5 years to the day since the un security council adopted resolution to $3.00 to $3.00, reaffirming a strong commitment to the sovereignty independence, territorial integrity and national unity of africa's riches began to country libya coming up in the show. 10 years after nature destruction and declarations of victory in libya after the murder of lead and warmer gadhafi, could his son safe be elected president? this christmas we talked to margaret of his information minister about securing judicial support in the oil rich country for his candidacy and his millions face humanitarian catastrophe, and displacement in the form of french west african colony of akina faso days of countries. prime minister was fired. we investigate the country's assassinated leader, often called africa's che guevara, thomas sand. kara, all this of all coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, this month on christmas eve elections will take place in libya, formerly africa's richest per capita, nation before destruction, by nato nations. like britain and france in 2011. but now one candidate is promising to put power back in the hands of the libyan people. after

a decade of imperialist foreign intervention, that candidate is safe on his land gadhafi and the b as for information minister was abraham joins me now from germany. i minister, thanks so much for coming back on. it's a big news from libby and not to mentioned here. in the british media, obviously, britain that took part in the aerial bombardment of your country. um your reaction to the overturning of a decision that there was to disqualify safe. i'll gadhafi. well, this actually confirms what i have been saying with this very program for years that the will over they live be and people will be victoria. so then what is happening now is that the libyan tribes lippy and cities and towns are coming together slowly. but in a very, a steadfast way to liberate their country from foreign intervention, especially that all western europe and safer asli is increasingly seen

by most libyans, as they way out of this, a crisis definite slam represents the good history of nivia. and he is a young man and he's project for the country, is that all truth and reconciliation and peace or on libyan so we are very excited and heavy and this is not a step forward towards authority or the throne of libya. it's a step forward towards liberating the country. we have seen 10 foreign military bases and libya according to the united nations itself. and we have 20000 or in fighters on libya land at this very moment. this is a country accumulation, and our 1st task is to liberate it. always, it has been denied by the general authority backed by the un security council

powers. i. what about the fact that the general after who's also been allowed to run planning to report on election issues in the next few hours? he comes 3rd in a pull by the d one institute. i don't know what you think of them. we all know about the think tanks and the n g o is in their views that arguably catalyze the destruction of your country. they've got abdomen debatable. you might have to explain who that is safe. i'll get out of who the world knows who is actually for after a year. 14 percent after 7 percent, 49 percent that maybe and $25.00 undecided? well that's just for everyone knows that you cannot conduct any shows full and opinion on. i live in libya because of the security situations. many to be in cities and towns are under the control of violent militia.

so these supposedly beast opinion polls are done by p. r companies and conducted by west and kevin said the scene for the eventual victory, the whole, for the agent, the libya. if you actually listen and watch libyan media outlet from all political side, you will hear a general agreement from all sides that say if it has the light is popular support in the country. if it is not, is the only political candidates who speaks about 4 and for once again, for an intervention, and who wants libya united, peaceful and democratic? i want to ask you who general half are is, is a former c i a s, as in the nature nation, media is often talked about as being supported by egypt, the u. a in russia. and i understand that there are reports that he tried to stop

the ruling on, say, paul, good feasibility to run by sending fighters to blockade the court in cyber. not just half tar syphilis. lamb is a direct threat not to the libyan people, but to the ones who control the point. if you can see and the country and who are connected with foreign powers, you will notice actually that i always go back to mention in for an intervention, because this is the equation simply in libya. you cannot talk about the issue of democracy. police can activity piece of prosperity for libyan without actually mentioning the major cause of what is happening in our homeland, which is military and political intervention from powerful nation. have the baby basha and many, many other name. they have clearly ally in themselves,

not with their own people and their own cities untried, but with, with foreign powers, they pick and choose between britain promised by the faith or germany or any of that country. this will only lengthen the crisis and libya central as lamb is not against collaboration and understanding with the international community that wants to establish the rim and strong. that can have been official relationships with everyone in africa, in europe as well, but no prospect of a deal with with his father's old, the ally who then the they say will into the ca with united i will come out and eat for himself very soon. but my understanding from my discussions with him and other people around him that he's heart is open for

