the trail ah, when so many find themselves will depart. we choose to look for common ground. ah, a with i'm african retents and you're watching going underground. 8 years ago to day the south sydney civil war began a conflict seen in the west as the result of ancient tribal rivalries, but of these resentments actually the result of decades. and in some cases, centuries of colonial rule, a new book by one of the greatest living public intellectuals. my word,

ma'am dani looked at the roots of religious and ethnic conflict and shows how the colonial powers that facilitated them for their own gains have also warped and narrowed the mechanisms through it's justice and equity can be sought. the book neither settle nor native, the making an unmaking of permanent minorities is out now and mahmud bomb, danny joins me from new york. thank you so much for events. i'm. i'm down event coming on. i better start with the fact that over here, people are talking about rescuing those, the collaborating with nato invasions of afghanistan, and there's always he no talk of nuremberg in that case. but you are alone. dissenter on the african union commission into su dawn, tell me how nuremberg emerges is a climax of imperialism, rather than justice after nazi defeats since nearburg rules, we often talk about them on this journey show following orders is not good. yorba has held up as the greatest achievement that came out of terrible times. post 945.

nuremberg is said to be the 1st international court. a richer upheld the principal individual responsibility and upheld this as coming on responsibility in the course of that. nuremberg over looked then just overlooked but completely sidestepped the political project of the state. and therefore, a violence committed by the stake. a state by definition cannot commit crimes. because a crime is violation of the law district. individuals in the states, individual state, or haitians can commit crimes, but not perfect. if you want to look at state violence or state authorized violence, as opposed to violence by individuals who overstep stage with horrid. if you want

to look at state authorized violence, you have to go to the politics of it. you have to look at violence as a political and not coming. now, if i go to south to done, i want to take it slightly longer view. and the longer you takes us back to sort of the middle of the 1900 century until the middle of the 1900 century . the british imperial project was what we call the civilizing mission. as you come into the colony, you wipe the state clean and you civilize them through the introduction of western law and through western education, you created minority which would look like you talk like not look like you, but top like you think like you. and which would be an intermediate in the colonial

. well, that project failed completely with 1857 appraising in india. when the majority excluded rebuilt, the indian army treated by the british mutiny against the british. there was a big debate in the british establishment. and end the end, the turnaround comes with the thinking over henry may, a handyman says look, you didn't understand in society. what we have to do is to understand it as a historical society and therefore to harness the agency of indians themselves to ruin india, to oppress or to arrest myself. i am hardly to do with the failure in ireland because you say them the source of it all, all is england's oldest colony over the 800 years island where what rewards were given for scalping of irish people. right, right. so to continue the story just just just a minute more britain,

then the lies is another project which is not the project to civilize the indians, but the project to conserve indian tradition. and this gives it the opportunity to skulk that tradition and to freeze it. and the tradition that button scalds is what it calls, religious law, customary law, and it sets, it divides is 2 different separate set of customs hinder customary law, muslim customary law, and sets up a chinese war between it. this project then expands with the defeat of britain in so done with my dia, late 19th century, and to bring this project of so done now the re, costs were done as a set of separate races was to call out of an african. and then a set of separate tribes tribes with their own tribal homeland,

et cetera. so by the time we come to south to done and the independence of south done south redone is already being ruled as a separate set of separate tribes. each tribe with its own homeland, each tribe reached its customary law. each tribe with its customer. so this is the country that blows open after south 2 guns, independence in 2013, 2011, because each tribe more or less, want it quick, quick sidebar. since we're talking about the deep historical roots a you, you talk about this idea that i think most people have the arabic zation of, of the world as we knew it. then you have a problem with the way it's been talked about that to falls into your criticisms of the way we have been deceived in our history books. as far as arab conquests influence within societies that worked well.

