brougham ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm funeral about the west relations with russia or at record lows. and there is no reason to believe this will change any time soon, however, is a grand part impossible, as some have suggested. also as a bait of julian, a sorry, been sealed. ah, to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined my my guess here in moscow. maxine switch golf,

he is the director of the center for advanced american studies and moscow state institute of international relations. and we also have dmitri bob and she is a political analyst and editor and interest me internet media project. i generally cross and the bank, that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it. that's going to maxime 1st. we have the afterglow of the virtual summit, the biden, and putin had, it seems to me to been rather a dud. i mean, when you look at the read out from moscow in the, in the read out from washington, not a whole lot was said, but not a whole lot was agreed to. what do you, what do you, what's your takeaway, major, take away from the virtual summit, maxime, go ahead. well, it appears the to had a very top conversation. ukraine remains to be a major, someone block between us and russia, and perhaps we'll, we'll continue to be this stumbling block for some time. i think the major problem between moscow and washington at this point is that the nature of the relationship

has changed. fundamentally, since the cold war and they, it used to evolve around this, you know, arms control issue. and now, even though the arms control issue is still important, there are things like, you know, the world order where russia is not appreciated as a pure competitor to the united states and all the focus is on china. but russia is fierce as a major spoiler. even though i think if united states, you know, had to seriously considered its interest and security worldwide, they honestly wouldn't be a greater partner than russia, whether it comes to gutter, terrorism, or european security, or even for a pretty, you know, cynic, selfish reason says containing china i don't see the policy of pushing russia towards china by all distinctions and isolation and all kinds of stuff is really in us interest. but i'm very skeptical that things will get any better

anytime soon. i mean, you're always the voice of realism on this program and we really, really appreciate it because i couldn't agree with you more if. so what, what is getting in the way is an idea logical, is it an ideological position? they can, we can't get over or the washington and it's, i can't get over because it seems to me, it doesn't seem to be. ukraine is not part of nato. russia has made it very, very clear that it's a red line. after being promised, as a cold war was going to end the nature, whitney expanded all to expand in 700 miles to russia's doorstep. so id, ology is the, is the bone of contention. am i wrong or i think it's there is a mature of, of a bunch of factors here on one hand, it is always your, it was all that you really because i think you can see a bunch of examples where the same people or routing for ideological things are pretty fine with dealing in the print medic cents with other states that are not

put in my live democratic. so i the ology is a cover up for a greater geo politics and stuff. but again, like i said, i don't really see that pretty realistic geopolitical calculations kick in, even if only for one thing that you know, somebody wants to keep russia busy at its western front and not getting dish with china us, you know, fueling this, your brain crisis maybe in the interest, but honestly, i don't think it's in long term interest of the united states. what's been going on there if you and i've talked about what it would take to reorient and rushes relationship with the west and vice versa here. but the, the problem and the reason why i follow up with my question with maxine about ideology is the, is at this point in time, we look at the obama ministration, the trump administration, now the binding ministration in box themselves into a corner. because if you make a deal now it's called the peas man, did you make it?

they that they've done this, they've done this rhetorically and ideologically, it's really them. and then the a p, if it was an intentional leakage because i was always an anonymous source. you know, that by news basically quietly said to ukraine, because it was a, a call after the virtual summer saying, saying that, you know, you know, cool your heels, you're not going to get in for 10 years. i mean, it seems to me that they're the ones that are in the quandary here. russia made it very clear. it's position ok and, and they in washington doesn't know how to respond, particularly nato. go ahead. i just don't see any magic realism behind the mr. why don't sectional actions or the west in general. i mean, these are on for you, more christians, which they conveniently renamed. no, i'm in support to get more precious or something. it really, everyone sees that the pragmatic results wouldn't be worse. i'm in the united

states in a big china, i'm only china, also its allies, basically. i'm hungry and why the, these are important. i was. so i think the reasoning behind this is because i don't see how they had to state or they were being, you know, willing to gain anything by, for example, preaching any activity around to, you know, i energy crisis sonia if they registered i, boy, i'm now the prices will go down in mental oh us, you know, maybe days and then doing it, doing the openness. you know that the major theme in the german press during the last week was we can only pressure by saying that we are going to make notes to him to a project. this is not going to do with it has nothing to do with bread, pregnant. it's, you know, i,