any one to truly create or bring back actually a, somewhere in libya for olivia, how do you even live in the nato back candidate? i mean, baby, when it was part of the libyan government, even before 2011, not in a high ranking position. he was a business man involved in some development projects in the country. and we know him very well. and if he decides to work for a united sovereign country, as he goes back to his roots as a truly be and citizen back is the faces in the libyan process of development in the ninety's and the 2000, then he is what? come, you see we are not against individuals. we are against agenda. if you work for a liberated peaceful mccrass's. libby as in we work with you. but the problem is,

isn't it given the interior minister and said that security threats in cyber put the christmas c elections in doubt? i have to are, has a kind of veto. all used to do is send fighters and then the interior minister and the g and a we'll just go i know elections of christmas eve. well, think about this actually is the only candidate who is insisting that the elections should take place in 2 weeks time. every other candidate is hoping for the elections to be postponed. now everyone else, every, every candidate has security. very good security. they have malicious with them. they have armed groups. different islam is the only one who does not have malicious support to him. i'm to groups and yet with the security situation being very hard for him, he insist to support the elections on the 24th of december. this is because he

is so confident that the libyan people as well will be victorious while the others are scared of the piece for. but if you can see, and they want to respond the elections so they can make agreements with each other . they can consult their foreign masters. they can come back with new ideas to lengthen their to stay in power with the groups in the east and the west. of the country, quite apart from the military and catastrophe in libya, the thousands and thousands drowning in the mediterranean since britain bomb your country. let alone the channel with england and france as it beat any contact between the good every campaign and the total. any or shell? i mean it's refugees, but it's also about oil on the mediterranean. that's why you presumably unsafe, believe britain bomb. and the stabilized libya in the 1st place, not about managerial intervention at all,

is no secret that libya was bombed because of its free can liberation of projects. and because of what he did in libya and terms of liberating the libyan economy, liberating libyan from foreign control. in the future, we seek to bring back libya that is for libyans. this of course, does not mean that we seek hostile relations with the west or the east. we seek to work with our brothers be contact rather than as we know, contact here as i understand and we spoke to the boss, black petroleum, be denied that he did. i was there is in lithia, they have their guys and i'm hoping for either candidates to win over. but i assure everyone that's in the newly yeah. when islam reach is the position of the

president, of this new libya will be a peaceful land and a member of the international community which would include economical gratian political corporation. but all based on a sovereign country, not on a satellite country belonging to the western powers. obviously, nato nations deny that they never wanted to control the oil. it was all about humanity. i'm going to ask you, given that your information minister to mama get effie and he was of course, brutally murdered on camera where we're going to actually be talking to someone about thomas and car or the quino fossil leader who was a voice for the global south was assassinated. some people said linked to the cia. this biography says that it was a good efie who said, you have to eliminate sign kara,

according to libby an interpreter. things aren't going well with her and that the u . s. embassy reported it was disaffected with sunk are included on the plan killing because some kara would want to see to live in demands. someone who is behind the green movement and the liberation of africa. you believe that to your old boss had anything to do with the killing of africa, che guevara reputedly? absolutely not. i actually even consulted with the leaders worked with my son got on his company. we and other african leaders from the late seventy's out of the eighty's. we supported the revolutionary movement and working our fast so for years and years. and the revolutionary leaders of working on a train in libya and typically under the supervision of daffy himself. from the very beginning, we realized that there were internal conflicts between the leaders of the booking i

solution. and we tried our best to the extent that we condition our support and held on a complex being eliminated and the unity of illusion. but as time passed, it clearly as well as to the tribe of back child 14, if i so, and different conflicting interests of the revolutionary leader. is that the assassination of mass i'm kind of took place that he was very upset and that he said, well, what happened? but of course, decided to continue supporting the lucian and booking fossil because with our sadness for the loss of santa we had to continue the project of the african liberation. and we did that for many years to come. so this is just that, that he wasn't low and the assassination of such

