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ah ah hello and welcome to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm funeral about the west relations with russia or it record lows, and there is no reason to believe this will change any time soon, however, is a grand bar impossible, as some have suggested also as a date of julian, a sorry, been sealed? ah. to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guest here in moscow. maxine switch golf, he is the director of the center for advanced american studies and moscow state institute of international relations. and we also have dmitri bob and she is a political analyst and editor and interest me internet media project. i gentleman

cross problems and effect, that means you can jump any time you want. and i always appreciate it. or that's going to maxime 1st. we have the afterglow of the virtual summit, the biden, and putin had it seems to me to been rather a dud. i mean, when you look at the read out from moscow in the, in the read out from washington, not a whole lot was said, but not a whole lot was agreed to. what do you, what are your, what's your takeaway major? take away from the virtual summit, maxime, go ahead with the, to had a very top conversation. ukraine remains to be a major sunblock between us and russia. and perhaps we'll, we'll, we'll continue to, to be this made up for some time. i think the major problem between moscow in washington, at this point is that the nature of the relationship has changed fundamentally since the cold war. and they, it used to evolve around his, you know, arms control issue. and now, even though the arms control issue is still important,

there, things like the, you know, the world order where russia is not appreciated as a pure competitor to the united states. and all the focus is on china. but russia is fierce as a major spoiler, even though i think if united states, you know, have to seriously considered its interest and security worldwide. they honestly wouldn't be a greater partner than russia, whether it comes to counter terrorism or european security, or even for a pretty, you know, cynic, selfish reason says, containing china. i don't see the policy of pushing russia towards china by all distinctions and isolation and all kinds of stuff is really in us interest. but i'm very skeptical that things will get any better anytime soon. i mean, you're always the voice of realism on this program and we really, really appreciate it because i couldn't agree with you more. so what,

what is getting in the way? it's an idea, logical, is it an ideological position? they can, we can't get over or the washington and it's, i can't get over because it seems to me, it doesn't seem to be. ukraine is not part of nato. russia has made it very, very clear that it's a red line. after being promised, as a cold war was going to end the nature, whitney expanded all to expand in 700 miles to russia's doorstep. so id, ology is the, is the bone of contention. am i wrong or i think it's, there's a mature of, of a bunch of factors here on one hand, it is always your, it was all that you really, i think you can see a bunch of examples where the same people or routing for ideological things are pretty fine with dealing in a bad experience with others face that are not put in my live democratic. so i the ology is a cover up for a greater geo politics and stuff. but again, like i said,

i don't really see that pretty realistic geopolitical calculations. you can even if only for one thing that you know, somebody wants to keep russia, b, c at its western front and not getting dish with china dust. you know, fueling this, your brain crisis maybe in the interest. but honestly, i don't think it's in long term interest of the united states. what's been going on there if you and i've talked about what it would take to reorient and rushes relationship with the west and vice versa here. but the problem, and the reason why i followed up with my question with maxine about ideology is the, is at this point in time, we look at the obama ministration for the trumpet, ministration. now the binding ministration, the boss themselves into a corner. because if you make a deal now it's called the p man did munich it, they did, they have done this, they've done this rhetorically and ideologically, it's really them. and then the a p, if it was an intentional league,

because i was always anonymous source. you know, that by news basically quietly said to ukraine, because it was a call after the virtual summit st saying that, you know, you know, cool your heels. you're not going to get in for 10 years. i mean, it seems to me that they're the ones that are in the quandary here. russia made it very clear. it's position ok and, and they in washington doesn't know how to respond, particularly nato. go ahead. i just don't see any magic realism behind the mr. vinyl sections and the actual, the west in general. i mean, this one for more christian, which they conveniently renamed. no, i'm in support of the more precious or something. it really, everyone sees that the pragmatic results wouldn't be worse. i'm in the united states, in a big china, i'm only china also its allies. basically. i'm hungry when loads and why the, these are important i was. so i think the reasoning behind this is

because i don't see how they lead to state or they were being, you know, willing to gain anything by, for example, preaching any activity around to, you know, i energy crisis in the solution is sonia if they register i boy, and now the prices will go down in mental oh us, you know, maybe days and then not doing it doing it. you know that the major in the german press during the last week was we can only pressure by saying that we are going to make notes to him to a project. not going to do with it has nothing to do with bread. pregnant is fewer division. i your g, christina key and what's going on is that, you know, these people are trying to forget pretty i was. i was just puzzled by this article

