually, and that i always go back to mention in for an intervention. because this is the

equation simply in libya. you cannot talk about the issue of democracy. all police can activity all piece of prosperity for libyan without actually mentioning the major cause of what is happening in our homeland, which is military and political intervention from powerful nation, half the baby basha and many, many other name. they have clearly ally in themselves, not with their own people at their own cities and tried love with. with foreign powers, they pick and choose between britain. by the faith or germany or any of that country. this will only lengthen the crisis, and libya safely slam is not against collaboration. and understanding with the international community wants to establish the rim and strong libya that

can have been official relationships with everyone in africa, in europe as well, but no prospect of a deal with, with his father's old, the ally who then the they say will link to the ca will decide will come out and speak for himself very soon, but my understanding from my discussions with him and other people around him is that he's heart is open for any libyan wants to truly create or bring back actually a, somewhere in libya for olivia how do you even live in the nato back candidate baby, when it was part of the libyan government, even before 2011? not in a high ranking position,

a business man involved in some development projects in the country. and we know him very well. and if he decides to work for a united sovereign country and he goes back to his roots as a truly been citizen, back dissipated in the libyan process of development in the ninety's and the 2000. then he is welcome. you see we're not against individuals. we are against agenda, if you work for a liberated peaceful look at that, libya, then we work with you. but the problem is, isn't it given the interior minister and said that security threats in cyber put the christmas e elections in doubt? i have to are, has a kind of veto, only used to do is send fighters and then the interior minister in the g and a will just go, i know elections of christmas eve. well, think about this actually is the only candidate who is insisting that the elections

should take place in 2 weeks time. every other candidate is hoping for the elections to be postponed. now everyone else, every, every kind of has security very good security. they have malicious with them. they have a is the only one who does not have malicious, supporting him. i'm 2 groups. and yet with the security situation being very hard for him, he insist a support the elections on the 24th of december. this is because he is so confident that the libyan people as well will be victorious. why the others are scared of the peaceful? but if you can seen and they want to respond the elections so they can make agreements with each other, they can consult their foreign masters. they can come back with new ideas to listen . they're to stay in power with their groups in the east and the west of the

country. quite apart from the military and catastrophe in libya, the thousands untold thousands drowning in the mediterranean since britain bombed your country along the channel with indian and france as it beat any contact between the godaddy campaign and total. any or shell? i mean, it's refugees, but it's also about oil on the mediterranean. that's why are you presumably unsafe? believe britain bombed and the stabilized libby or in the 1st place, not about humanitarian intervention at all. is no secret that libya was formed because of it's a free can liberation project. and because of what kathy did inside libya, in terms of liberating delivery and economy liberating the piano oil from for in control in the future, we seek to bring back libya. that is for libyans,

this of course does not mean that we seek her style relations with the west or the east. we seek to work with our out as we new contact rather than as we no contact here, as i understand. and we spoke to the boss, now the black petroleum be blue. i denied that he denied it was about oil, but there is in libya, they have their guys and i'm hoping for either candidates to win over. but i assure everyone that's in the newly yeah. when islam reaches the position of the president, for this new libya, will be a peaceful land and a member of the international community which would include economical gratian, political corporation. but all based on a sovereign country, not on a satellite country belonging to the western powers. obviously, nato nations deny that they have ever wanted to control the oil. it was all about

humanity. i'm going to ask you, given that your information minister to mama get effie. and he was of course, brutally murdered on camera. where we're going to actually be talking to someone about thomas and car, or the key to fossil leader who was a voice for the global south was assassinated. for some people said linked to the cia. this biography says that it was a good efie who said, you have to eliminate sign kara, according to libby an interpreter. things aren't going well with her. and the u. s . embassy reported it was just affected with sunk. are included on the plan killing because some car would want to see to live in demands for someone who is behind the green movement on the liberation of africa. you believe that your old boss had anything to do with the killing of africa, che guevara reputedly? absolutely not, i actually even consulted with the leaders worked with my son got on