a great african leader is that it was abraham. thank you. thank you very much. actually after the break with 3 and a half 1000000, be a need of humanitarian assistance in the west african nation of became a faster this christmas eve africa che guevara, thomas and kara had not been assassinated and who killed him. we investigate all this. i'm all coming up upon to have going underground. ah ha monitors driven by drink shaped bankers and those with dares sinks. we dare to ask

oh ah ah, welcome back. in the past few days, a prime minister affiliated to an ex president of the west african mineral rich nation to begin a fair so suddenly resigned. christoph debir, i worked with blaise compar, who overthrew a man known as africa's che guevara, thomas and kara. joining me now from new york is his biographer, brian peterson, who's booked, thomas ankara. a revolutionary and cold war africa is out now. thank you so much, brian. for coming on just before we get to the man man himself, we were talking to the information minister of mammography. now advising saved gadhafi ahead of christmas eve's elections in libya. um he categorically denies any

libyan involvement in the assassination of thomas ankara. before we get to who he is, why in your book do you claim her lots of links to were or so the statements one saying the elimination of st kara was on the mama godaddy's rader. or where do you get all that from given? we've had this denial. yeah, i mean, i've, i've, you know, read through a lot of us embassy cables and talk to revolutionary leadership. a lot of the colleagues us and kara, thomas and cars. uncle was the listen car was actually broken, ave ambassador to libya during the revolution and was, was very close to lot of the action it was going on there. and we know is it, you know, some cars relationship changed over time with the, i mean, initially cannot be tried to, you know, helps and car resolve. certain economic problems cannot be helped us on car take power by providing weapons via gun. and you know, so the relationship was pretty solid initially, but it deteriorated rather rapidly. and, and,

and mainly because some car didn't want to allow libya using berks bertina as a training base for a plan to warn liberia. and also some car refuse to accept the green book to sort of a guiding source. so, you know, cut out, he was taylor, and also you mentioned that i'd want to hear it. i better say this in a donation media. we don't even hear about africa except as regards charity and and g o z and basically they're poor. we see the loads of minerals, 4th largest gold exporter in, in africa. and i'm sure they will be campaigns, given the 2700000 have been forced to free their homes 30 and 4400000 in need of humanitarian assistance today. and of end of christmas. you're gonna have to tell us a, you know, the pandemic. mm. hm, catalyzed, concerned about i m f, restructuring plans of health services, who, who was thomas and kara, and why i suppose most relevant today to the global south as we suffolk, sharon of iris. why did he detest the idea of age from rich countries?

i think that it was, you know, part of his policy to, you know, bring about a fair society. right. and so he had a vision that was very global and orientation. he saw the poverty, you know, in his country being rude and corruption that facilitated by french, neo colonialism by extension with what he called imperialism. which is to say, the capitalist world economy. and so, you know, he was fighting and the ways in which, in france used economic, military power in africa to maintain control over resource and political systems. and so obviously he blames, you know, the internal leadership, you know, what he saw corrupt as being, inextricably linked, imperialism. and so, you know, he was obviously taking on the world capital a system, a system that you know, had ensnared african countries in indebtedness. and so he took a stand against, you know, the repayment of these deaths that went back to, you know, the colonial here. and so they're paying, you know, high interest rates like 20 percent interest rates on loans and debt. and so, you know, and car wasn't against honoring den,

but who's against illegal or immoral debts that have been accrued by corrupt liter? so actually, you know, i mean, he argued that france owed africa money, you know, so he was calling for african countries to come together in the united front to oppose debt repayment. while the i m f says they are a because of cove. it relaxing some of the debt repayment. you mentioned the france. i don't know whether there was front french involvement in this circled african che guevara. when you're writing this book, were you surprised that france? yeah, i mean, you got us cables that france still wants to keep sun, kara, this in car, a dossier secret. now, i mean, i'm not surprised at all. what are they covering up? it's a good question. i mean, in terms of francis roll, i mean in the queue of october 15, 1007, we have to see the evidence obviously. and, and what i've seen in the u. s. embassy cables. and also talking to over 100 people, is that, you know, france was continually seeking to undermine the revolution. and what i see in the u

