from germany. melissa, thanks so much for coming back on. it's, it's the big news from libya not mentioned here in the british media. obviously, britain that took part in the aerial bombardment of your country, your reaction to the overturning of a decision. that was to disqualify safe. i'll get off a. well, this actually confirm what i have been saying through this very program for years that the will be and people will be victorious. and then what is happening now is that will it be and try the cities and towns are coming together slowly, but in a very fast way to liberate their country from foreign intervention, especially that of western europe. and islam is increasingly seen by mos libyans as they way out of this crisis. but it

presents the good history of libya. he is a young man, and he is project for the country is that of truth and reconciliation and peace for libya. and so we are very excited, unhappy, and this is not a step forward towards authority or the throne of libya. it's a step forward towards liberating the countries we have a machine 10 foreign military bases in libya, according to the united nations itself. and we have 20000 or in fighter on libyan land at this very moment. this is a country accumulation, and our 1st task is to liberate it. obviously, that's denied by the general authority back by the un security council. power is what about the fact that the general have to,

has also been allowed to run planning to report on election issues in the next few hours. he comes 3rd in a pull by the, the one institute. i don't know what you think of them. we all know about the think tanks and the and g o z in their views that arguably catalyze the destruction of your country. they've got abdomen debate, but you might have to explain who that is. save how good after the world knows who is actually for half a year. 14 percent after 7 percent, 49 percent a and $25.00 undecided. well that's just for everyone knows that you cannot conduct any shows full and opinion on. i live in libya because of the security situation. many b and cities and towns are under the control of violent malicious. so these are supposedly a opinion polls are done by p r companies and conducted by western

capitals who set the scene for the eventual victory. they hope for that agents, libya, if you actually listen and watch live in media out from all political sites, you will hear a general agreement on site that islam can that he has a wide popular support in the country. tiffany: islam is the only political candidate who speaks about for him and for once was against foreign intervention and who wants to be at united, peaceful and democratic. i want to ask you, who general after is, is a pharmacy i said in the nation, media is often talked about as being supported by egypt in russia. and i understand that there are reports that he tried to stop the ruling on save. i'll get after his ability to run by sending fighters to locate the court. and so, but i just have to,

this is a direct threat not to the libyan people, but to the ones who control the policy. you can see in the country and who are connected with foreign powers. you will notice actually, and that i always go back to mention in for an intervention, because this is the equation simply in libya. you cannot talk about the issue of democracy. politic can activity piece of prosperity for libyan without actually mentioning the major cause of what is happening in our homeland, which is military and political intervention from powerful nation basha and many, many other name. they have clearly aligned themselves, not with their own people at their own cities, i'm tried, but with, with foreign powers, they pick and choose between britain,

france by the faith or germany, or any country. this will only learn from the crisis in libya, as lamb is not against collaboration and understanding with the international community wants to stablish stuff, rim and strong libya that can have cooperative and beneficial relationships with everyone in africa in europe as well, but no prospect of a deal with, with his father's old, the ally who then they say will link to the ca with united side will come out and speak for himself very soon. but my understanding from my discussions with him and other people around him that he's hard. he's open for any p n one to truly create or bring back actually

a sofa and libya for olivia if either even the nature back candidate. i mean, maybe when it was part of the libyan government, even before 2011, not in a high ranking position, and he was a business man involved in some developmental projects in the country. and we know him very well. and if he decides to work for a united southern country, as he goes back to his roots as a truly been citizen, go back to peyton in the libyan process of development in the ninety's and the 2000 . then he is one of them. you see, we are not against individuals. we are against agenda. if you work for a liberated piece for the kinetic libya, then we work with you. but the problem is, isn't it given the interior minister and said that security threats in cyber put