by katya lawyer in the washington post. it's an opinion piece. you know, she is a german english historian and she basically attacked argue america for, for leg is this most into being finished and for been top and, and i'm going to call it because. ready this is on crow haps, out of music guy, just sense continue. deal all with germany is military isn't. i'm going to america, chris, a data well, you know, to pass that through the standards just didn't get and she didn't to africa. well, i mean, this is, this is, i'm president and the guy here that i'm, you should have no, ma'am, are you always military isn't? this is something you and you know, what is very alignment is that military is actually answering the drum and what it takes from the back door. if the knots is sad with you period, because well, the,

the people who are taking on rules now it's much more sophisticated. we're more democratic where green is that, where more ecological mind that makes us you period. and that allows us, for example, the green somehow, and we can send you an honest, really. and then the whole history around rush is going to bring tomorrow. we should make it clear to watch and he's going to buy a price. you know that there was this, it was like an option. what can we do? you want an actual brain, you know, very most him to a ration from this connection. it was a reason that in general or the for week. yes. i mean, maxine, the, the oddity of, you know, bringing north stream to back into this, the only reason they have the one stream one and 2 is because ukraine ended up being an unreliable energy partner as a transit country. that's the reason why i came and had nothing to do with ideology

or anything else. and it was brass tax and it was north for him to we have to remind our audience. it was the germans that asked for. it wasn't the russians to propose that it was the germans here. maxine nato was in a quandary right here because i have always argued on this program that if nato doesn't continue to expand, it will have no reason to exist. and this is the quandary they have created for themselves. and what is happen? i thought international relations was about compromise, quid pro quo, all these kinds of things here. but there's no, there's no way in to have a pragmatic conversation. it's the, it's always, i mean, remember the foreign minister, the soviet for minister romito. he was mr. me, yes. well, nato and the went to the alliance become mr. net into a 2021. well, 1st of all, i think we have to tell our listeners that the major perception of need to it in russia, that it's not kind of a collective military of political alliance, per se,

as more of the youth and ms. and for american military presence in europe. so that has to be clear that when moscow does not really, especially in the last few years, does not really feel like talking to any european power but wants to reach out directly to washington d. c. that is a clear reflection of the russian understanding of who is really a pulling the strings you know, behind this whole organization. secondly, for a major political military alliance to exist after its initial kind of stage, it's important for it to have a new agenda and the new members. so the new agenda that the americans are apparently and try to promote with europeans was containing china, which is hard to do with an ally and such as needed to, you know, and therefore this idea of, you know, research and or assertive russia is back in the game, so the more chaos and conflict is around russia,

the more ideological or st. political reason there is for me to texas. and finally, you need to have this new members. and at some point you end up with, you know, what, you know, with these members actually work in detail. the talent, major nato allies, such as the united states in western european. so what their priorities should be, how dangerous russia is, by merely you know, pushing their own agenda and they're all history of traumas into the, which is i think on acceptable and then, and, you know, kind of, yeah, i see, you're absolutely right. and the, the greatest nightmare of these countries is that there would be a, an overture to washington over their head. this is something that i'm eastern european. i'll go back to the treaty of versailles. i mean, you know, you know, you, you recognize this nation states. but you don't do anything to protect our security and the same thing is repeating itself all over again. and at the end of the day,

gentlemen, it is washing in the calls, the shots. it's there, it's their military alliance. and when the germans and the french drag their feet there listen to, but other countries not deem of finish up on this point before we go to the break. well, a, me, but anyway, it's not a, he's a scholar, you know, go ahead, you know, i'm thinking in simple terms, me just make all the handle. i'm out of the headlines then, you know, last week we should treat russia a state and then a number of credit lines in the 40 friends, which i also read in the original same russian, me make a secret deal permanent with france over the states all. so this is insane because the european got this issue and a chance for dialogue. you mean, i mean, i'm going america and my going to want to kind of meet with you and who it was in

the east european countries. so we have this terrible situation around because you want to rush or from the side of the united states and from western europe is strength, not long down, but by the if you're from the east european got to go in here, we're going to go to a heartbreak and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on some real new stay with our team. ah ah ah oh, is your media a reflection of reality? ah, in a world transformed what will make you feel safe? isolation, whole community. are you going the right way?