if i revise ation gives the idea, did the art of his migrate and occupied, calculated different countries and controlled it, but the items were very tight. so what does our, by zation me out of my zation men, that those who or the local population itself became up? why did they do it? they did this basically as a state building project and i explore this into done. for example, if you take the case of sudan robes, who came in from egypt to susan, these out of did not remain out of that. d. r. a biased sudanese, i rubbed, enlarge in your state building project around how soon it emerged in the 16th century. and there emerged in the contract between the king on, on the one hand and the merchants in the expanding merchant tongues. and these

merchants declared themselves not oriented to a local civilization, but pro cosmopolitan civilization ups. okay, what we're here to, to, why the, the, the reason why these post ottoman illusions arise in the, in the history books at the moment. i better get back, i suppose, to the united states. because you, you say of paramount importance is the 1st genocide in history. i know surrounding all of this is the d politicization in the history books of genocide. why do you, why do you say that? am what, where we got to in nuremberg is actually rooted in the genocide of native americans naziism hitler. they drew on the genocide of native americans. 2 things happened in the u. s. m. first was the genocide of native americans

and then was a solution. the final solution as to what to do with the native american to survive . we went to just quickly give a figure because you put it in the book, and people don't often repeat 75000000 people 95 percent of the pre colombian population. the final solution comes from abraham lincoln and lincoln is the same time as the emancipation of slaves after the civil war. lincoln now generalize is an institution called the reservation. and what the reservation does is it takes each genuine group as a tribe. and this tribe draws a circle around it. this is your home that. and this is a technique of depriving that group of most of the plant confining it to a small part of the land. then it says, here you live according to your custom, your custom is age old. and this custom is defined and enforced by your customary

leaders. and these leaders are not elected or anything to oversee this. they create a federal institution. and that, that federal institution is controlled by congress indians in the u. s. r. wards of congress. indians in the us do not belong to the indian reservation in india and in the reservation do not belong to the political entity. we know as the us, when the 1964 civil rights act was passed, it did not apply to indians because they are not a citizen. the reservation indians, especially had to be passed to 1966. but even that advisory act does not come for rights, which the court can enforce its advisory. so the us then,

when it conforms citizen to point indian, it has different degrees of indians, a different degrees of citizens, 1st class, 2nd class. so the puerto ricans are a different degree, like that. when naziism, when hitler comes, he, hitler said, coming to your lawyers to see what to do with jewish jews who are citizens of german. the coming to your lawyers looks at the american laws and says, hey, here is the. so we have jews defined as a special category of citizens. if you look at the african american case, the one drop rule, which is that any person with one drop of african blood is considered african in the us. okay. it says no, no, we will make it 25 percent. but then hitler takes the notion of the reservation and closure and turns it into the concentration camp. hitler is full of admiration for

the west, toward movement of the americans and the, the ability to decimate an entire people. so in that context, you can understand why it is so important to politicize human rights in 2021. today, given this kind of history are delineated in this book, you call, you say, neoliberalism is the hand made in of human rights div politicizing everything. but in a way, so didn't you're in book deeper that a size, everything. nuremberg brought it down to the individual. put the state how to do it . because for nuremberg to look at, the german state would have for november november would have had to look at the political project of naziism, the political project or not to some was to remove minorities from german store it . so it and create germany is a pure nation state, all germans,

which is exactly what the allies were doing. eastern europe, exactly at the time. nuremberg trials were going on. germans were being exposed from all over eastern europe and ethnic states were being created in eastern europe by the allies themselves. you compare the allied camps to dachau and all their concentration camps. administered by britain, london, and washington. i cited those who compared them prevented my money. i'll stop you there more from one of the greatest living public intellectuals after this break with . ah, selective acknowledge has never been so readily available to every one across the globe, but overwhelmed by information. how can we distinguish the real signs from the one

being imposed upon us? we're living in a world where there are many people who have a vested interest in finding information, finding scientific evidence, and discredited. even the notion that science could provide the truth about the natural world in the pursuit of business goes large corporations are challenged strongly by scientific evidence. if you're emotionally invested and free markets, them climate change is a serious emotional threat. because dealing with that means we have to change our approach to business industries or on the war bar, attempting to debunk legitimate science by producing new evidence in science and lighting science. that's how ignorant is manufactured. they're constantly seeking to the rail science rolling using sy itself. mm hm. welcome back on celia talking just as colonialism in the nation states with