the christmas e election is in doubt? i'd have to are, has a kind of veto. only to do is send fight is and then the interior minister in the jan able just go i know elections of christmas eve. well, think about this, actually. it's the only candidate who is insisting that the elections should take place in 2 weeks time. every other candidate is hoping for the elections to be postponed. now everyone else, every, every kind of has security very good security. they have malicious with them. they have armed groups. different islam is the only one who does not have malicious. supporting him, i'm 2 groups and he it with the security situation. being very hard for him. he insist, hey, support the election on the 24th of december. this is because he is so confident that the libyan people as well will be victorious. why? the other a scared of the peaceful, but if you can see,

and they want to respond the elections so they can make agreements with each other . they can consult their foreign masters. they can come back with the new ideas to listen there to stay in power. i was there groups in the east and the west of the country, quite apart from the military and catastrophe in libya, the thousands untold thousands drowning in the mediterranean since britain bomb your country, along the channel and between england and france as it beat any contact between the good every campaign and the total. any or shell? i mean it's refugees, but it's also about oil on the mediterranean. that's why you presumably unsafe, believe britain bomb. and the stabilized libya in the 1st place, not about humanitarian intervention at all, is no secret that libya was formed because of its a free can liberation project. and because of what he did inside leap

in terms of liberating the lip in economy liberating liberty and the orient from for in control in the future, we seek to bring back libya that, that is for libyans is of course, does not mean that we seek style or asians with the west or the east at we seek to work with our problem is because we knew contact rather than as we no contact here . as i understand. and we spoke to the boss of a black petroleum b, and i denied that he denied it was a in lithia, they have their guys and i'm hoping for either candidates to win over. but i assure everyone that's in the newly yeah. when islam reach is the position of the president, this new libya will be a peaceful land and

a member of the international community which would include economical gratian political corporation. but all based on a sovereign country, not on a satellite country belonging to the western powers. obviously, nato nations deny that they never wanted to control the oil. it was all about humanity. i'm going to ask you, given your information, minutes to, to mama get effie. and he was of course, brutally murdered on camera. where we're going to actually be talking to someone about thomas and car, or the key to fossil leader who was a voice for the global south was assassinated. for some people said linked to the cia. this biography says that it was a good efie who said, you have to eliminate signed kara, according to libby an interpreter. things aren't going well with her and that the u . s. embassy reported it was disaffected with sunk are included on the plan killing

. because some kara would want to see to live in demands, someone who is behind the green movement and the liberation of africa. do you believe that to your old boss had anything to do with the killing of africa? che guevara reputedly? absolutely not. i actually even consulted with the leaders, worked with my son got on his company. we and other african leaders from the late seventy's out of the eighty's. we supported the revolutionary movement and working our fast so for years and years and the revolutionary leaders of working on a train in libya and typically under the supervision of daffy himself. from the very beginning, we realized that there were in 10 and then the conflict between the leaders of the book i solution. and we tried our best to the extent that we condition

our support and held on a complex being eliminated and the unity of illusion. but as time passed, it clearly as well as to the tribe of back child 14, if i so, and different conflicting interests of the revolutionary leader. is that the assassination of mass i'm kind of took place that he was very upset and that he said, well, what happened? but of course, decided to continue supporting the lucian and booking fossil because with our sadness for the loss of santa we had to continue the project of the african liberation. and we did that for many years to come. so this is just that kathy wasn't low and the assassination of such a great african leader is that it was abraham. thank you. thank you very much.

actually after the break with 3 and a half 1000000, be in need of humanitarian assistance in the west african nation of again, a faster this christmas eve africa che guevara, thomas ankara had not been assassinated and who killed him. we investigate all of them. all. can we have a part to have going on the ground to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally and going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successfully, very critical time. time to sit down and talk scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. how can we distinguish the real science from the

one being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence, and discrediting even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. large corporations are challenged strongly by scientific evidence if you're emotionally invested and free markets, them climate change is a serious emotional threat because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries or on the war bond attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science writing science. that's how ignorant says manufacture their attention only seeking to the rail science rolling using science against the shell. mm. welcome back. in the past few days,