file we and other african leaders from the late seventy's out of the eighty's. we supported the revolutionary movement and working our fast so for years and years. and the revolutionary leaders, of course, you know, as a trained in libya and typically under the supervision of daffy himself. from the very beginning, we realized that there were in 10 and a conflict between the leaders of the book i solution. and we tried our best to the extent that we condition our support and held on a complex being eliminated and the unity of illusion. but as time passed, it clearly as well as to the tribe of back child 14, if i so, and different conflicting interests of the revolutionary leader. is that the

assassination of mass i'm kind of took place that he was very upset and that he said, well, what happened? but of course, decided to continue supporting the lucian and booking fossil because with our sadness for the loss of santa we had to continue the project of the african liberation. and we did that for many years to come. so this is just that, that he wasn't low and the assassination of such a great african lisa is that it was abraham. thank you. thank you very much. actually, after the breaks with 3 and a half 1000000, be in need of humanitarian assistance in the west african nation of became a faster this christmas eve, africa che guevara, thomas and kara, had not been assassinated and who killed him. we investigate all the small. can we have a pot to have going underground? ah,

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welcome back in the past few days, a prime minister affiliated to an ex president of the west african mineral rich nation of became a fair so suddenly resigned. christoph debir, i worked with blaze compar, whoever threw a man known as african che guevara, thomas and kara, joining me now from new york is his biographer, brian peterson, whose book thomas ankara. a revolutionary and cold war africa is out now. thank you so much, brian. for coming on just before we get to the man man himself, we were talking to the information minister of mammography. now advising safeguard afi, a head of christmas eaves elections in libya. m. e category me denies. any libyan involvement in the assassination of thomas and kara, before we get to who he is, why in your book do you claim a lots of links to were there? so the statements, one saying the elimination of st. kara was on the market of his raider,

where do you get all that from given? we've had this denial. yeah, i mean, i've, i've, you know, read through a lot of u. s embassy cables and talk to revolutionary leadership. a lot of the colleagues of thomas and kara from us, the car's uncle was the listen car was actually the birkenau bay ambassador to libya during the revolution and was, was very close to, lot of the action was going on there. and we know is it, you know, some cars relationship changed over time was cut off the, i mean, initially cannot be tried to, you know, helps and car resolve. certain economic problems cannot be helped us and car take power by providing weapons via gonna and you know, so the relationship was pretty solid initially, but it deteriorated rather rapidly. and, and, and mainly because the car didn't want to allow libya using berks bertina as a training base for a plan to warn liberia. and also some car refused accept the green books to sort of a guiding source. so you know, cut out, he was taylor, and also you mentioned that i'd want to hear it. i better say this, the in nature,

nation media. we don't even hear about africa except as regards charity and, and jose and basically they're poor. we see the loads of min was 4th largest, a gold exporter in, in africa, and i'm sure they will be campaigns, given the 2700000 have been forced to free their home study and 4400000 in need of humanitarian assistance. today, ad of ad of christmas, you're gonna have to tell us a, you know, the pandemic m. hm. catalyzed, concerned about i m f, restructuring plans of health services, who, who was thomas and kara. and why i suppose most relevant today to the global south as we suffolk, sharon of iris. why did he detest the idea of age from rich countries? i think that it was, you know, part of his policy to, you know, bring about a fair society, right. and so he had a vision that was very global and orientation. he saw the poverty, you know, in his country being rude in corruption of celtic, by french,

neo colonialism by extension. what, what he called imperialism which is to say the capitalist economy. and so he was fighting in the ways in which, you know, france used economic, military power in africa to maintain control over resource and political systems. and so obviously he blames, you know, the internal leadership, you know, what he saw corruption being in strictly linked imperialism. and so, you know, he was obviously taking on the world capitalist system, a system that, you know, had ensnared african countries in indebtedness. and so he took a stand against the repayment of the desk that went back to the colonial here. and so they're paying, you know, high interest rates like 20 percent interest rates on loans and debt. and so, you know, car wasn't against honoring debt against illegal or immoral debts that have been accrued by for our leaders. so actually, you know, i mean, he argued that france owed africa money, you know, so he was calling for african countries to come together in the united front to oppose debt repayment, while the i m f, a r a because of co it relaxing some of the debt repayment,