where are you being that direct? what is true? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to descend a join us in the depths or remain in the shallows. ah

ah well the magic cross that we're all things are consider 9 people a bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real news with this. go back to maxime here in moscow. let's change gears over the past week. we julianna's, and that the fact that the julius, i should be expedited to the united states to so much is much closer to reality. now, with the court's decision in the u. k. the, the interesting thing about what's his expedition fight against being sent to the united states. if this happened, this trial happened. court proceeding happened during the quote unquote democracy summit. joe biden was leading an international human rights day. i mean,

the irony of ironies here i am covering the story. i have covered it from the very, very beginning because most western media don't want to cover it in the irony of that is that they love julianna's songs for years. they loved weekly leaks for years, and now journalists have turned their back on him. on the day of an international human rights. he's a prominent person that has been denied his. the hypocrisy is breathtaking. go ahead. well, i think it's very important that you mentioned that the, the summit of democracy here because it not only is just an attempt on part of the united states to research local institutions. and in a way to replace the national security council, the united nations with this mocker. c leak in the long term. but it's also a way to reset it's domestic image, especially following a issue with the attacker with the transporters,

entering congress and january that's created. so a lot of, you know, on the democrats and saying, well, you know, american democracy in crisis. so not in a way is, is it's very important to show that internal domestic terrorist has this. they can label our are those who are whistleblowers really are talking about ranks of the internal system generally in the west has to pay the price for not supporting the general image of, you know, a solid inter democracy with integrity or western side with integrity. so i think our sounds really is cation point here, and he feel free to these are domestic battle as also as international battle. it didn't let me, i'm really glad that this was brought up. that might say brought this up because it's very curious to me is that this summer was about promoting democracy. but in

my opinion, it wasn't ok. i think 1st of all it was a sham number one. but number 2, what it is is that it's a defensive reaction on part of the neo liberal elite. this is what this is about democracy. i mean, the ukraine was invited to this conference, but the united states and its allies over through a democratically elected government in ukraine, in february of 2014, in this calendar year. affording that the democratic will, the people have been, is wally in nicaragua. so this is all about neo liberalism and maintaining the status quo. and maxine is absolutely right. it is, this is a on a front to the united nations. it's in front of the united nations security council where they want to do and what and we're doing aside to report it on the crimes neoliberalism. go ahead, the more our i think you're quite right, a just want to share. i mean, when representatives of your grade,

i see you know, the panel discussion corruption. i mean like, as far as i remember there were 2 goals set by the conference after the authoritarian regimes called our focus. yes. and i didn't corruption, you know, well do it on a starts, if you look at wiki leaves, the amount of materials that you provided on corruption in size, the former soviet union, not only in the west, but you know, we can support what, how can breast use the massively and you are absolutely right. it's the same when the people who use even from a technical point of view, they use the research done by week. and now that will create, can do i found to be one step closer to be extradited to the states? it's awful and i quite agree with my see him that basically the aim,

all that sounds fair is to scare people. i mean, don't you even think about becoming a bond more whistle bought a little bit, much know them? he barely escaped. he's leaving them even safe by the way. i want to make us suffer. and unfortunately, i think they will ever notice if there was 2015 since then not a single person or the same stager as a song or snowed simply because it is so dangerous it is. so i've been in now 3 young people, you know? yeah, you're probably going to be a separate but i don't want to be you know, having the same destiny as the bradley chelsea remaining or the same thing twice before and. and i agree with you the fact the whole think going cited with this one for. and so she's just the next thing. but

again, you know, the rule of law here, i mean, the condition, the quote of the, the british court, i believe, of the, the american position that, that he would get a fair trial that his, i can find it would be not extraordinary. like super max or something like that. i mean, i don't know why a british court would believe anything about the d o j. when it comes to julian, astonished because this is, this is not even, it is not even really political in the sense that, you know, if it's not trump versus buying, you're biting versus obama. this is the national security state, and the rule of law means nothing to them. they will, they will get what they want. and that's the message that they're sending out. the british court just punted and i think it's really shameful on part of the british authorities. because once he's out of their custody, they have no control over what is going to happen to him whatsoever. they can say,