a i minister affiliated to an ex president of the west african mineral rich nation of akin affair. so suddenly resigned. christoph debir worked with blaise compar. whoever threw a man known as africa's che guevara, thomas and cora johnny. now from new york is his biographer, brian peterson, who's booked on the st. color, a revolutionary and cold war. africa is out now. thank you so much, brian. for coming on just before we get to the man man himself, we were talking to the information minister of mammography. now advising save gadhafi ahead of christmas eve's elections in libya. m. e. category me denies. any libyan involvement in the assassination of thomas and kara, before we get to who he is, why in your book do you claim lots of links to her? so the statements, one saying the elimination of st. kara was on the market of his raider. where do you get all that from given? we've had this denial. yeah, i mean i've, i've, you know, read through a lot of us embassy cables and talk to revolutionary leadership. a lot of the

colleagues us and kara, thomas and cars. uncle was the listen car was actually broken, ave ambassador to libya during the revolution and was, was very close to lot of the action was going on there. and we know is it, you know, some cars relationship changed over time with you. i mean, initially cannot be tried to, you know, helps, and car resolves, certain economic problems cannot be helped us on car take power by providing weapons via gonna and you know, so the relationship was pretty solid initially, but it deteriorated rather rapidly and, and, and mainly because some car didn't want to allow libya using berks bertina as a training base for a plan to warn liberia. and also some car refuse to accept the green book to sort of a guiding source. so you know, cut out, he was taylor, and also you mentioned that i want to hear it. i better say this, the nation media. we don't even hear about africa except as regards charity and and g o z. and basically they're poor. we see the loads of menus, 4th largest,

a gold exporter in, in africa, and i'm sure they will be campaigns, given the 2700000 have been forced to free their homes, 30 and 4400000 in need of humanitarian assistance. today, ad of ad of christmas, you're gonna have to tell us a, you know, the pandemic m. hm. capitalized concern about i m f, restructuring plans of health services, who, who was thomas and kara, and why i suppose most relevant today to the global south as we suffolk, sharon of iris. why did he detest the idea of age from rich countries? i think that it was, you know, part of his policy to, you know, bring about a fair society. right. and so he had a vision that was very global and orientation. he saw the poverty, you know, in his country being rude and corruption that facilitated by french, neo colonialism by extension. what, what he called imperialism which is to say, the capitalist world economy. and so, you know, he was fighting in the ways in which, you know, france used economic,

military power in africa to maintain control over resource and political systems. and so obviously he blames, you know, the internal leadership, you know, what he saw as being in strictly linked imperialism. and so, you know, he was obviously taking on the world capitalist system, a system that, you know, had ensnared african countries in indebtedness. and so he took a stand against the repayment of the went back to the colonial here. so they're paying, you know, high interest rates like 20 percent interest rates on loans and debt. and so, you know, car wasn't against honoring debt, but that was against illegal or immoral debts that have been accrued by for our leaders. so actually, you know, i mean, he argued that france of africa money, you know, so he was calling for african countries to come together in the united front to oppose debt repayment. while the i m f, a r a because of cove it relaxing, some of the debt repayments, you mention france. i don't know whether there was front trench involvement in this

so called african che guevara. when you're writing this book we you surprise the trans? yeah, i mean, you got us cables that france still wants to keep sun kara, and kara dossier secret. now, i mean, i'm not surprised at all. what are they coming out? i, it's a good question. i mean, in terms of francis roll, i mean in the crew of october 15, 1907. we have to see the evidence obviously. and what i've seen in the u. s. embassy cables, not talking to over a 100 people, is that, you know, france was continually speaking to undermine the revolution. and what are seeing the u. s. documents and this, this pattern of french interventions along the line to undermine the revolution, to stabilize the revolution. and eventually hoping to remove the car from power. i mean, we know that, you know, that the french government was considering military interventions from san car, from power. just a couple months after he took our himself. and so their concerns were very broad. i mean, they were concerned about what was going on in shan libby involvement in the,