you mentioned france, i don't know whether there was front trends involvement in this so called african che guevara. when you were writing this book, we, you surprise the trans. i mean you got us cables that france still wants to keeps on kara. and kara dossier secret. now, i mean, i'm not surprised at all. what do they know? i, it's a good question. i mean in terms of francis roll, i mean in the crew of october 15, 1970. we have to see the evidence obviously. and what i've seen in the u. s. embassy cables and often talking to over a 100 people, is that, you know, france was continually seeking to undermine the revolution. and what i see in the u . s. documents is this, this pattern of french interventions along the line to undermine the revolution, tv stabilize the revolution, and eventually hoping to remove the car from power. i mean, we know that, you know, that the french government was considering military interventions from san car,

from power just a couple months after he took our himself and so their concerns were very broad. i mean, they were concerned about what was going on in shan libby involvement in the, in the region in chad, addis an area of cooperation with the americans. they weren't really not concerned about soviet expansion in the region, but they were concerned about libby and canadian in chad, especially in west africa. and so we also have to acknowledge, you know, the neighboring countries like called the foreign molly, were very concerned about the threat of the revolution. this, of the contagion of the revolution lead lake, and they come out of your book as us proxies. i have to say and you, you know, it's, i might say you're suspiciously nice to the cia in the sense that they see he's capricious with good afternoon libya. gorbachev doesn't like him very much and ok, washington politicians don't, likes ankara, but he doesn't pose a threat to cia activities in africa. this is an extension of your sworn policy. and we know that during the reagan administration,

i mean, they just effort to roll back the so called threat of communism. and so they saw san car, you know, hanging out. fidel castro remark adolphe and they were alarm. and so the americans and for the french, you know, the red line was really the expansion of libyan influence. i mean, so they took, they took, they were there, they're hostile towards some car. there's no question about it. you didn't have major economic interest in burkina faso and they cut most the funding. the piece cor was gone, they've been expelled by some car. so, you know, i think that, you know, there's a hostility was there. i don't see evidence that the cia had a sort of a guiding hand in assassination of some car. i haven't seen evidence of that. and let me just add that some car was very diplomatically isolated during the final period. i mean, compar, i took advantage of that and you had a large number cannot be soldiers for part of us growing into some carfax, within the military that saw your state powers of past self enrichment. he was really trying to oppose that. so he was fighting against corruption and soldiers

saw a chance to make the most of being in power. yeah, i mean, clearly a humble man given what you say about his own life and the importance of fighting corruption. how you do say, michelle, come to sue of the i m f. back then i met him once and the u. s. embassy, in the year of who is there, pressured him to accept new liberal policies. he refused, but at the same time he and even jerry lot rawlings who thought of is quite a good african lee. they died about a year ago in ghana. they were all, they were getting aid. i mean, the st car are getting aid from paris as opposed to the washington d. c. i m f o. well bank. right? i mean it's, it's true and it's, it's, and i appreciate you complicating the story because it is, it is very complex. i mean, at different points, the history france actually tried to work with some current, even tolerated quite a bit of revolutionary rhetoric. targeting france. well, you know, some car expected to be treated as an equal, as a peer head of state. you know, a fully sovereign country, so you know, he refused to accept his country,

being of vaseline is neo colonial relationship. and so some car, i mean, he knew that he couldn't break with, with france completely. i mean, the scene are the revolutionary state was still depending on foreign aid, as you suggest there, especially from france, about 3040 percent of the state budget came from france. right. so a transition to greater sovereignty to greater. you know, i'll talk you and i was going to take time, you know, in 4 short years i just wasn't possible. and so, you know, my research shows that it was some cars reluctance to accept and i m f, agree 1970 eventually led to many of the economic problems and a lot of political support within it the see in our and so he was hemorrhaging internal allies eventually that made easy for, for compar to take our well, the very watching this in begin of as are thinking of starting a revolution like thing, cars, i suppose they should be informed that african joe biden soldiers are probably there right now. what do you think? um, what he thinks the kara would think of the fact that africa us soldiers a tramping down down the country, especially in relation to the fact that he knew. and he took inspiration from cobra,