professor mahmoud mom on the author of neither settler nor native. is it smart to just give a another slight boy, the musical like hamilton, which has been very popular in recent years, manages to, to cover up genocide in a specific way like this, like it does in the musical agency. i haven't seen it. and in the popular imagination, these ideas are given no avenue. i've seen the musical and yes, it to the audience that comes out of that music is in a celebratory mode. it because the trees indicated, yes, we committed crimes the crime of slavery, but we have the moral courage to face up to it and to with it. and we can see it's another to progress in the process. the crime that we haven't had the moral courage to even except acknowledge is washed out. the audience

does not think about, and that's the genocide of the indians. and that's the containment in reservations on the surviving. but what do you think about the fact that as you say in the book graham, she angles they often to kind you appear to be saying to the united states and the exceptionalism and the protestant work ethics. these are the reasons you joyce, joy, this genocide as being all important in the myths we have about american amber. when i make a striking logic, same where they're on the left or on in the center or the right it. there is a one assumption that was common european would even liberalism acknowledge, is one collective identity without any question. and that is the nation. marx acknowledged marks claim that there were historical nations and non historical

nation. according to in historical nations, nations bound to have their own nation state and non historical nations would not cheap that it would live inside nation states other nations. so what i'm saying is that politically, this division between majority and minority is, is frozen as a permanent division insight nation states which are considered natural entities. and the creation of permanent minority is at the root of extreme violence. if you look at extreme violence throughout africa, it is a violence between a, it is a violence that involves those created under colonialism as problem. and then minorities, africa was after all, the british flame that in africa not i can country still know majorities. there

were only minorities african tribes, and after independence you have this struggle as to who would become a majority again to the civilizing dialectic, as you put it up, political violence. and in a moment, the i want to talk about your positive views about a different way forward, which you base around south africa. obviously, mandela nelson mandela considered a terrorist by nation nature, media in this country for so for so long. and why do you believe the negotiated settlement in south africa, which arguably is goes to the reservation of african people, greater inequality now than under apartheid. why, why do you, why do you prefer that south african model? i should say, i've interviewed nelson mandela before he died. mandela told me, we have to do with the i m, f, and world bank. tell us that seem to be the the end of the truth and reconciliation

committee. to me. i distinguish the truth and reconciliation commission from the negotiations that took place it come to truth and reckon t r c. it was very much like no, was it focused on individual? it brought individuals to the television stage for kind of the short trial, a performance. you only difference with your move with the nuremberg, whereas nuremberg was about crime and punishment. p r c was about crimes and forgiveness. but, but the mother was the se in the responsibilities individual responsible to the did a completely different process to place a company in the group in the negotiation to come to the park. there was a commission that the problem is political and we had to solve this political

problem. and the political problem is the exclusion of particular groups, permanent exclusion of particular groups, in this case, the vast majority. so the natural thing would have been within if and if an independent of some nation state was to be born, it will then be seen as a state of the black majority with with the whites. the indians, the colored has so many national minorities for that's not the route that south africa took. it took a different route. it went, if you look at, if you follow the language of the n c, it began as a language of black majority. but then it went on to speak of and non racial democracy. the south africa moment was the recognition by the n p, a movement that you are not fighting while you're fighting white's power. you are

not just fighting the power type. you had to come up with an alternative to apartheid. it was not just about turning the world upside down. it was about creating a new was. now apartheid had created 2 political categories based on which 2 people. one was raised, the other was tripe. what the anti apartheid movement managed to do was to deep politicize race was not to be fine, political participation based on race, but it has been unable to be politicized type. he does continue to accept the tribe as custom and tribal it and franchise meant and disenfranchisement as, as customary law. so if you look at south africa from 994, the white violence we have seen in south africa, the zeno for violence is not against white. it's not against race against the