. s. documents is this, this pattern of french interventions long these lines to undermine the revolution, to stabilize a revolution. and eventually hoping to remove a car from power. i mean, we know that you know, that the french government was considering military interventions, rooms and car from power. just a couple months after you took our himself. and so their concerns were very broad. i mean, they were concerned about what was going on in chandelier involvement in the, in the region and chad, this an area of cooperation with americans. they weren't really that concerned about soviet expansion in the region. but they were concerned about libyan cannot be in shad, especially in west africa. and so we also have to acknowledge, you know, the neighboring countries like corporate molly were very concerned about the threat of the, the revolution. this, of the contagion of the revolution read. they can, they come out of your book as the u. s. proxies. i have to say, and you, you know, it's, i might say, you're suspiciously nice to the cia in the sense that they see he's capricious with

good afternoon libya. gorbachev doesn't like him very much and ok, washington politicians don't like sign kara, but he doesn't pose a threat to cia activities in africa. this is an extension of your sworn policy. and we know that during the reagan administration, i mean, they just effort to roll back the so called threat of communism. and so they saw san car, you know, hanging out. fidel castro remark adolphe and they were alarm. and so for the americans and for the french, you know, the red line was really the expansion living influence. i mean, so they took, they took, they were there, they're hostile towards a car. there's no question about it. i'm, you didn't have major economic interest in burkina faso and they cut most the funding. the piece cor was gone. they've been expelled by some car. so, you know, i think that, you know, there's a hostility was there. i don't see evidence that the cia had a sort of a guiding hand in assassination of some car. i haven't seen evidence of that. and

let me just add that some car was very diplomatically isolated during the final period. i mean, compar, i took advantage of that and you had a large number cannot be soldiers for part of us growing into some carfax, within the military that saw your state powers of past self enrichment. he was really trying to oppose that. so he was fighting against corruption and soldiers saw a chance to make the most of being in power. yeah, i mean, clearly a humble man given what you say about his own life and the importance of fighting corruption. um, you do say, michelle, candice, who of the i m f. back then i met him once and the u. s. embassy in the year of who is there, pressured him to accept new liberal policies. he refused, but at the same time he and even jerry law rawlings is thought of as quite a good african lee. they died about a year ago in ghana. they were all, they were getting aid. i mean, the st car are getting aid from paris as opposed to the washington d. c. i m f o. well bank. right?

i mean it's, it's true and it's, it's, i'm, and i appreciate you complicating the story because it is, it is very complex. so many different points in history, france actually tried to work with some current, even tolerated quite a bit of revolutionary rhetoric targeting france. but you know, some car expected to be treated as an equal, as a peer head of state, you know, a fully sovereign country. so, you know, he refused to accept his country, being a vassal in this neo colonial relationship. and so some car, i mean, he knew that he couldn't break with, with france completely. i mean is seen are the revolutionary state, was still depending on foreign aid, as you suggest there, especially from france, about 3040 percent of the state budget came from france. right. so a transition to greater sovereignty to greater. you know, i'll talk you and i was going to take time, you know, in 4 short years i just wasn't possible. and so, you know, my research shows that it was in cars reluctance to accept. and i remember green 1970 eventually led to many of the economic problems and a lot of political support within it. the seen are and so he was hemorrhaging internal allies eventually not made easy for, for compar to take our weather very watching this in became of us are thinking of

starting a revolution like thing, cars, i suppose they should be informed that african joe biden soldiers are probably there right now, what do you think? um, what you think sicaro would think of the fact that africa, us soldiers a tramping down down the country, especially in relation to the fact that he knew. and he took inspiration from cobra, the crewman. lemme something in common with all these people, che guevara, that the, the marsh is, as it were, of anti imperialist ideas in the global south. i mean, i mean, he was an anti imperialist. there's no question about it. i mean, he, he saw imperialism in a very more sort of complex way. i mean, you know, one of his, when in one of his major states on, appealing to imperialism is more of a cultural thing. i mean, obviously, there were troop landings. there were military interventions, those things were all a concern. i mean, didn't, he didn't see, you know, bertina faso is potentially dealing with the military invasion by the united states along the lines of granada or other place in the world, nicaragua, at the time. but i think that if you saw it was going on and burkina faso today is