the crewman, mama, something in common with all these people, che guevara, that the, the marches as it were, of anti imperialist ideas in the global south. i mean, i mean, he was an anti imperialist. there's no question about it. i mean, he, he saw imperialism in a very more sort of complex way. i mean, you know, one of his, when in one of his major seems on appeal in imperialism is more of a cultural thing. i mean, obviously, there were truth landings. there were military interventions, those things were all a concern. i mean, didn't, he didn't see, you know, bertina faso is potentially dealing with the military invasion by the united states along the lines of granada or other place in the world, nicaragua, at the time. but i think that if you saw it was going on in burkina faso today is you're suggesting, i think he'd be deeply troubled. i, i think you'd be wanting the, the country to come together to deal with insurgency in the northern parts of virginia fossa, without the help of say, france, united states would, which in many ways just me the problem a lot worse. i mean, on the other side of the country, eritrea now allied with a v o b, a fighting

a valuable nation back t p l f. in again to grey. there's food security in eritrea pursuing an independent path with all the caveats that he thank ira did take 8. he took usaid relief, gimme the 8 things that are not associated with great revolutionary and ever after all, um, do you believe that it is legacy really lives on the fact that he wanted more participation from women in african societies all across the continent and his obsession with environmental politics, which arguably would fit in with good effie the importance of green politics. yes. i think those are really, really good points. i mean, i think that he has the car had a certain kind of vision of society, almost of utopian vision. you know, $11.00 in which you know, women to be equal to man and which, you know,

the citizens would be good custodians of their natural environment as you're suggesting. he was in the kitchen. yeah, i mean, i think there was a lot of pushback against that. i mean, you had this head of state who is preaching from this discourse and lobbying and pushing for women's liberation. but you had a kind of, a patriarchy from below. that was, was responding to that, so it, it actually was a huge liability for him. and he didn't have a very strong male constituency behind. and that was backing as feminist policies. but certainly that was one of the main pillars of the revolution was, was liberating. women and he went away, i don't know with this. and, you know, i think that, you know, it's one of the reasons why he's so pocket today and, and why he has a certain kind of legacy in a rather pressure one that you're mentioning there, respect to environmentalism, feminism taking on the challenging debt repayment. those sorts of things, i mean there's a certain saliency there that you see absent and other political figures from that era. i mean, obviously the situation that this christmas looks to be terrifying. i suppose,

a thought experiment. he was always supporting the anti apartheid struggle in south africa to building nelson mandela when he was in jail. if mandela had been released before his assassination during south african troops could have supported him. and the story might have been different in millions of people wouldn't be starving this christmas. in beginning it's difficult to say, i mean, you know, when, when, when police compared to power, he didn't depend on any foreign troops, right? i mean, at the time, you know, because of the franco burke and defense agreements, he only had like $25.00 french troops who are there, there are, there is trainers or the national on the remaining butch law. so you didn't have troops intervening. and he offered, as he didn't have a library interest, it was mainly to pull them, but the military muscle of a computer that enables him to take power. i do think, however, if you did have troops, you know, being entered, you know, on the other side of things that could have kept the balance and son car sierra. arguably, if he decided to play by the neo liberal rule of the game that the united states

and france were trying to foist on san car. he probably still be in power to the day or and if he was corrupt and issues crump good point. yes, dr. beasen, thank you. thank you so much. that's over the show will be back on wednesday when we investigate political violence. and colonial rule was one of the greatest living public intellectuals, my mood, mom, donnie, until then, human touch, my social media, and tell us who you think murdered thomas and kyra blue join me every thursday on the alex simon, sure. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world politics sport business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. mm hm.

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