in the region in chad, addis an area of cooperation with americans. they weren't really not concerned about soviet expansion in the region, but they were concerned about libyan canal fi in chad. especially in west africa, i and so we also have to acknowledge, you know, the neighboring countries called people. and molly were very concerned about the threat of the, the revolution this, of the contagion of the revolution lead. they can, they come out of your book as you, as proxies. i have to say, and you, you know, it's, i might say you're suspiciously nice to the cia in the sense that they see he's capricious with good afternoon libya. gorbachev doesn't like him very much. and ok, washington politicians don't, likes ankara, but he doesn't pose a threat to cia activities in africa. this is an extension of your sworn policy. and we know that during the reagan administration, they just effort to roll back the so called threat of communism. and so they saw some car, you know, hanging out. fidel castro remark adolphe and they were alarm. and so for the

americans and for the french, you know, the red line was really the expansion living influence. i mean, so they took, they took, they were there, they're hostile towards some car. there's no question about it. i'm, you didn't have major economic interest in burkina faso and they cut most the funding. the piece cor was gone. they've been expelled by some car. so, you know, i think that, you know, there's a hostility was there, i don't see evidence that the cia had a sort of a guiding hand in assassination of some car. i haven't seen evidence of that. and let me just added that. some car was very diplomatically isolated during the final period. i mean compar. i took advantage of that and you had a large number can be soldiers for part of us growing into some carfax, within the military that saw your state power of the past self enrichment. he was really trying to oppose that, so he was fighting against corruption, and soldier saw a chance to make the most of being in power. yeah, i mean, clearly a humble man given what you say about his own life and the importance of fighting

corruption. hum, you do save me shall come to sue of the i m f. back then i met him once and the u. s. embassy, in the year of who is there, pressured him to accept new liberal policies. he refused, but at the same time he and even jerry lot rawlings, who thought of as quite a good african lee. they died about a year ago in ghana. they were all, they were getting aid. i mean, the st car are getting aid from paris as opposed to the washington d. c. i am f o. well bank. right? i mean it's, it's true and it's, it's, and i appreciate you complicating the story because it is, it is very complex. so many different points in history, france actually tried to work with some current, even tolerated quite a bit of revolutionary rhetoric targeting france. but yes, the car expected to be treated as an equal as a peer head of state, you know, fully sovereign country. so, you know, he refused to accept his country, being a vassal in this neo colonial relationship. and so some car, i mean, he knew that he couldn't break with,

with france completely. i mean is seen are the revolutionary state, was still depending on foreign aid, as you suggest there, especially from france, about 3040 percent of the state budget came from france. right. so a transition to greater sovereignty to greater. you know, i'll talk you and i was going to take time, you know, in, for sure years i just wasn't possible. and so, you know, my research shows that it was in cars reluctance to accept. and i remember green 1970 eventually led to many of the economic problems and a lot of political support within it. the seen are and so he was hemorrhaging internal allies eventually not made easy for, for compar to take our weather any watching this in became of us are thinking of starting a revolution like than cars. i suppose they should be informed that african joe biden soldiers are probably there right now. what do you think? um, what you think sicaro would think of the fact that africa, us soldiers a tramping down down the country, especially in relation to the fact that he knew. and he took inspiration from cobra, the crewman. lemme something in common with all these people, che guevara,

that the, the marches as it were, of anti imperialist ideas in the global south. i mean, i mean, he was an anti imperialist. there's no question about it. i mean, he, he saw imperialism in a very more sort of complex way. i mean, you know, one of his, one in one of his major states on appeal in imperialism is more of a cultural thing. i mean, obviously, there were troop landings. there were military interventions, those things were all a concern. i mean, didn't, he didn't see, you know, bertina faso is potentially dealing with the military invasion by the united states along the lines of granada or other place in the world, nicaragua, at the time. but i think that if you saw it was going on and burkina faso today is you're suggesting, i think he'd be deeply trouble. and i think you'd be wanting the country to come together to deal with insurgency in the northern parts of virginia fossa, without the help of say, france, united states with which in many ways and just made the problem a lot worse. i mean, on the other side of the country, eritrea now allied with the v o, b, a fighting a valuable nation back t p l f. in to gray. there's food security in eritrea