well, send him back. i mean, once the plane is off the tarmac, it's over and i seriously doubt that will ever know what will, what will eventually happen to julie massage because national security reasons. ok . and then again, rule of law and the in the human rights of one individual on display for the whole world to see go ahead. maxine will. sure. i also think the problem is that the julian assange sometime ago became a hospital issue for any government that wanted to deal with him. so that at some point the government ecuador was pressured to the point because they don't really have this major strategic sovereignty to stand up to the pressure of the kind of anglo saxon giants. and then the british also didn't want to deal with him because they thought, you know, that they did the sooner we get rid of him and it's no longer our problem. obviously his fate is i think, very, you know, to be, to be worried about. and that i think he's, he's case should be

a reminder of the danger of the unit for and the unicorn dominance of snowdon, who was also mentioned, there was perhaps more lucky to find shelter in russia, even though it wasn't his voice. right. he ended up here and was lucky enough that he can, he can this find security here. others that's, that's a big issue because there is no really a place to hide for these was wars inside western systems are because, you know, as a sun k shows that they could be traced and found and, and that's exactly speaks to this, you know, scare, uh, scary them all for principal who are for more philosophy. if there was a time when we leaks were celebrated and julianna's orange was celebrated by journalist by the major broad feeds, they made a lot of money off of him, off of wiki leagues hard work, which i like to point out to everyone we lease as

a sterling record for, for getting it right. probably no other news organization in the world can compare themselves to the accuracy of it. and that's the big problem, isn't edema because doing this and we can, we did the job. the journalists are supposed to do. ok, but they don't do it anymore. they carry water power and they don't and, and doing the science is an inconvenient for individual inconvenient organization weekly weeks because it shows just how pitiful their their profession is and they are, as journalists go ahead, you are right. it's a guilty conscience, you know the quantity on the west need yet. i mean, let's remember our sounds, diesel lie a single time. they didn't change a single letter, a single work in what they report that you know, the weeks. and what did we start with? the waste immediate in 20022003000 so needed all of the west were saying that

saddam hussein turned back on. so my instruction, they never would just, so these people, why and they were surprises for the things like russia gave for the reports from the lease that said, you know, no one wants to send them to jail. and they live in junior for years. and our phones who didn't live single time is no patient such as table weight. so that's why i think the mainstream media wants to forget that because it's so we can, you know, you remind them on their own since the same story with that. but, you know, the, i mean, they probably, if you stop and it turned out to me how it's going to be right. all these millions . so recording, so open positions in spain, in prompts. they've been ongoing medical school based. all right. but he's agreement or some college and these journalists are, were you surprised maxine,

rapidly running out of time, you brought up the unipolar world. it's interesting this democracy summit, the fate of, of julianna's, i, i think this all of that as a defensive position because the whole moment is gone. it's over. but american foreign policy leads and their acolytes around the world, they refused to accept that. and this democracy for some, it was a self reassuring that you were still in charge and we still control the global narrative. but it's not true, it's facade, and i think it's a weakness on their part last minute. go see my friend go. i think that's exactly the point here, the very idea new and the idea to host this summit right now is a blunt attempt to return to the comfort zone of early ninety's following the break up of the soviet union. but there is no longer this comfort zone. in today's world, and that's a problem for everyone. and i would say on top of that is that we look

at the biden ministration. they're looking for some kind of foreign policy success . and if they're going to hang their hat on this summit or the complexity complexities of ukraine, i think they're sorely going to be sorry, unless they want to force some issue here. gentlemen, that's all the time we have want to thank my guest here in moscow, and i think our viewers are watching us here are dcx. i'm remember rock rolls. ah ah ah right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that he's fuzzy and sugary and salty and addicted. not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go

on believing that will never change this obesity epidemic, that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment. mm hm. what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate with . there's things we dared to ask in a

ah, tonight made speculation of the situation in ukraine and accusations toward russia . let him a potent house, a telephone conversation with britain's prime minister barak johnson, urging from major talks to stop further nato expansion towards russia's borders up to a 100 feet dead after tornadoes rip across american states over the weekend. but the disaster also underlines the countries deep political divide to with some politicians already trying to score points from the tragedy. and the sudanese who say they've been betrayed and had their dreams destroyed with a special report coming up into the 1000 strong protest gripping the capital there since october's cooper.