you're suggesting, i think he'd be deeply trouble. and i think i think you'd be wanting the, the country to come together to deal with insurgency in the northern parts of virginia fossa. without the help of say, france, united states would, which in many ways just me the problem a lot worse. i mean, on the other side of the country, eritrea now allied with the v o, b, a fighting a. you will nation back t p l f in to grey. there's food security in eritrea pursuing an independent path. with all the caveats that he thank ira did take 8, he took usaid relief, gimme the 8 things that are not associated with great revolutionary and ever after all, um, do you believe that it is legacy really lives on the fact that he wanted more participation from women in african societies all across the continent and his obsession with environmental politics,

which arguably would fit in with good effie and the importance of green politics. yeah, i mean, i think those are really, really good points. i mean, i think that is the car had a certain kind of vision of society, almost of utopian vision. you know, $11.00 which, you know, women to be equal to men in which, you know, the citizens would be good custodians of their natural environment as you're suggesting. he went to in the kitchen. yeah. i mean, i think there was a lot of pushback against that. i mean, you had this head of state who was preaching from discourse and lobbying and pushing for women's liberation. but you had a kind of a patriarchy from below that was, was responding to that. so it, it actually was a huge liability for him and he didn't have a very strong male constituency behind, and it was backing as feminist policies. but certainly that was one of the main pillars of the revolution was, was liberating women. and he went away. i don't align with this and you know, i think that, you know, it's one of the reasons why he's so popular today and, and why he has a certain kind of legacy in a rather pressure one that you're mentioning, their respect to environmentalism,

feminism taking on the challenging debt repayment, those sorts of things, i mean to the certain saliency there, that you see absent and other political figures from that era. i mean, obviously the situation that this christmas looks had to be terrifying. i suppose, a thought experiment. he was always supporting the andrea apartheid struggle in south africa to building nelson mandela when he was in jail. if mandela had been released before his assassination during south african troops could have supported him in the story might have been different in millions of people wouldn't be starving. this chris was in beginning it's difficult to say, i mean, you know, when, when, when police compared to power, he didn't depend on any foreign troops, right? i mean, at the time, you know, because of the frank ober cannot be defense agreements, he only had like $25.00 french troops who are there, there are, there is trainers or the national on the remaining butch law. so, you didn't have troops intervening, anything offered if you didn't have

a library interest, it was mainly to pull them, but the military muscle of a composite enabled him to take power. i do think, however, if you did have troops, you know, being enter on the other side of things that could have kept the balance on car saver. arguably, if he decided to play by the neo liberal rules, the game that the united states in france were trying to forest on car. he probably still be in power to the day or and if he was corrupt and if he was correct, good point, you know, be, and thank you. thank you so much. that's in the show will be back on wednesday when we investigate political violence. and colonial rule was one of the greatest living public intellectuals, my mood mom, donnie. until then, even touch my social media. tell us who you think budded, thomas on car? ah

for right now, there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that he's fancy and sugary and salty and it is not at the individual level. it's not individual well power, and if we go on believing that never change is obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment in what's driving the obesity epidemic. it's corporate.

in a i'd like to have a po to just for media, talks to stop for the night to expansion towards rushes, borders in a telephone conversation with britain's prime minister boris johnson made on going speculation over the situation. ukraine and accusations towards russia to a $150.00 dead off to toll night rip across american states. but the disasters also on the line, the country's deep political divide with some politicians already trying to score points from the tragedy. and the sudanese who say they've been betrayed and had their dreams destroyed. we've a special report into the 1000 strong protests gripping the capital where since october's coup ah.