tribal stranger. it's against the african who could come from outside the borders of south africa, which arguably was young suits. so be people in power, but across africa and is a theme in, in your book. you appear to be saying that n g o's basically govern the global south out of these ideas of post independent settlement, where the engineers do the work on the ground. and the african leaders attend submit to the top so. so increasingly we have had aid froze in 2 different directions. is the, there is the aid or the financial flows that come to an african economy as

a whole african political leaderships. and then there are financial flows which come to and jones, my international n, g o z, a local, then jeers. and so you have a form of governance, which is not accountable at all because it least the formal political leadership of africa is supposed to be accountable to the people. but the engineers have no accountability to the people they serve. the people they serve are recipients. they are consumers. the accountability is to where the funds from the accountability is to the donors outside. so it's a totally empty democratic models that we have in the n g o start. so in the book we have the i, c, c, not fit for purpose where my album here is of course when saddam was a big blaze, we have and joe's, as you say, dealing with a kind of new colonialism, a form of power you,

you cite the oslo accords as regards palestine, we're sell out by yasser arafat in, in your view. should palestinians not actually be that surprised at some ballast indian activists are about settler violence going on today and the head of christmas in the holy land in a few weeks time. maybe they shouldn't be that surprised, given what you write about as regards the path taken by the colonial settling of jews in israel. i mean, i think there are different tendencies within within israel and israel palestine a, there is the center violence. a rich is about continuing the not about getting rid of hook palestinians a from israel proper, but also from the west bank as much as possible. the problem of the settler

violence is that it does not have to go. it does, it does not. it does not have an idea what to do with the palestinians unless it's except for a genocide. ok, it is. no, it wants to extend the physical territory of it. formally, you know, it is around the historical lens of kids run in its own imagination. but what to do with the people on the land, it doesn't have a project to laid up before before the world has the obviously, the israeli government would completely deny any charge of the possibility of genocide as with those arming these really a government as it bombs syria and, and as it tries to climb down on the settlers, according to these railey government, just finally on political violence. tell me about how you see it and how you see it as a dialectic for both reform and what exactly it can be useful. it's something that

obviously people empower desperately, fear any kind of political violence. what role does it play? well on, unlike criminal violence, what political violence tells us is that there are addressed grievances and the challenge is to identify what these grievances are. in the case of today, in most cases, the unaddressed grievance is exclusion. exclusion from the political community or inclusion on the very an equal basis of the palestinians in the west bank are excluded palestinians in ga, exclude palestinians in side. israel are included in a one state, but on a very, i mean basis. this is the reason for political violence. so it

challenges us to think of a new political form, which is not based on the claim to be a nation. a nation is a cultural construct, state is a political construct. what we need is to separate the 2. so as to make it possible for people or different cultures, different belonging to live in the same territory. you can be an immigrant what you don't get me as an immigrant comes in except for an existing political structure. a settler comes in and wants to create his own state structure. so this is, this is the challenge professor bob, bob. natalie, thank you. thank you. so much that's over the show will be back on saturday, just speak to the lawyer of native american political prisoner leather belt, as well as a legendary voice. so 90 colonial struggles, terry. golly,

until then keep in touch my social media and let us know if you think colonial practices are still being used to divide us ah, a happy hey. then we have said at bay but does not allow them to get them outside and by then coffee. so she won't either by then is a shift of on a non worked for them so much. so if it was, if you had been moved to pope multiple engines,

your mom can connect to so that that gives you how was the rock. but it shows a lot more profitable. so this is a yeah, what i can, it's a button and how the who it man a loudly done this year. how and he comes in and say, hey, do what i'm seeing as a what i can now. maybe maybe maybe we can talk driven by dreamer shapes bank concur, sent those with

theirs sinks, we dare to ask ah, facebook's parents come to the admits in court. this 3rd party fact checks on nothing. bolton opinions fueling further allegations of bias and censorship on social media jails. the trying to protect young girls, denmark, sex, immigration means to get 2 months behind bars for separating refugee child wives from.