pursuing an independent path with all the caveats that he thank ira did take 8. he took usaid really gimme the things that are not associated with great revolutionary and ever after all, um, do you believe that it is legacy really lives on the fact that he wanted more participation from women in african societies all across the continent. and his obsession with environmental politics, which arguably would fit in with good effie and the importance of green politics. yeah, i mean, i think those are really, really good points. i mean, i think that is a car had a certain kind of vision of society, almost of utopian vision. you know, $11.00 in which you know, women to be equal to man. and which, you know, the citizens would be good custodians of their natural environment as you're suggesting you want to live in the kitchen. yeah, i mean, i think there was

a lot of pushback against that. i mean, you had this had a state who is preaching feminine discourse and lobbying and pushing for women's liberation. but you had a kind of a patriarchy from below that was, was responding to that. so it, it actually was a huge liability for him. and he didn't have a very strong male constituency behind, and that was backing as feminist policies. but certainly that was one of the main pillars of the revolution was, was liberating women. and he went away, i don't align with this. and, you know, i think that, you know, it's one of the reasons why he's so pocket today and, and why he has a certain kind of legacy in a rather pressure one that you're mentioning there, respect to environmentalism, feminism taking on the challenging debt repayment. those sorts of things, i mean there's a certain saliency there that you see absent and other political figures from that era. i mean, obviously the situation that this christmas looks had to be terrifying. i suppose, a thought experiment. he was always supporting the anti apartheid struggle in south africa to building nelson mandela when he was in jail. if mandela had been released

before his assassination during south african troops could have supported him in the story might have been different in millions of people wouldn't be starving. this chris was in begin of answer. it's difficult to say, i mean, you know, when, when, when police compared to power, he didn't depend on any foreign troops. right? i mean, at the time, you know, because of the franco burke and i'll be defense agreements, he only had like 25 french troops who are there, there are, there is trainers or the national on the remaining burbridge law. so you didn't have troops, intervening, and operatives. you didn't have a library interest, it was mainly to pull them, but the military muscle of a computer that enabled him to take power. i do think, however, if you did have troops, you know, being enter on the other side of things that could have kept the balance on car saver. arguably, if you decided to play by the neo liberal rules, the game that the united states in france were trying to voice on my car, he probably still be in power to the day or and if he was corrupt and if he was

corrupt, good point. yes. dr. beasen, thank you. thank you so much. that's over the show will be back on wednesday when we investigate political violence. and colonial rule was one of the greatest living public intellectuals, my mood mom, dani until then even touch my social media and tell us who you think budded, thomas and car ah, ah. join me every thursday on the alex simon,

sure. i'll be speaking to guess when the world of politics spoke. business i'm show business. i'll see you then. oh right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that he's fatty and sugary and salty under thing. it's not at the individual level, it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that never change is obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm. so what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate with

the headlines and are you adding to growing cause for his resignation? the british prime minister boris johnson finds himself from further trouble over at christmas quiz party last year when strict code rules, band gatherings for everybody else or so to come up to a 100 fed, dead off to 20 days trip across several american states. but the disaster underlines the countries deep political divide to, with some politicians already trying to school points from the tragedy. and at the study p in 50 classic 1984 is getting the secret of source. this time from a feminist perspective, we discuss whether it's a timely update or with glimpse perhaps into the rewriting. i'm revisiting, which george will well at wound back. i don't see any reason why anybody shouldn't be subject to revisiting well in the smart world, among generally, what.