your would be sticky and what's going on is that, you know, these people are trying to forget, he's pretty, i was, i was just puzzled by this article by carson lawyer in the washington boston. and that being in peace, you know, she is a german english historian and she basically attacked argue america for, for leg is this most into being finished and for been top and, and i'm going to call it because this is on the music guy just sense of can you deal all with germany as military as i'm going america has a date to pass that through. the descendants just didn't get and she didn't step to africa. well, i mean, this is, this is, i'm president and the guy here that, i mean, you should have no memory or it's military isn't. this is something you and you

know, what is very alarming is that new tree is actually answering the gum and what it takes from the back door if the knots. * is set with your period because well, blue and the people who are taking on burns, now it's much more sophisticated. we're more democratic than that. red green or the that where more echo would you mind if that makes us you period. and that allows us, for example, the green somehow and we can send you an arm free. and then the whole history around rush is going to bring tomorrow. we should make it clear to watch and he's going to buy a price. you know that there was this, it was like an option. what can we do? what you want to know if you had actually a brain, you know, very not to do a switch or ration from the sweep connection. it was a craziness that in general or the whole week. yes, i mean maxime, be the oddity of, you know,

bringing north stream to back into this. the only reason they have the one stream $1.00 and $2.00 is because ukraine ended up being an unreliable energy partner. as a transit country, that's the reason why i came and had nothing to do with ideology or anything else. it was brass tax and it was north for him to we have to remind our audience, it was the germans and asked for and it wasn't the russians to propose that it was the germans here. maxine nato was in a quandary right here because i have always argued on this program that if nato doesn't continue to expand it, it will have no reason to exist. and this is the quandary they have created for themselves. and what is happen? i thought international relations was about compromise, quid pro quo, all these kinds of things here. but there's no, there's no way in to have a pragmatic conversation. it's the, it's always, i mean, remember the foreign minister, the soviet for minister romito. he was mr. me. yes. well, nato and the western alliance become mr. net into 2021. well, 1st of all,

i think we have to tell our listeners that the major perception of nature in russia, that it's not kind of a collective military of political aligns per se, as more of the euphemism for american military presence in europe. so that has to be clear that when moscow does not really, especially in the last few years, does not really feel like talking to any european power but wants to reach out directly to washington d. c. that is a clear reflection of the russian understanding of who is really a pulling the strings behind this whole organization. secondly, for a major political military alliance to exist after its initial kind of stage, it's important for it to have a new agenda and the new members. so the new agenda that the americans apparently had try to promote with europeans was containing china, which is hard to do with an ally and such as need to, you know,

and therefore this idea of, you know, research and or assertive russia is back in the game so the more chaos and conflict is around russia, the more ideological or see political reason there is for needed to exist. and finally, you need to have these new members. and the, some point you end up with, you know, you know, with these members actually work in the tail talent, major nato allies, such as the united states in western european. so what their priorities should be, how dangerous russia is, by merely you know, pushing their own agenda and they're all store of traumas into the, which is i think on acceptable. and then, and, you know, kind of, yeah, i see, you're absolutely right. and the, the greatest nightmare of these countries is that they would be a, an overture to washington over their head. this is something that i'm eastern

europe, but they all go back to the treaty of versailles. i mean, you know, you know, you, you recognize this nation states, but you don't do anything to protect our security and the same thing as repeating itself all over again. and at the end of the day, gentlemen, it is washing in the calls, the shots. it's there, it's their military alliance. and when the germans and the french drag their feet there listen to, but other countries not deem of finish up on this point before we go to the break. well, she's going to be very diplomatic. i'm just trying to get mad at me, but anyway, it's not a, he's a scholar, you know, go ahead. you know, i'm thinking in simple terms. me just make all the have a line out of the headline. so then, you know, last week we should treat russia a state and then a number of lines in the pony express, which i also read in the original same ration me make a secret deal permanent with france or within the state or out. so this is

insane because the east european got this in the situation and any chance for dialogue, you mean, i mean, i'm going america, am i going to want to have a meeting with and who bought it? it was the east european campus. so we have this terrible situation around because it wants to rush or from the side of the states and from western europe is strength, not long. but by that you're from the east european. i been here, we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on some real news. stay with our team. with

join me every thursday on the alex salmon show. and i'll be speaking to guests in the world, the politics sport. business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. me . oh, driven by tremendous shapes, banks, concur. some of those with dares sinks, we dare to ask and scientific knowledge has never been so readily available to everyone across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. we can, we distinguish the real science from the one being imposed upon us. we're living in

a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence, and discredit, even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goals. large corporations are challenged strongly by scientific evidence. if you're emotionally invested and free markets, then climate change is a serious emotional threat. because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries or on the war bar, attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science and lighting science. that's how ignorant is manufactured their attention only seeking to the rail. fine, rolling using sy against the cell. ah, well, the next across that were all things are considered non peter labelle. this is the

home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real nose. ah. going to come back to maxime here in moscow. let's change gears over the past week we julianna's and that the fact that the julius, i will be expedited to the united states so much is much closer to reality. now, with the court's decision in the u. k, the, the interesting thing about what's his expedition fight against being sent to the united states. if this happened, this trial happened. court proceeding happened during the quote unquote democracy summit. joe biden was leading an international human rights day. i mean, the irony of ironies here i am covering the story. i have covered it from the very, very beginning because most western media don't want to cover it in the irony of

that is that they love julian assange for years. they loved weekly leaks for years, and now journalists have turned their back on him. on the day of an international human rights. he's a prominent person that has been denied his. the hypocrisy is breathtaking. go ahead. well, i think it's very important that you mentioned that the, the summit of democracy here because it not only is just an attempt on part of the united states to research local institutions and in a way to replace the national security council, the united nations with democracy leak in the long term, but it's also a way to reset it's domestic image, especially following a issue with the attacker, with the transporters, entering congress in january that created a lot of, you know, on the democrats and saying, well, you know,

american democracy in crisis. so that in a way is, is very important to show that internal domestic terrorist as they can label our are those who are whistleblowers really who are talking to wrongs of the internal system. generally in the west has to pay the price for not supporting the general image of, you know, a solid in term of democracy with integrity or the western side with integrity. so i think our sounds really is a cation point here. and he feel free to these to master battle as also as international battle. it didn't let me, i'm really glad that this was brought up. that maxine brought this up because was very curious to me is that this the summit was about promoting democracy. but in my opinion, it wasn't ok, i think 1st of all it was a sham number one. but number 2, what it is is that it's a defensive reaction on part of the neo liberal elite. this is what this is about

democracy. i mean, the ukraine was invited to this on the united states and its allies over through a democratically elected government in ukraine, in february of 2014, in this calendar year. affording that the democratic will, the people have been, is wally in nicaragua. so this is all about neo liberalism and maintaining the status quo. and maxime is absolutely right. it is. this is a on a front to the united nations. it's in front of the united nations security council . what they want to do and what and what doing essential reported on the crimes neoliberalism. go ahead demo our i think you're quite right, a summit. just want to share. i mean, when representatives of your grade i see on the panel discussion corruption. i mean, like, as far as i remember there were 2 sent by the conference. authoritarian regimes

now focus yes. and i can corruption, you know, wow, do it on a start. if you look at the amount of materials that you provided on corruption inside the form, doing it not only in the western package, but you know, we can support what international breast you use the massively. and you are absolutely right. it's the same when the people who use even pro technical point of view, they use the research done by weeks. and now that will pre, asking to be one step closer to be extradited from the states. it's awful and i agree with my see him that basically the aim. oh, that sounds fair is to scare people. i mean, don't you even think about becoming a bond whistle bought a little bit too much. know that he barely escaped. he's living in the rush. he's

safe by the way, i want to make us suffer. and unfortunately, i think they will ever notice if it was 2015 since i am not a single person or the same stager as a song or no the same live because it is so dangerous it is so on a being in now 3 young people, you know, yeah, you're probably going to be a separate yet, but i do want to be having the same destiny as the bradley chelsea manning or the same death me twice before and. and i agree with you the fact the whole think going sided with this one for and so she's just next thing. but again, you know, the rule of law here, i mean, the condition that the, the, the british corp believed the,

the american position that, that he would get a fair trial that his confinement would be not extraordinary, like superman or something like that. i mean, i don't know why a british court would believe any thing about the day when it comes to julie massage, because this is, this is not even, it is not even really political in the sense that, you know, if it's not trump versus buying or biting versus obama. this is the national security state, and the rule of law means nothing to them. they will, they will get what they want. and that's the message that they're sending out. the british court is prompted and i think it's really shameful on part of the british authorities, because once he's out of their custody, they have no control over what is going to happen to him whatsoever. they can say, well, send him back. mean, once the plane is off the tarmac, it's over and i seriously doubt that will ever know what will, what will eventually happen to julianna's knowledge because national security

reasons. ok. and then again, rule of law and the in the human rights of one individual on display for the whole world to see, go ahead max will. sure. i also think the problem is that the julian assange for some time ago became a hot potato issue for any government the 20 to deal with him. so that at some point the government ecuador was pressured to the point because they don't really have this major strategic sovereignty to stand up to the pressure of the kind of anglo saxon giants. and then the british also didn't want to deal with him because they thought, you know, that they did the sooner we get rid of him and it's not, it's no longer our problem. obviously, his fate is, i think, very, you know, to be, to be worried about. and that, i think he's, he's case should be a reminder of the danger of the unit world. and the unit poll dominance of snowden was also mentioned, there was perhaps more lucky to find shelter in russia,

even though it wasn't his choice, right. he ended up here and was lucky enough that he can, he can find security here. others that's, that's a big issue. because there is no really to hide for this was for a while worse inside western system. so because you know, as a sub game shows that they could be traced and found, and that's exactly speaks to the sales care for care of them all for principal or for philosophy. if there was a time when we leaks were celebrated and julianna's orange was celebrated by journalist by the major broad feeds they made a lot of money off of him. off of leaks hard work, which i'd like to point out to everyone we leaks as a sterling record for forgetting it. right. probably no other news organization in the world can compare themselves to the accuracy of it. and that's the big problem,

isn't edema because doing it and we can lead to the job. the journalists are supposed to do. ok, but they don't do it anymore. they carry water for power and they don't. and, and doing the sciences an inconvenient for individual, inconvenient organisation week in weeks because it shows just how pitiful their their profession is and they are as journalist. go ahead. well, you're right, it's a guilty conscience, you know, the quantum. so on the western need yet, i mean, let's remember, our sounds, diesel, why? it's single time. they didn't change a single letter, a single word in what they report that you know, the weeks and what did with the waste immediate in 20022003000 so needed all of the west. we're saying the same trend. so my struction, they never would just so these people live and they get surprises for the things

like russia gave for the reports from the middle east. that said, you know, no one wants to send them to jail and they live in junior, for years. and our sons, who didn't live single time, is no patient such as table weight. so that's why i think the mainstream media was together because it's so we can, you know, into mind them or their own since the same story without, you know, the, i mean, they published stuff and it turned out to be co send out to be right. all these millions old recording so full of investigations in spain, in problems. they've been ongoing medical school based. all right, but he's a criminal some calls and these journalists were surprised maxine, rapidly running out of time, you brought up the unipolar world. it's interesting this democracy summit, the fate of, of julianna's, i, i think this all of that as

a defensive position because the uniform moment is gone. it's over. but the american foreign policy leads and their accolades around the world. they refused to accept that. and this democracy summit was a self reassuring i think you were still in charge and we still control the global narrative, but it's not true, it's facade, and i think it's a weakness on their part last minute. go see you my friend go. i think that's exactly the point here. the very idea is not new. and the idea to host this summit right now is blown to time to return to the comfort zone of early 99 is following the breakup of the soviet union, but there is no longer this comfort zone in today's world. and that's a problem for everyone. and i would say on, on top of that is that, um, well we look at the by been ministration. they're looking for some kind of foreign policy success. and if they're gonna hang their hat on this summit or the

complexity of complexities of ukraine, i think they're sorely going to be sorry, unless they want to force some issue here. gentlemen, that's all the time we want to thank my guest here in moscow, and i think our viewers are watching us here. are the see you next. i'm remember rock rolls. ah ah ah. is your media reflection of reality? ah, in the world transformed what will make you feel safer? high solutions for community. are you going the right way or are you being

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